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Squeak/Pharo/Cuis on Android

Torsten Bergmann
What is the state of Squeak/Pharo/Cuis for Android tablets and phone?
Lots of questions:
 - what is the state of VM/images?
 - any comments/hints on devices, speed and memory consumption?
 - is it worth to buy one to run Smalltalk for own stuff?
 - anyone written apps with Smalltalk for Android?
 - is it possible to interface with native stuff. state of
   touch support, ...

Thanks for sharing any experience.

Thx
T.








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Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak/Pharo/Cuis on Android

Göran Krampe
On 03/03/2011 03:37 PM, Torsten Bergmann wrote:
> What is the state of Squeak/Pharo/Cuis for Android tablets and phone?
> Lots of questions:
>   - what is the state of VM/images?
>   - any comments/hints on devices, speed and memory consumption?
>   - is it worth to buy one to run Smalltalk for own stuff?
>   - anyone written apps with Smalltalk for Android?
>   - is it possible to interface with native stuff. state of
>     touch support, ...

Generally speaking, here are my silly notions in this area:

- Android is heavily oriented around Dalvik and the libraries for it (Java)

- Android will be *the* platform for private computing in the near
future IMHO. Yes, I really think so. Android 3.0 looks really hot.

- A Squeak/Pharo/Cuis for Android will never be more than a toy unless
we can tap into the Dalvik/Java platform.

- This means we REALLY need JNIPort or similar projects to work really,
really well in order to actually use the libraries in full.

...or we need to get Squeak running inside/on-top-of Dalvik somehow.

Weird ideas:
        - PotatoSqueak is a port of the Squeak VM to java. Run that on Dalvik
and hey...
        - PySqueak using Pypy could probably generate a fast Squeak VM running
in java bytecode which possibly also could be run on Dalvik.

Both the above approaches would probably make interfacing with
Dalvik/Java much simpler.

...or just try using SilverSmalltalk or such. ;)


regards, Göran

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Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak/Pharo/Cuis on Android

Stéphane Ducasse
I would be interested in any attempts to produce native bytecode on java vm for pharo.
Now this is the usual equation: money and money or time.
JSqueak or Potatos squeak could be also interesting.

Stef


On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:02 PM, Göran Krampe wrote:

> On 03/03/2011 03:37 PM, Torsten Bergmann wrote:
>> What is the state of Squeak/Pharo/Cuis for Android tablets and phone?
>> Lots of questions:
>>  - what is the state of VM/images?
>>  - any comments/hints on devices, speed and memory consumption?
>>  - is it worth to buy one to run Smalltalk for own stuff?
>>  - anyone written apps with Smalltalk for Android?
>>  - is it possible to interface with native stuff. state of
>>    touch support, ...
>
> Generally speaking, here are my silly notions in this area:
>
> - Android is heavily oriented around Dalvik and the libraries for it (Java)
>
> - Android will be *the* platform for private computing in the near future IMHO. Yes, I really think so. Android 3.0 looks really hot.
>
> - A Squeak/Pharo/Cuis for Android will never be more than a toy unless we can tap into the Dalvik/Java platform.
>
> - This means we REALLY need JNIPort or similar projects to work really, really well in order to actually use the libraries in full.
>
> ...or we need to get Squeak running inside/on-top-of Dalvik somehow.
>
> Weird ideas:
> - PotatoSqueak is a port of the Squeak VM to java. Run that on Dalvik and hey...
> - PySqueak using Pypy could probably generate a fast Squeak VM running in java bytecode which possibly also could be run on Dalvik.
>
> Both the above approaches would probably make interfacing with Dalvik/Java much simpler.
>
> ...or just try using SilverSmalltalk or such. ;)
>
>
> regards, Göran
>


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Re: Squeak/Pharo/Cuis on Android

Dimitry Golubovsky
In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
Hi,

Göran Krampe wrote:


...or we need to get Squeak running inside/on-top-of Dalvik somehow.

Weird ideas:
        - PotatoSqueak is a port of the Squeak VM to java. Run that on Dalvik
and hey...
        - PySqueak using Pypy could probably generate a fast Squeak VM running
in java bytecode which possibly also could be run on Dalvik.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well the original discussion on the Squeak ML declined into the OLPC
issues (back to Intel that is ;)

Let's continue here.

Thanks for the hints, I looked into these projects, but:

Potato Squeak (JSqueak) doesn't seem alive. I tried to run it on my PC
with some recent Java (don't remember which version, same as I use to
compile Android stuff). Very slow, crashed all the time. Plus image
version is 2.x ...

PySqueak seems like the repo is gone. Also, it's old too.

Anyway, wrt translation of Squeak/Pharo VM to Java. How much labor
would it take to change VMMaker so it generates Java code instead of
C? Given some similarity between the two languages syntax?

I need to move on with the native port because my endpoint is in a
concrete application rather than the port itself. But would anyone be
interested in adjusting VMMaker?

Thanks.

--
Dimitry Golubovsky

Anywhere on the Web

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Re: Squeak/Pharo/Cuis on Android

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann

On Mar 4, 2011, at 4:29 PM, Dimitry Golubovsky wrote:

>
> Well the original discussion on the Squeak ML declined into the OLPC
> issues (back to Intel that is ;)
>
> Let's continue here.
>
> Thanks for the hints, I looked into these projects, but:
>
> Potato Squeak (JSqueak) doesn't seem alive. I tried to run it on my PC
> with some recent Java (don't remember which version, same as I use to
> compile Android stuff). Very slow, crashed all the time. Plus image
> version is 2.x ...
>
> PySqueak seems like the repo is gone. Also, it's old too.
>
> Anyway, wrt translation of Squeak/Pharo VM to Java. How much labor
> would it take to change VMMaker so it generates Java code instead of
> C? Given some similarity between the two languages syntax?
>
> I need to move on with the native port because my endpoint is in a
> concrete application rather than the port itself. But would anyone be
> interested in adjusting VMMaker?


This is *far* more complicated then that. An interpreter for Smalltalk written
in Java would be *very* slow.
So one would need to do a "JIT" that translates smalltalk to java... difficult,
and a huge project in itself.

The worst aspect: You need to be *the* expert on Java VM internals to do that.
I am doing Pharo because this is exactly where I do not want to go.

        Marcus

--
Marcus Denker  -- http://www.marcusdenker.de
INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD.


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Re: Squeak/Pharo/Cuis on Android

David T. Lewis
In reply to this post by Dimitry Golubovsky
On Fri, Mar 04, 2011 at 10:29:05AM -0500, Dimitry Golubovsky wrote:

> Hi,
>
> G??ran Krampe wrote:
>
>
> ...or we need to get Squeak running inside/on-top-of Dalvik somehow.
>
> Weird ideas:
>         - PotatoSqueak is a port of the Squeak VM to java. Run that on Dalvik
> and hey...
>         - PySqueak using Pypy could probably generate a fast Squeak VM running
> in java bytecode which possibly also could be run on Dalvik.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Well the original discussion on the Squeak ML declined into the OLPC
> issues (back to Intel that is ;)
>
> Let's continue here.
>
> Thanks for the hints, I looked into these projects, but:
>
> Potato Squeak (JSqueak) doesn't seem alive. I tried to run it on my PC
> with some recent Java (don't remember which version, same as I use to
> compile Android stuff). Very slow, crashed all the time. Plus image
> version is 2.x ...
>
> PySqueak seems like the repo is gone. Also, it's old too.
>
> Anyway, wrt translation of Squeak/Pharo VM to Java. How much labor
> would it take to change VMMaker so it generates Java code instead of
> C? Given some similarity between the two languages syntax?

I think this is a perfectly reasonable thing to consider. There is
of course a C code generator already in place in VMMaker, and there
is no reason that a Java code generator could not be written. Matched
up with some support code written in Java, the result would in
principle be a VM written entirely in Java with no clib calls,
FFI, JNI, etc.

I do not know what the resulting performance would be, and there
is no good way to really know without trying it. But it might very
well be good enough to produce a usable VM. My guess, based on
absolutely no data whatsoever, is that such a VM might run
perhaps 2 or 3 times slower than a standard interpreter VM.

I note that the C VMs gain a lot of their performance through the
C code inlining performed by the Slang translation (which is amazingly
effective by the way). I don't know if similar optimizations would
apply to a Java implementation, but it seems possible that a decent
Java generator with inlining might produce acceptable results.

> I need to move on with the native port because my endpoint is in a
> concrete application rather than the port itself. But would anyone be
> interested in adjusting VMMaker?

If someone writes the Java code generator, then I would be happy
to work on adjusting VMMaker to use it (and I'm sure others will
help also). I'm not offering to write the code generator, but I
think it would be great if someone wants to give it a try.

Dave


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Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak/Pharo/Cuis on Android

Janko Mivšek
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
.. there is a native Smalltalk on JavaScript VM on the way .. stay
tuned! (but not from me .. ;)

Such Smalltalk app can be then wrapped in pure Android, iOS etc. app
with technology like PhoneGap (http://www.phonegap.com).

I'm namely just preparing a presentation titled From Web to Android App
for tommorow local MobileCamp:Android http://www.mobilecamp.si/what/ ...

Janko

On 04. 03. 2011 11:04, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> I would be interested in any attempts to produce native bytecode on java vm for pharo.
> Now this is the usual equation: money and money or time.
> JSqueak or Potatos squeak could be also interesting.
>
> Stef
>
>
> On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:02 PM, Göran Krampe wrote:
>
>> On 03/03/2011 03:37 PM, Torsten Bergmann wrote:
>>> What is the state of Squeak/Pharo/Cuis for Android tablets and phone?
>>> Lots of questions:
>>>  - what is the state of VM/images?
>>>  - any comments/hints on devices, speed and memory consumption?
>>>  - is it worth to buy one to run Smalltalk for own stuff?
>>>  - anyone written apps with Smalltalk for Android?
>>>  - is it possible to interface with native stuff. state of
>>>    touch support, ...
>>
>> Generally speaking, here are my silly notions in this area:
>>
>> - Android is heavily oriented around Dalvik and the libraries for it (Java)
>>
>> - Android will be *the* platform for private computing in the near future IMHO. Yes, I really think so. Android 3.0 looks really hot.
>>
>> - A Squeak/Pharo/Cuis for Android will never be more than a toy unless we can tap into the Dalvik/Java platform.
>>
>> - This means we REALLY need JNIPort or similar projects to work really, really well in order to actually use the libraries in full.
>>
>> ...or we need to get Squeak running inside/on-top-of Dalvik somehow.
>>
>> Weird ideas:
>> - PotatoSqueak is a port of the Squeak VM to java. Run that on Dalvik and hey...
>> - PySqueak using Pypy could probably generate a fast Squeak VM running in java bytecode which possibly also could be run on Dalvik.
>>
>> Both the above approaches would probably make interfacing with Dalvik/Java much simpler.
>>
>> ...or just try using SilverSmalltalk or such. ;)
>>
>>
>> regards, Göran
>>
>

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Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak/Pharo/Cuis on Android

Tudor Girba
Sounds intriguing :)

Doru


On 4 Mar 2011, at 22:30, Janko Mivšek wrote:

> .. there is a native Smalltalk on JavaScript VM on the way .. stay
> tuned! (but not from me .. ;)
>
> Such Smalltalk app can be then wrapped in pure Android, iOS etc. app
> with technology like PhoneGap (http://www.phonegap.com).
>
> I'm namely just preparing a presentation titled From Web to Android App
> for tommorow local MobileCamp:Android http://www.mobilecamp.si/what/ ...
>
> Janko
>
> On 04. 03. 2011 11:04, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>> I would be interested in any attempts to produce native bytecode on java vm for pharo.
>> Now this is the usual equation: money and money or time.
>> JSqueak or Potatos squeak could be also interesting.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>> On Mar 3, 2011, at 11:02 PM, Göran Krampe wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/03/2011 03:37 PM, Torsten Bergmann wrote:
>>>> What is the state of Squeak/Pharo/Cuis for Android tablets and phone?
>>>> Lots of questions:
>>>> - what is the state of VM/images?
>>>> - any comments/hints on devices, speed and memory consumption?
>>>> - is it worth to buy one to run Smalltalk for own stuff?
>>>> - anyone written apps with Smalltalk for Android?
>>>> - is it possible to interface with native stuff. state of
>>>>   touch support, ...
>>>
>>> Generally speaking, here are my silly notions in this area:
>>>
>>> - Android is heavily oriented around Dalvik and the libraries for it (Java)
>>>
>>> - Android will be *the* platform for private computing in the near future IMHO. Yes, I really think so. Android 3.0 looks really hot.
>>>
>>> - A Squeak/Pharo/Cuis for Android will never be more than a toy unless we can tap into the Dalvik/Java platform.
>>>
>>> - This means we REALLY need JNIPort or similar projects to work really, really well in order to actually use the libraries in full.
>>>
>>> ...or we need to get Squeak running inside/on-top-of Dalvik somehow.
>>>
>>> Weird ideas:
>>> - PotatoSqueak is a port of the Squeak VM to java. Run that on Dalvik and hey...
>>> - PySqueak using Pypy could probably generate a fast Squeak VM running in java bytecode which possibly also could be run on Dalvik.
>>>
>>> Both the above approaches would probably make interfacing with Dalvik/Java much simpler.
>>>
>>> ...or just try using SilverSmalltalk or such. ;)
>>>
>>>
>>> regards, Göran
>>>
>>
>

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