SqueakSource down... again

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SqueakSource down... again

hernanmd
SqueakSource is down again. I'm tired of this situation, there is any
alternative "free" repository?
Cheers,

--
Hernán Morales
Information Technology Manager,
Institute of Veterinary Genetics.
National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET).
La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799.
Internal: 422
Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799.

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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

hernanmd
Thanks,
do nothing, just wait and see until SqueakSource turns completely unusable.

I don't know if people won't noticed or don't want to admit it, but
SqueakSource is down very often lately..

2011/2/21 Fabrizio Perin <[hidden email]>:

> SqueakSource is up and running. I did restart it at 15:55 GTM+1 so i don't
> know how i can help you.
>
> 2011/2/21 Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]>
>>
>> SqueakSource is down again. I'm tired of this situation, there is any
>> alternative "free" repository?
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --
>> Hernán Morales
>> Information Technology Manager,
>> Institute of Veterinary Genetics.
>> National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET).
>> La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina.
>> Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799.
>> Internal: 422
>> Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799.
>>

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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Igor Stasenko
On 21 February 2011 16:31, Hernán Morales Durand
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thanks,
> do nothing, just wait and see until SqueakSource turns completely unusable.
>
> I don't know if people won't noticed or don't want to admit it, but
> SqueakSource is down very often lately..
>

Which is a good sign, because it indicating that there are a lot of
activity comparing to couple years before :)

I don't know, maybe we should test-drive the different (newer)
VM+image combinations for it? Is it possible?

> 2011/2/21 Fabrizio Perin <[hidden email]>:
>> SqueakSource is up and running. I did restart it at 15:55 GTM+1 so i don't
>> know how i can help you.
>>
>> 2011/2/21 Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>> SqueakSource is down again. I'm tired of this situation, there is any
>>> alternative "free" repository?
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> --
>>> Hernán Morales
>>> Information Technology Manager,
>>> Institute of Veterinary Genetics.
>>> National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET).
>>> La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina.
>>> Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799.
>>> Internal: 422
>>> Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799.
>>>
>
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Frank Shearar
In reply to this post by hernanmd
On 2011/02/21 15:31, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:
> Thanks,
> do nothing, just wait and see until SqueakSource turns completely unusable.

Maybe cut out the sarcasm. You waited an entire 29 minutes to complain
that volunteers who might not be in your timezone aren't responding
quickly enough for your tastes.

By the way, it looks rather unbroken from here.

frank

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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

hernanmd
You're right, we should continue expecting a human-robot volunteer to
press the button every time the machine is broken, and that's very
kind attitude.

Hernán

2011/2/21 Frank Shearar <[hidden email]>:

> On 2011/02/21 15:31, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:
>>
>> Thanks,
>> do nothing, just wait and see until SqueakSource turns completely
>> unusable.
>
> Maybe cut out the sarcasm. You waited an entire 29 minutes to complain that
> volunteers who might not be in your timezone aren't responding quickly
> enough for your tastes.
>
> By the way, it looks rather unbroken from here.
>
> frank
>
>

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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Guillermo Polito
But the problem is that we have no alternatives, and if we want some, we have to build them :).  It's not just about complaining and waiting for the others to solve our problems.

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
You're right, we should continue expecting a human-robot volunteer to
press the button every time the machine is broken, and that's very
kind attitude.

Hernán

2011/2/21 Frank Shearar <[hidden email]>:
> On 2011/02/21 15:31, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:
>>
>> Thanks,
>> do nothing, just wait and see until SqueakSource turns completely
>> unusable.
>
> Maybe cut out the sarcasm. You waited an entire 29 minutes to complain that
> volunteers who might not be in your timezone aren't responding quickly
> enough for your tastes.
>
> By the way, it looks rather unbroken from here.
>
> frank
>
>




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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

hernanmd
Discussing alternatives is a start for a solution, and as I've seen
from the posts above we have alternatives, we do not have consensus.

2011/2/21 Guillermo Polito <[hidden email]>:

> But the problem is that we have no alternatives, and if we want some, we
> have to build them :).  It's not just about complaining and waiting for the
> others to solve our problems.
>
> On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> You're right, we should continue expecting a human-robot volunteer to
>> press the button every time the machine is broken, and that's very
>> kind attitude.
>>
>> Hernán
>>
>> 2011/2/21 Frank Shearar <[hidden email]>:
>> > On 2011/02/21 15:31, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> do nothing, just wait and see until SqueakSource turns completely
>> >> unusable.
>> >
>> > Maybe cut out the sarcasm. You waited an entire 29 minutes to complain
>> > that
>> > volunteers who might not be in your timezone aren't responding quickly
>> > enough for your tastes.
>> >
>> > By the way, it looks rather unbroken from here.
>> >
>> > frank
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>



--
Hernán Morales
Information Technology Manager,
Institute of Veterinary Genetics.
National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET).
La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799.
Internal: 422
Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799.

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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Michael Haupt-3
Hi,

at HPI, we have a SqueakSource with a GemStone backend. The only downtimes we experienced were due to necessary maintenance.

Best,

Michael

Am 21.02.2011 um 19:21 schrieb Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]>:

> Discussing alternatives is a start for a solution, and as I've seen
> from the posts above we have alternatives, we do not have consensus.
>
> 2011/2/21 Guillermo Polito <[hidden email]>:
>> But the problem is that we have no alternatives, and if we want some, we
>> have to build them :).  It's not just about complaining and waiting for the
>> others to solve our problems.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> You're right, we should continue expecting a human-robot volunteer to
>>> press the button every time the machine is broken, and that's very
>>> kind attitude.
>>>
>>> Hernán
>>>
>>> 2011/2/21 Frank Shearar <[hidden email]>:
>>>> On 2011/02/21 15:31, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> do nothing, just wait and see until SqueakSource turns completely
>>>>> unusable.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe cut out the sarcasm. You waited an entire 29 minutes to complain
>>>> that
>>>> volunteers who might not be in your timezone aren't responding quickly
>>>> enough for your tastes.
>>>>
>>>> By the way, it looks rather unbroken from here.
>>>>
>>>> frank
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Hernán Morales
> Information Technology Manager,
> Institute of Veterinary Genetics.
> National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET).
> La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina.
> Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799.
> Internal: 422
> Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799.
>

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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Miguel Cobá
El lun, 21-02-2011 a las 19:25 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió:
> Hi,
>
> at HPI, we have a SqueakSource with a GemStone backend. The only downtimes we experienced were due to necessary maintenance.

I think the number of users that hit squeaksource.com vs HPS's own
everyday is a key factor in the perceived performance and net uptime of
each installation.

Cheers.

>
> Michael
>
> Am 21.02.2011 um 19:21 schrieb Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Discussing alternatives is a start for a solution, and as I've seen
> > from the posts above we have alternatives, we do not have consensus.
> >
> > 2011/2/21 Guillermo Polito <[hidden email]>:
> >> But the problem is that we have no alternatives, and if we want some, we
> >> have to build them :).  It's not just about complaining and waiting for the
> >> others to solve our problems.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Hernán Morales Durand
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> You're right, we should continue expecting a human-robot volunteer to
> >>> press the button every time the machine is broken, and that's very
> >>> kind attitude.
> >>>
> >>> Hernán
> >>>
> >>> 2011/2/21 Frank Shearar <[hidden email]>:
> >>>> On 2011/02/21 15:31, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> do nothing, just wait and see until SqueakSource turns completely
> >>>>> unusable.
> >>>>
> >>>> Maybe cut out the sarcasm. You waited an entire 29 minutes to complain
> >>>> that
> >>>> volunteers who might not be in your timezone aren't responding quickly
> >>>> enough for your tastes.
> >>>>
> >>>> By the way, it looks rather unbroken from here.
> >>>>
> >>>> frank
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Hernán Morales
> > Information Technology Manager,
> > Institute of Veterinary Genetics.
> > National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET).
> > La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina.
> > Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799.
> > Internal: 422
> > Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799.
> >
>

--
Miguel Cobá
http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz
http://miguel.leugim.com.mx




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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Tobias Pape
In reply to this post by Michael Haupt-3
Am 2011-02-21 um 19:25 schrieb Michael Haupt:
> Hi,
>
> at HPI, we have a SqueakSource with a GemStone backend. The only downtimes we experienced were due to necessary maintenance.

… and I'm working on bringing that to Seaside 3.
When my examinations are over, I will release my results of that
projects :). It's almost done™.

So Long,
        -Tobias



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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Michael Haupt-3
In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
Hi,

Am 21.02.2011 um 19:31 schrieb Miguel Cobá <[hidden email]>:
>> at HPI, we have a SqueakSource with a GemStone backend. The only downtimes we experienced were due to necessary maintenance.
>
> I think the number of users that hit squeaksource.com vs HPS's own
> everyday is a key factor in the perceived performance and net uptime of each installation.

Those SqueakSource standstills *never* occurred after we transitioned to the now-running installation. Before switching, we often experienced standstills as well. That's two simple facts, and the number of users does not play a role in this observation.

I do not know the precise number of accesses per day, but around the end of the semester, when students are supposed to deliver their projects, it gets "hot". (I believe that, this term, we had some 80 students in 16 teams.)

No freezes.

Best,

Michael
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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Andreas.Raab
In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
On 2/21/2011 1:31 PM, Miguel Cobá wrote:
> El lun, 21-02-2011 a las 19:25 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió:
>> Hi,
>>
>> at HPI, we have a SqueakSource with a GemStone backend. The only downtimes we experienced were due to necessary maintenance.
>
> I think the number of users that hit squeaksource.com vs HPS's own
> everyday is a key factor in the perceived performance and net uptime of
> each installation.

It's not. We used SS at Teleplace at first and it died every other day
due to heavy commit/update frequency. When we switched to Gemstone we
never had these problems again. The problem with SS is that it has very
poor concurrency control. It just trips over its own feet when several
people commit and update at the same time. I was actually looking at
fixing these problems at first only to realize that SS was clearly
designed as a single-user system with very little thoughts being put
into where and how concurrency plays a role in various operations.

When we switched to Gemsource, these problems went away (though I'm not
fully sure why). But they did get replaced with others, most notably the
problem of our entire source code being locked in a system that we would
be unable to access if our license ever expires. And although we had a
sweet deal with Gemstone, due to the sweetness of the deal this happened
every six months and a couple of times in critical release situations.
After it happened once too many it was deemed to be no longer acceptable
and we switched to a simple WebDAV based repository. Which has served us
well.

Cheers,
   - Andreas

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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Eliot Miranda-2


On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2/21/2011 1:31 PM, Miguel Cobá wrote:
El lun, 21-02-2011 a las 19:25 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió:
Hi,

at HPI, we have a SqueakSource with a GemStone backend. The only downtimes we experienced were due to necessary maintenance.

I think the number of users that hit squeaksource.com vs HPS's own
everyday is a key factor in the perceived performance and net uptime of
each installation.

It's not. We used SS at Teleplace at first and it died every other day due to heavy commit/update frequency. When we switched to Gemstone we never had these problems again. The problem with SS is that it has very poor concurrency control. It just trips over its own feet when several people commit and update at the same time. I was actually looking at fixing these problems at first only to realize that SS was clearly designed as a single-user system with very little thoughts being put into where and how concurrency plays a role in various operations.

When we switched to Gemsource, these problems went away (though I'm not fully sure why). But they did get replaced with others, most notably the problem of our entire source code being locked in a system that we would be unable to access if our license ever expires. And although we had a sweet deal with Gemstone, due to the sweetness of the deal this happened every six months and a couple of times in critical release situations. After it happened once too many it was deemed to be no longer acceptable and we switched to a simple WebDAV based repository. Which has served us well.

Doesn't the change to licensing of GemStone/S change things?  http://www.gemstone.com/products/gemstone.  Now GemStone/S is free up to 16GB.  Dale, Martin, care to comment?
 

Cheers,
 - Andreas




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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Casey Ransberger-2
In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab
Oooh. WebDAV. Nice, familiar, term. We could also throw in rsync and get read only mirrors:)

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2/21/2011 1:31 PM, Miguel Cobá wrote:
El lun, 21-02-2011 a las 19:25 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió:
Hi,

at HPI, we have a SqueakSource with a GemStone backend. The only downtimes we experienced were due to necessary maintenance.

I think the number of users that hit squeaksource.com vs HPS's own
everyday is a key factor in the perceived performance and net uptime of
each installation.

It's not. We used SS at Teleplace at first and it died every other day due to heavy commit/update frequency. When we switched to Gemstone we never had these problems again. The problem with SS is that it has very poor concurrency control. It just trips over its own feet when several people commit and update at the same time. I was actually looking at fixing these problems at first only to realize that SS was clearly designed as a single-user system with very little thoughts being put into where and how concurrency plays a role in various operations.

When we switched to Gemsource, these problems went away (though I'm not fully sure why). But they did get replaced with others, most notably the problem of our entire source code being locked in a system that we would be unable to access if our license ever expires. And although we had a sweet deal with Gemstone, due to the sweetness of the deal this happened every six months and a couple of times in critical release situations. After it happened once too many it was deemed to be no longer acceptable and we switched to a simple WebDAV based repository. Which has served us well.

Cheers,
 - Andreas




--
Casey Ransberger


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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Nikolay Suslov
On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 6:54 AM, Casey Ransberger <[hidden email]> wrote:
Oooh. WebDAV. Nice, familiar, term. We could also throw in rsync and get read only mirrors:)

And are there any plans to realize WebDav server protocol just in Smalltalk for the new Andreas's WebServer or Kom? Swazoo/Aida, seems to be has just an unfinished and not working WebDav port  from it's VisualWorks brother.

Nikolay


On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2/21/2011 1:31 PM, Miguel Cobá wrote:
El lun, 21-02-2011 a las 19:25 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió:
Hi,

at HPI, we have a SqueakSource with a GemStone backend. The only downtimes we experienced were due to necessary maintenance.

I think the number of users that hit squeaksource.com vs HPS's own
everyday is a key factor in the perceived performance and net uptime of
each installation.

It's not. We used SS at Teleplace at first and it died every other day due to heavy commit/update frequency. When we switched to Gemstone we never had these problems again. The problem with SS is that it has very poor concurrency control. It just trips over its own feet when several people commit and update at the same time. I was actually looking at fixing these problems at first only to realize that SS was clearly designed as a single-user system with very little thoughts being put into where and how concurrency plays a role in various operations.

When we switched to Gemsource, these problems went away (though I'm not fully sure why). But they did get replaced with others, most notably the problem of our entire source code being locked in a system that we would be unable to access if our license ever expires. And although we had a sweet deal with Gemstone, due to the sweetness of the deal this happened every six months and a couple of times in critical release situations. After it happened once too many it was deemed to be no longer acceptable and we switched to a simple WebDAV based repository. Which has served us well.

Cheers,
 - Andreas




--
Casey Ransberger






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Re: [Pharo-project] SqueakSource down... again

Dale Henrichs
In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab
On 02/21/2011 11:49 AM, Andreas Raab wrote:

> On 2/21/2011 1:31 PM, Miguel Cobá wrote:
>> El lun, 21-02-2011 a las 19:25 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> at HPI, we have a SqueakSource with a GemStone backend. The only downtimes we experienced were due to necessary maintenance.
>>
>> I think the number of users that hit squeaksource.com vs HPS's own
>> everyday is a key factor in the perceived performance and net uptime of
>> each installation.
>
> It's not. We used SS at Teleplace at first and it died every other day
> due to heavy commit/update frequency. When we switched to Gemstone we
> never had these problems again. The problem with SS is that it has very
> poor concurrency control. It just trips over its own feet when several
> people commit and update at the same time. I was actually looking at
> fixing these problems at first only to realize that SS was clearly
> designed as a single-user system with very little thoughts being put
> into where and how concurrency plays a role in various operations.
>
> When we switched to Gemsource, these problems went away (though I'm not
> fully sure why). But they did get replaced with others, most notably the
> problem of our entire source code being locked in a system that we would
> be unable to access if our license ever expires. And although we had a
> sweet deal with Gemstone, due to the sweetness of the deal this happened
> every six months and a couple of times in critical release situations.
> After it happened once too many it was deemed to be no longer acceptable
> and we switched to a simple WebDAV based repository. Which has served us
> well.
>
> Cheers,
>     - Andreas
>

Andreas,

The SqueakSource problem is due to basically three things:

   1. issues with concurrent access to the file system
   2. reliance on old (buggy) Squeak vm

With GemStone all of the mcz files are stored as objects in the
repository and we've had decades of experience persisting objects to our
repository so the two SqueakSource problems don't exist in GemStone.

At the time that you started using GemStone our license terms were more
strict ... Since ESUG2010 your requirements would fit within the
standard license terms ...

Dale