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The "Seaside-core" vs. various "Seaside-addOn-X" packages distinction is
important for those who are already familiar with Seaside. And who already see clearly the heart of a web-application framework, separate from other facilities built on top of it. And who know where to find some such facilities or build it themselves to their need. But, as a matter of positioning (specially for some starting-out folks), we might tone down presenting "Seaside == Seaside-core" as a given. My 2 c :) Sophie "Michael Atkisson" <[hidden email]> wrote in message news:[hidden email]... > Imagine you are a business programmer, although you have heard of this > exciting new environment called Seaside. > > You would like to create forms that operate like the ones you do at work > such as in Oracle Forms. On further investigation, perhaps you manage > to make it through the tutorials. But when you go to do something real, > behold you discover that some of the most basic components such > displaying a datagrid from rows in a table are missing. Something that > you probablydo on at least 50% of your forms in Oracle > > Next you read the mailing list to see if anyone has a solution to the > problem. You discover that some people are decidely against putting > anything like that in the core because of their purist inclinations. > Others are simply say to go learn one of the javascript libraries > and do it that way. This is also a dilema as you don't know which one > would be good and this stuff isn't all that understandable to you. > > You don't know much about html, javascript, css, ajax, etc. and you > probably don't want to spend a year figuring it all out. > All you want to do is solve problems like the ones you have at work in > as straightforward a way as possible. > > How much further do you think that person is likely to go? _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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I might as well throw in a few cents... I am glad that so many people
think we are focusing on the right things. And really, we don't have a choice. Those of us who are "core developers" have spent more time thinking about and living in the internals of Seaside than most people will ever want/need to. It would be madness for us to focus on widgets and so on and expect the community at large to take on refining the core. So I think we are spending our time the only place it makes sense to spend it. At the same time, I don't believe that we are doing everything that we "should" or could be doing. I would love the experience of learning seaside to be easier. There are many aspects to this: documentation, component libraries (even if only samples, rather than reusable ones), deployment tools, etc, etc. Getting these done is just a matter of person-hours and, so far, the community just doesn't seem to have found them. But, I feel like that is beginning to change. In my presentation at ESUG this year I talked about the evolution of Seaside. I argued that we have gone through a Development/Experimentation phase, have largely finished a Stabilization phase, and are working on Optimization. There was a thread months ago on the list about what should be in the next version of Seaside and all the suggestions were things like the above (docs, components, deployment, etc). We can argue that those aren't part of the core but I think the key point is that the core has reached a relatively stable state and it's time to put some effort into Adoption (assuming we want more users, that is :) ). The core team is already trying to promote Adoption by focusing extensively on portability in 2.9 (and in 2.8). The support of all the major Smalltalk vendors is a huge win for us and we're seeing quite a bit of publicity by riding the back side of the Rails wave. But if we're going to win over all the people who come to our door we DO need a better getting started package. And Sophie's right that it doesn't help these people to define "Seaside" as Seaside-core. Seaside-core should be just that: the core of Seaside; not the entirety. So, no, component libraries aren't likely to end up in the "core" any time soon but that doesn't mean they can't be included in a 1-click download image. And that image is what new users will call "Seaside". Julian On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 5:07 AM, Sophie (itsme213) <[hidden email]> wrote: > The "Seaside-core" vs. various "Seaside-addOn-X" packages distinction is > important for those who are already familiar with Seaside. And who already > see clearly the heart of a web-application framework, separate from other > facilities built on top of it. And who know where to find some such > facilities or build it themselves to their need. > > But, as a matter of positioning (specially for some starting-out folks), we > might tone down presenting > "Seaside == Seaside-core" > as a given. > > My 2 c :) seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Tony Giaccone-2
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 1:56 AM, Tony Giaccone <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Where's the support contract? Where's the industry acceptance? Where can I > hire 5 experienced Seaside developers in the next week. How do I scale a > Seaside application? How do I manage multiple instances of Seaside > integrated with BigIP? Where are the articles in Information Week about > successful deployments with Seaside? All of those are barriers to entry for > Seaside in Corporate America. You're right that we're not going to take over Corporate America any time soon. The problem is, of course, there's a chicken and egg problem: it just doesn't make sense to start a "seaside.com" until there is enough demand from Corporate America to do so. People should think of Seaside as more of a bootstrapping startup than a big-bang venture capitalized startup. We're building our foundation and our dedicated community slowly and steadily. The risk is, I suppose, that we miss our chance to make it big and I guess some people worry about that more than others. In the meantime, there are many consultants (myself included -- I've got spare time at the moment if anyone is looking) who are more than happy to support corporate use of Seaside through training, customization, code review, or development. The rest will come with time (or it won't :) ). Julian _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Julian Fitzell-2
"Julian Fitzell" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
> So, no, component libraries aren't likely to end up in the "core" any > time soon but that doesn't mean they can't be included in a 1-click > download image. And that image is what new users will call "Seaside". Well said! _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Michael Atkisson
Michael,
We published a web widget toolkit which include basic controls such as buttons, textfields, listboxes and others, called SmallFaces. Currently we have a SFTable control and we are working in a DataGrid implementation. You can find some documentation on installing and using in the Squeak swiki : http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6088 Cheers Juan M. On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Michael Atkisson <[hidden email]> wrote: Imagine you are a business programmer, although you have heard of this _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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Hi Juan
do you have web site showing SmallFaces running? Stef On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:31 PM, Burella Juan M. wrote: > Michael, > We published a web widget toolkit which include basic controls > such as buttons, textfields, listboxes and others, called > SmallFaces. Currently we have a SFTable control and we are working > in a DataGrid implementation. You can find some documentation on > installing and using in the Squeak swiki : http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6088 > > Cheers > > Juan M. > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Michael Atkisson <[hidden email] > > wrote: > Imagine you are a business programmer, although you have heard of this > exciting new environment called Seaside. > > You would like to create forms that operate like the ones you do at > work > such as in Oracle Forms. On further investigation, perhaps you manage > to make it through the tutorials. But when you go to do something > real, > behold you discover that some of the most basic components such > displaying a datagrid from rows in a table are missing. Something > that > you probablydo on at least 50% of your forms in Oracle > > Next you read the mailing list to see if anyone has a solution to the > problem. You discover that some people are decidely against putting > anything like that in the core because of their purist inclinations. > Others are simply say to go learn one of the javascript libraries > and do it that way. This is also a dilema as you don't know which one > would be good and this stuff isn't all that understandable to you. > > You don't know much about html, javascript, css, ajax, etc. and you > probably don't want to spend a year figuring it all out. > All you want to do is solve problems like the ones you have at work in > as straightforward a way as possible. > > How much further do you think that person is likely to go? > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Burella Juan M.
Thanks Juan, I'll take a look. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
Hi Stef,
We have uploaded some examples at http://smallfaces.seasidehosting.st/ Regards Juan M.
On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 5:52 PM, stephane ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Juan _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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thanks this is great to see that lives :)
On Dec 24, 2008, at 6:49 AM, Burella Juan M. wrote: > Hi Stef, > > We have uploaded some examples at http://smallfaces.seasidehosting.st/ > > Regards > Juan M. > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 5:52 PM, stephane ducasse <[hidden email] > > wrote: > Hi Juan > > do you have web site showing SmallFaces running? > > Stef > > On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:31 PM, Burella Juan M. wrote: > > Michael, > We published a web widget toolkit which include basic controls such > as buttons, textfields, listboxes and others, called SmallFaces. > Currently we have a SFTable control and we are working in a DataGrid > implementation. You can find some documentation on installing and > using in the Squeak swiki : http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6088 > > Cheers > > Juan M. > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Michael Atkisson <[hidden email] > > wrote: > Imagine you are a business programmer, although you have heard of this > exciting new environment called Seaside. > > You would like to create forms that operate like the ones you do at > work > such as in Oracle Forms. On further investigation, perhaps you manage > to make it through the tutorials. But when you go to do something > real, > behold you discover that some of the most basic components such > displaying a datagrid from rows in a table are missing. Something > that > you probablydo on at least 50% of your forms in Oracle > > Next you read the mailing list to see if anyone has a solution to the > problem. You discover that some people are decidely against putting > anything like that in the core because of their purist inclinations. > Others are simply say to go learn one of the javascript libraries > and do it that way. This is also a dilema as you don't know which one > would be good and this stuff isn't all that understandable to you. > > You don't know much about html, javascript, css, ajax, etc. and you > probably don't want to spend a year figuring it all out. > All you want to do is solve problems like the ones you have at work in > as straightforward a way as possible. > > How much further do you think that person is likely to go? > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Burella Juan M.
Hi juan
is the code fully working? because the autocompleter does not seem to work for me. I always got confused with the anchor I could not see the hello. The currentSelection in nestedTabNabigation was not updated. All the rest worked :) Thanks again this was great to play with all the examples and it helps understanding what you are doing. Stef _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Michael Atkisson
Hey Julian,
first of all, congratulations on the good work! Out of curiosity, how much VA/VS exposure did your team have? The style of the Smallfaces code look very familiar and welcoming :) (#addSubPane, #addSubpanes, #paneNamed:, #when:send:to:) This is exactly what I guess most people need for Seaside - a full-fledged component set! Claus Hi Stef, > > We have uploaded some examples at http://smallfaces.seasidehosting.st/ > > Regards > Juan M. > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 5:52 PM, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@ > free.fr> wrote: > Hi Juan > > do you have web site showing SmallFaces running? > > Stef > > On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:31 PM, Burella Juan M. wrote: > > Michael, > We published a web widget toolkit which include basic controls such > as buttons, textfields, listboxes and others, called SmallFaces. > Currently we have a SFTable control and we are working in a DataGrid > implementation. You can find some documentation on installing and > using in the Squeak swiki : http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6088 > > Cheers > > Juan M. > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Michael Atkisson <michael_atkisson@ > comcast.net> wrote: > Imagine you are a business programmer, although you have heard of this > exciting new environment called Seaside. > > You would like to create forms that operate like the ones you do at > work > such as in Oracle Forms. On further investigation, perhaps you manage > to make it through the tutorials. But when you go to do something > real, > behold you discover that some of the most basic components such > displaying a datagrid from rows in a table are missing. Something that > you probablydo on at least 50% of your forms in Oracle > > Next you read the mailing list to see if anyone has a solution to the > problem. You discover that some people are decidely against putting > anything like that in the core because of their purist inclinations. > Others are simply say to go learn one of the javascript libraries > and do it that way. This is also a dilema as you don't know which one > would be good and this stuff isn't all that understandable to you. > > You don't know much about html, javascript, css, ajax, etc. and you > probably don't want to spend a year figuring it all out. > All you want to do is solve problems like the ones you have at work in > as straightforward a way as possible. > > How much further do you think that person is likely to go? > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list > [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/ > > cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside -- Claus Kick "Wenn Sie mich suchen: Ich halte mich in der Nähe des Wahnsinns auf. Genauer gesagt auf der schmalen Linie zwischen Wahnsinn und Panik. Gleich um die Ecke von Todesangst, nicht weit weg von Irrwitz und Idiotie." "If you are looking for me: I am somewhere near to lunacy. More clearly, on the narrow path between lunacy and panic. Right around the corner of fear of death, not far away from idiotism and insanity." _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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> Hey Julian, > > first of all, congratulations on the good work! > > Out of curiosity, how much VA/VS exposure did your team have? The > style of the Smallfaces code look very familiar and welcoming :) > > (#addSubPane, #addSubpanes, #paneNamed:, #when:send:to:) > > > This is exactly what I guess most people need for Seaside - a full- > fledged component set! Yes, help building one! The core team is focusing on making a core cooler but it does not mean that the community cannot create cool assets. Stef _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Claus Kick
Claus Kick wrote:
> Hey Julian, > > first of all, congratulations on the good work! > > Out of curiosity, how much VA/VS exposure did your team have? The style of the Smallfaces code look very familiar and welcoming :) > > (#addSubPane, #addSubpanes, #paneNamed:, #when:send:to:) > > > This is exactly what I guess most people need for Seaside - a full-fledged component set! > > Claus > > Have you looked at the WanderingAnnouncements framework, this might be very powerful in this context. http://www.squeaksource.com/Jetsam Keith _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
Hi Stephane,
Juan is travelling right now, so I will take the thread. 2008/12/24 stephane ducasse <[hidden email]> Hi juan The autocompleter is case-sensitive, so one must start typing the country name with an uppercase, maybe we should fix that in the example.
The "Scriptaculous>>Hello World!!!" appears at the end of the page. Yes, possibly it should appear below the link.
This is a bug, I will search the version in which worked fine. Thanks for your comments! Hernán
_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Claus Kick
Hello Claus,
2008/12/24 Claus Kick <[hidden email]> Hey Julian,
Your guess is correct. SmallFaces is based in the WindowBuilder/V Pro widget toolkit, which as you know, is a mature commercial visual GUI building software very popular in the 90's. There was two objectives for this decision: One is to provide a familiar interface for Smalltalkers which have been programming in Desktop GUI's but do not have experience with web developement. The other one is possibly result of the former, and is to reduce the specialization and educational obsolescence, product of the growing complexity of our industrialized societies. Cheers, Hernán This is exactly what I guess most people need for Seaside - a full-fledged component set! _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by keith1y
Hello Keith,
I used the announcements framework but didn't knew about a Seaside adapter, this looks promising! I'will take a look. Thanks. Hernán 2008/12/24 Keith Hodges <[hidden email]>
_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Michael Atkisson
That explains the 'intuitive use'!
I found Smallfaces much more intuitive for creating elements than the standard Seaside equivalent syntax. I was wondering why this might be, right up until Hernan's response below. I had used WindowBuilder/V in the early 90's and so the Smallfaces syntax was familiar not intuitive. Great work. Thanks! Taun ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hernán Morales Durand" <[hidden email]> To: "Seaside - general discussion" <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 2:54:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Seaside] Starting out Hello Claus, 2008/12/24 Claus Kick < [hidden email] > Hey Julian, first of all, congratulations on the good work! Out of curiosity, how much VA/VS exposure did your team have? The style of the Smallfaces code look very familiar and welcoming :) (#addSubPane, #addSubpanes, #paneNamed:, #when:send:to:) Your guess is correct. SmallFaces is based in the WindowBuilder/V Pro widget toolkit, which as you know, is a mature commercial visual GUI building software very popular in the 90's. There was two objectives for this decision: One is to provide a familiar interface for Smalltalkers which have been programming in Desktop GUI's but do not have experience with web developement. The other one is possibly result of the former, and is to reduce the specialization and educational obsolescence, product of the growing complexity of our industrialized societies. Cheers, Hernán This is exactly what I guess most people need for Seaside - a full-fledged component set! Claus Hi Stef, > > We have uploaded some examples at http://smallfaces.seasidehosting.st/ > > Regards > Juan M. > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 5:52 PM, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@ > free.fr > wrote: > Hi Juan > > do you have web site showing SmallFaces running? > > Stef > > On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:31 PM, Burella Juan M. wrote: > > Michael, > We published a web widget toolkit which include basic controls such > as buttons, textfields, listboxes and others, called SmallFaces. > Currently we have a SFTable control and we are working in a DataGrid > implementation. You can find some documentation on installing and > using in the Squeak swiki : http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6088 > > Cheers > > Juan M. > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Michael Atkisson <michael_atkisson@ > comcast.net > wrote: > Imagine you are a business programmer, although you have heard of this > exciting new environment called Seaside. > > You would like to create forms that operate like the ones you do at > work > such as in Oracle Forms. On further investigation, perhaps you manage > to make it through the tutorials. But when you go to do something > real, > behold you discover that some of the most basic components such > displaying a datagrid from rows in a table are missing. Something that > you probablydo on at least 50% of your forms in Oracle > > Next you read the mailing list to see if anyone has a solution to the > problem. You discover that some people are decidely against putting > anything like that in the core because of their purist inclinations. > Others are simply say to go learn one of the javascript libraries > and do it that way. This is also a dilema as you don't know which one > would be good and this stuff isn't all that understandable to you. > > You don't know much about html, javascript, css, ajax, etc. and you > probably don't want to spend a year figuring it all out. > All you want to do is solve problems like the ones you have at work in > as straightforward a way as possible. > > How much further do you think that person is likely to go? > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list > [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/ > > cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside -- Claus Kick "Wenn Sie mich suchen: Ich halte mich in der Nähe des Wahnsinns auf. Genauer gesagt auf der schmalen Linie zwischen Wahnsinn und Panik. Gleich um die Ecke von Todesangst, nicht weit weg von Irrwitz und Idiotie." "If you are looking for me: I am somewhere near to lunacy. More clearly, on the narrow path between lunacy and panic. Right around the corner of fear of death, not far away from idiotism and insanity." _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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