Status? How to get embed?
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Hello everyone,
needless to say, I find the idea of ST running on the JVM exciting! I can't wait for the day it can be used in production environments... for how many ST-refugees will it make a difference being able to use their beloved language at work! Ok, I digress. Just wanted to ask on the status... Did not find much info about where the project is, and what is still coming, how usable it is, etc.? I also didn't find much of "getting started" information... how easy is it to embed Redline ST in a Java application? How would I proceed if I wanted to change ST code while running? How would I do if I wanted to interact with the ST part? (inspect, evaluate, etc.) Thanks for the great idea :-) Sebastian |
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Hey Sebastian,
We have let documentation side fall behind. I'm taking a good chunk of time now to work on the website, getting content together, organizing it so it has 'pizzaz' and what not. I'm going to leave the other questions to James right now as I am a little out of touch with the code side recently. -Sean- On Tuesday, November 8, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Sebastian Nozzi wrote:
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Hi Sebastian,
I can't wait to get Redline Smalltalk into your Production Environment! I'm also going to use it for my own personal project and deploy that to production. When - sooner than you think! Stay tuned for some exciting news. On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Sean T Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Sebastian Nozzi-2
On Nov 8, 12:35 pm, Sebastian Nozzi <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hello everyone, > > needless to say, I find the idea of ST running on the JVM exciting! I > can't wait for the day it can be used in production environments... > for how many ST-refugees will it make a difference being able to use > their beloved language at work! There have been a few other Smalltalk implementations running on the JVM that I know of: -Talks2 http://sourceforge.net/projects/talks2/ -Bistro (not quite Smalltalk) http://www.educery.com/papers/bistro/intro/ -Smallworld (port of Little Smalltalk) http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~budd/SmallWorld/ReadMe.html Niether Talks2 or Bistro have been updated in many years (8+), and Smallworld was mostly a teaching tool (IIRC). Last time I looked at Talks2, it seemed to be fairly full-featured, including comping ST code into Java bytecodes. James, any comment on the path Redline is taking compared to Talks2? Just curious. Certainly having a maintained and actively developed Smalltalk on the JVM is a win. -Tom |
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Hi Tom,
Talks2 looks impressive! When I first looked at it the source was not available and it was commercial. Good to see it now. From looking at the code (not running it) it appears to output Java into the 'work' folder. This is a big and key difference to Redline which goes from Smalltalk source to a running class in the JVM - no Java source output and compilation step. We may output .class files in the future for caching / performance - it is unlikely Java source output will ever be part of the development loop. The key driver for Redline is to have a 'file' based smalltalk that is *very* productive to work with - productive because of the philosophy we have - make it 100% smalltalk, and make it simple to get work done. We want a Smalltalk, not a port of Smalltalk classes to Java. I hope this distinction is not too subtle. We also have come along at a time when other dynamic languages and tooling have made significant headway in the development community - things like Ruby, Closure, Python etc and we are also bringing the big productivity wins from these to the JVM and Smalltalk. For example, with Redline Stir (Smalltalk InteRactive) you have a Ruby IRB like REPL, but with more. With Stir you can connect to a running instance of a JVM to inspect and play with the running application. This remove the JVM startup overhead as well as giving you another mechanism to reach into your objects and see what they are doing, and develop with a running application. We support both the JVM and Smalltalk styles of debugging. So you can step line by line through Smalltalk source with the JVM debugger as well as using the Smalltalk approach (doesNotUnderstand: / write code / continue) We have spoken to many commercial vendors about supporting Redline and they have passed on the opportunity. They don't care about you using Smalltalk on the JVM. We do and we will continue to do so - of course it would be nice to get some support to devote more time to Redline - we are trying to get this too. Your interest spurs us on and we can't wait to release version 1.0RC1 on 1st January 2012. I hope this helped answer some of your questions - please keep them coming. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:51 AM, Tom Poindexter <[hidden email]> wrote:
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From the Talks2 performance.html document:
>>We, for instance, would like Talks2 to create Java Bytecode directly. Right now we don't, Redline does, and this makes the development loop very small and fast. It also makes Redline suitable for scripting work, just like Ruby or Python since you don't have to compile the script first. We want Redline Smalltalk usable in all areas of the development pipeline, not just for the application itself. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:05 AM, James Ladd <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Tom, |
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