Stream >> <<

I do not agree to have a code of conduct.

In my 20 years in the various Smalltalk communities i never saw any harassment or whatever (quite the opposite).

Self organization is much better, if someone "misbehave" it will be ignored by those who think that action was "misbehavior".

> One doesn't need a Code of Conduct. It is ridiculous.

> 

> Civilized and respectful non discriminating behaviour should

> be implicit in everyone of us!

>  

> If one insists in having a code of conduct than this should cover it all:

> "Be Nice, Social And Respectful To Each Living Being."

+100

Best wishes,

Tomaz

On 2019-09-17 2:34 p.m., Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

as I say the important issue is to provide safe

spaces via explicit or implicit rules

I understand, I just disagree. These are of course my personal opinions, others may disagree.  "Safe spaces" are bad things, not good things; the world is not a safe space, it is not the responsibility of others to provide one a feeling of safety in a an online community where people merely exchange words. Words are not dangerous, you are already safe. If you don't like what someone is saying, ignore them or mute them. Safe space a euphemism for censorship and exclusion, people who want safe spaces want to exclude other people who might express ideas or opinions that they disagree with. Safe spaces are anti-free speech zones.

They are an attempt to prepare the world for the child rather than the child for the world; they are inherently narcissistic. Intellectual discourse is supposed to be challenging to your beliefs, you're supposed to confront ideas you might not like or agree with and people you might have a hard time getting along with. If you submit code to a technical forum you should expect criticism and debate.  Technical discussions should resolve around the ideas being presented, not around the identities of those involved, and ideas should always be open to critique and debate. I don't care what one's sex or gender are or what color one's skin is or political beliefs are; those things have no place in a technical forum. I watch these groups to see discussions about technology like Pharo, Squeak, or Seaside.

It's a rare thing to see anyone here being truly rude, there's no need for a code of conduct, it's a non solution to a non problem intended only to divide and punish for political ends.  Maybe I'm just getting old, but the younger generation is far too coddled and expectant of the world to adjust to their feelings rather than learning how to deal with the world and others who have different ideas than they do. Safe spaces are bad ideas.

--
Ramón León

I don’t think this conversation can be closed while things are in the present unclear situation. The github entry at https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is still there, and has been there since last May. The github discussion on https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637 was abruptly closed by Stephane Ducasse, after some intemperate comments about Serge Stinckwich. This is therefore the only place questions can be asked.

 

We now know that Serge posted the Code without prior discussion with the board. Did he have authority to do this on behalf of the Pharo community? Does the fact that he did so mean it is officially adopted by the community – not just for this mailing list, but for all Pharo activities? If Serge did not have authority, shouldn’t it just be removed, at least until the board have discussed it?

The PR mentioned above was a proposal by James Foster that, if we need a code of conduct, it should be the ACM code. The PR has now been closed. Does that mean that James’s proposal has been rejected? If so, why?

 

If the conversation is closed now, that means that we are tacitly accepting that the code is there and in force, and also tacitly accepting how it got there. What is necessary is for the board collectively, or someone representing the board, to tell us what the situation is and what is going to happen next – preferably with justifications.

 

Peter Kenny

 

From: Pharo-users <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Quezadas
Sent: 19 September 2019 03:35
To: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] R: Code of Conduct

 

Yeah, I agree. Why is this even here? The thing I like about this maillist is that its very community oriented and everyone here helps each other. It's devoid of all the political-soapbox nonsense that I would find on, say, facebook. Which is why I don't deal with that platform anymore.

 

And most of this is common sense anyway. Yeah, don't harass people and make fun of them or whatever, Like most people on this list doesn't already know that. Im very vocal about certain political and social opinions, am not ashamed about my opinions, am open about it, is currently "unpopular" but don't discuss them here because it's offtopic and I don't want to piss off people in any event. I don't want it turning into another facebook basically.

 

I think we should all close this conversation, it's offtopic and not relevant to any problems this list has in any meaningful  way. 

 

- Steve

 

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kasper Østerbye <[hidden email]> wrote:

When I read the Code of conduct which is part of Pharo, my reaction was "OK, I don't expect to run into trouble over that one, so no worries".  

After having read the discussion here I would rather it was not there.

-- Kasper 

Hi,

I really liked the way the conversation was advancing on the PR before it was used to insult one of the members of the community. I don't know if closing the whole thread on the PR is only the way to keep the trolls out of it, because it also keeps everyone who is trying to make a good contribution from civilized conversation. There is another way on GitHub to only keep trolls out while making the conversation available for the ones willing to build from it?

Cheers,

Offray

On 19 Sep 2019, at 12:22, PBKResearch <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don’t think this conversation can be closed while things are in the present unclear situation. The github entry at https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is still there, and has been there since last May. The github discussion on https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637 was abruptly closed by Stephane Ducasse, after some intemperate comments about Serge Stinckwich.

Yes it can be closed. 

As we will close ANY thread/issue/PR that directly insults one of the members of the community. 

Even more important: We can close it if thread has been highjacked by someone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a troll.

Members can do things right or wrong, as they are human beings. But emitting opinions in the way they were emitted about what they did is a no-go. 

So yes, you can discuss anything you want. 

But I personally will moderate any thread that does not discusses things in a civilised way.

So you have been warned :)

Esteban

PS: I will also remember you that the purpose of this community is to make Pharo a great development environment. 

And we are all here because we all pursue that.

 We create a software that is open source and wants to have some social value added.

This is therefore the only place questions can be asked.

 

We now know that Serge posted the Code without prior discussion with the board. Did he have authority to do this on behalf of the Pharo community? Does the fact that he did so mean it is officially adopted by the community – not just for this mailing list, but for all Pharo activities? If Serge did not have authority, shouldn’t it just be removed, at least until the board have discussed it?

 

The PR mentioned above was a proposal by James Foster that, if we need a code of conduct, it should be the ACM code. The PR has now been closed. Does that mean that James’s proposal has been rejected? If so, why?

 

If the conversation is closed now, that means that we are tacitly accepting that the code is there and in force, and also tacitly accepting how it got there. What is necessary is for the board collectively, or someone representing the board, to tell us what the situation is and what is going to happen next – preferably with justifications.

 

Peter Kenny 

 

From: Pharo-users <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Quezadas
Sent: 19 September 2019 03:35
To: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] R: Code of Conduct

 

Yeah, I agree. Why is this even here? The thing I like about this maillist is that its very community oriented and everyone here helps each other. It's devoid of all the political-soapbox nonsense that I would find on, say, facebook. Which is why I don't deal with that platform anymore. 

 

And most of this is common sense anyway. Yeah, don't harass people and make fun of them or whatever, Like most people on this list doesn't already know that. Im very vocal about certain political and social opinions, am not ashamed about my opinions, am open about it, is currently "unpopular" but don't discuss them here because it's offtopic and I don't want to piss off people in any event. I don't want it turning into another facebook basically. 

 

I think we should all close this conversation, it's offtopic and not relevant to any problems this list has in any meaningful  way. 

 

- Steve

 

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kasper Østerbye <[hidden email]> wrote:

When I read the Code of conduct which is part of Pharo, my reaction was "OK, I don't expect to run into trouble over that one, so no worries".  

After having read the discussion here I would rather it was not there.

-- Kasper 

Thanks Esteban. I'm more hopeful about where community conversation can take us... let's give it time.

Cheers,

Offray

I reopened while reporting the abuser (and block him). 

But frankly, I do not think the discussion will end in anything useful (here or there).

Esteban

On 19 Sep 2019, at 14:38, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

I really liked the way the conversation was advancing on the PR before it was used to insult one of the members of the community. I don't know if closing the whole thread on the PR is only the way to keep the trolls out of it, because it also keeps everyone who is trying to make a good contribution from civilized conversation. There is another way on GitHub to only keep trolls out while making the conversation available for the ones willing to build from it?

Cheers,

Offray

On 19/09/19 6:49 a. m., Esteban Lorenzano wrote:

On 19 Sep 2019, at 12:22, PBKResearch <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don’t think this conversation can be closed while things are in the present unclear situation. The github entry at https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is still there, and has been there since last May. The github discussion on https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637 was abruptly closed by Stephane Ducasse, after some intemperate comments about Serge Stinckwich.

Yes it can be closed. 

As we will close ANY thread/issue/PR that directly insults one of the members of the community. 

Even more important: We can close it if thread has been highjacked by someone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a troll.

Members can do things right or wrong, as they are human beings. But emitting opinions in the way they were emitted about what they did is a no-go. 

So yes, you can discuss anything you want. 

But I personally will moderate any thread that does not discusses things in a civilised way.

So you have been warned :)

Esteban

PS: I will also remember you that the purpose of this community is to make Pharo a great development environment. 

And we are all here because we all pursue that.

 We create a software that is open source and wants to have some social value added.

This is therefore the only place questions can be asked.

 

We now know that Serge posted the Code without prior discussion with the board. Did he have authority to do this on behalf of the Pharo community? Does the fact that he did so mean it is officially adopted by the community – not just for this mailing list, but for all Pharo activities? If Serge did not have authority, shouldn’t it just be removed, at least until the board have discussed it?

 

The PR mentioned above was a proposal by James Foster that, if we need a code of conduct, it should be the ACM code. The PR has now been closed. Does that mean that James’s proposal has been rejected? If so, why?

 

If the conversation is closed now, that means that we are tacitly accepting that the code is there and in force, and also tacitly accepting how it got there. What is necessary is for the board collectively, or someone representing the board, to tell us what the situation is and what is going to happen next – preferably with justifications.

 

Peter Kenny 

 

From: Pharo-users <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Quezadas
Sent: 19 September 2019 03:35
To: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] R: Code of Conduct

 

Yeah, I agree. Why is this even here? The thing I like about this maillist is that its very community oriented and everyone here helps each other. It's devoid of all the political-soapbox nonsense that I would find on, say, facebook. Which is why I don't deal with that platform anymore. 

 

And most of this is common sense anyway. Yeah, don't harass people and make fun of them or whatever, Like most people on this list doesn't already know that. Im very vocal about certain political and social opinions, am not ashamed about my opinions, am open about it, is currently "unpopular" but don't discuss them here because it's offtopic and I don't want to piss off people in any event. I don't want it turning into another facebook basically. 

 

I think we should all close this conversation, it's offtopic and not relevant to any problems this list has in any meaningful  way. 

 

- Steve

 

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kasper Østerbye <[hidden email]> wrote:

When I read the Code of conduct which is part of Pharo, my reaction was "OK, I don't expect to run into trouble over that one, so no worries".  

After having read the discussion here I would rather it was not there.

-- Kasper 

Peter,

I think that the comment was referred to the comment made on the PR (not on this list) that was insulting Serge (which I will not repeat). It has been deleted now and only Stephan's response remains[1]. As you can see is addressing someone different, who has no contributions and no name and seemed to create the account just to insult and you can see by his/her empty account without any info and any contributions[2].

[1] https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637#issuecomment-532815478
[2] https://github.com/eleitl

So, in my interpretation, Stephan's comment was referred to the user at [2] and Esteban warning was referred to the closing of the issue because of it, so the "you" in the warning was not the singular "you", but the plural one. Because conversation has been split in two places, these mistakes can be done. I think that you raised a valid concern in a civilized manner, are a recognized member of the community and did not insulted Serge, so the comments were not addressing you.

This can be a very sensible approach, as the discussion on the list so far have shown, so the more clarity we can have to elevate the conversation and be respectful with the participants, the better.

Cheers,

Offray

I think the comments about “someone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a troll” are directed at me. My e-mail address is based on the trading name I used at the time I was doing consulting work; my actual name is Peter Kenny, and I use it to sign everything I post in this forum. I have no repositories, because the only code I write is of no general interest. As a member of the community, I was invited by Stephane Ducasse to work up a post I had written to help someone into a pamphlet on web scraping; I think that is still available in Pharo publications. So I am not a troll; I am an elderly but still active user of Pharo, and concerned about developments. There is an English saying about pots and kettles, which Mr Lorenzano might consider before making personal attacks on me.

 

I did not say anything insulting about Serge Stinckwich. I asked whether he acted with authority when he posted the code, because I genuinely don’t know what official position he has in the Pharo world. I still don’t know whether the code is in effect as a result of being posted.

 

‘You have been warned’ seems like a threat. I do not like being threatened. If comments here, which are relevant to the topic and expressed in moderate language, are no longer welcome, I shall absent myself without waiting to be banned.

 

Peter Kenny

 

From: Pharo-users [hidden email] On Behalf Of Esteban Lorenzano
Sent: 19 September 2019 12:49
To: Any question about pharo is welcome [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

 

 

On 19 Sep 2019, at 12:22, PBKResearch <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

I don’t think this conversation can be closed while things are in the present unclear situation. The github entry at https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is still there, and has been there since last May. The github discussion on https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637 was abruptly closed by Stephane Ducasse, after some intemperate comments about Serge Stinckwich.

 

Yes it can be closed. 

As we will close ANY thread/issue/PR that directly insults one of the members of the community. 

Even more important: We can close it if thread has been highjacked by someone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a troll.

 

Members can do things right or wrong, as they are human beings. But emitting opinions in the way they were emitted about what they did is a no-go. 

 

So yes, you can discuss anything you want. 

But I personally will moderate any thread that does not discusses things in a civilised way.

 

So you have been warned :)

 

Esteban

 

PS: I will also remember you that the purpose of this community is to make Pharo a great development environment. 

And we are all here because we all pursue that.

 We create a software that is open source and wants to have some social value added.

 

This is therefore the only place questions can be asked.

 

We now know that Serge posted the Code without prior discussion with the board. Did he have authority to do this on behalf of the Pharo community? Does the fact that he did so mean it is officially adopted by the community – not just for this mailing list, but for all Pharo activities? If Serge did not have authority, shouldn’t it just be removed, at least until the board have discussed it?

 

The PR mentioned above was a proposal by James Foster that, if we need a code of conduct, it should be the ACM code. The PR has now been closed. Does that mean that James’s proposal has been rejected? If so, why?

 

If the conversation is closed now, that means that we are tacitly accepting that the code is there and in force, and also tacitly accepting how it got there. What is necessary is for the board collectively, or someone representing the board, to tell us what the situation is and what is going to happen next – preferably with justifications.

 

Peter Kenny 

 

From: Pharo-users <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Quezadas
Sent: 19 September 2019 03:35
To: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] R: Code of Conduct

 

Yeah, I agree. Why is this even here? The thing I like about this maillist is that its very community oriented and everyone here helps each other. It's devoid of all the political-soapbox nonsense that I would find on, say, facebook. Which is why I don't deal with that platform anymore. 

 

And most of this is common sense anyway. Yeah, don't harass people and make fun of them or whatever, Like most people on this list doesn't already know that. Im very vocal about certain political and social opinions, am not ashamed about my opinions, am open about it, is currently "unpopular" but don't discuss them here because it's offtopic and I don't want to piss off people in any event. I don't want it turning into another facebook basically. 

 

I think we should all close this conversation, it's offtopic and not relevant to any problems this list has in any meaningful  way. 

 

- Steve

 

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kasper Østerbye <[hidden email]> wrote:

When I read the Code of conduct which is part of Pharo, my reaction was "OK, I don't expect to run into trouble over that one, so no worries".  

After having read the discussion here I would rather it was not there.

-- Kasper