SushiStore removed from Seaside
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There is lots of mention and documentation about the sushi store on the
internet - yet when you persue it, a google search mainly recovers irrelevant bits and pieces to do with Magma. Add this to the confusions that arise through the shift to 2.8 and this inconsistency on the web is not too good. Given that the sushi example has been so well documented and was consistently incorportated into earlier seaside versions, it would be good to have that consistency continue and so have it available within the current seaside examples and as a download. There was some distaste for the example because it was from an earlier version and did not fit with current practice - however, that would provide justification for a rework in order to make the new practices clearer. Has anyone done an updated version - and if so, can it please be included in the seaside examples? _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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2007/11/19, Robert Hawley <[hidden email]>:
> There is lots of mention and documentation about the sushi store on the > internet - yet when you persue it, a google search mainly recovers > irrelevant bits and pieces to do with Magma. > > Add this to the confusions that arise through the shift to 2.8 and this > inconsistency on the web is not too good. > > Given that the sushi example has been so well documented The opposite is the case > and was > consistently incorportated into earlier seaside versions, The opposite is the case > it would be good > to have that consistency continue and so have it available within the > current seaside examples No, see above > and as a download. http://www.squeaksource.com/SeasideExamples/Store-pmm.1.mcz > There was some distaste for the example because it was from an earlier > version and did not fit with current practice - however, that would provide > justification for a rework in order to make the new practices clearer. So you voluteer? > Has anyone done an updated version No > - and if so, can it please be included in > the seaside examples? It might make as a standalone package but certainly not in the Seaside Kernel package. Cheers Philippe > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by rhawley
Hi Philippe
When you say 'certainly not' do you actually mean something like 'certainly not in its current form'? While you might not like the style, the general topic is good as an example. While the simpler examples currently on the seaside web site are great for initial demonstration, something with a shopping cart in it is more convincing. Having an appliation like that in the package also provides a good template for learners. Whether I am to be the one to the Sushi example it is yet to be seen. It would be good if someone would do it (or something like it) - possibly to be included in the seaside web site. Yours Bob > There is lots of mention and documentation about the sushi store on the > internet - yet when you persue it, a google search mainly recovers > irrelevant bits and pieces to do with Magma. > > Add this to the confusions that arise through the shift to 2.8 and this > inconsistency on the web is not too good. > > Given that the sushi example has been so well documented The opposite is the case > and was > consistently incorportated into earlier seaside versions, The opposite is the case > it would be good > to have that consistency continue and so have it available within the > current seaside examples No, see above > and as a download. http://www.squeaksource.com/SeasideExamples/Store-pmm.1.mcz > There was some distaste for the example because it was from an earlier > version and did not fit with current practice - however, that would provide > justification for a rework in order to make the new practices clearer. So you voluteer? > Has anyone done an updated version No > - and if so, can it please be included in > the seaside examples? It might make as a standalone package but certainly not in the Seaside Kernel package. Cheers Philippe _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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I suspect the critical point is this: Robert> There was some distaste for the example because it was from an earlier Robert> version and did not fit with current practice - however, that would Robert> provide justification for a rework in order to make the new practices Robert> clearer. Other> So you voluteer? As in, if it is showing pre-2.8 practices, it needs to be updated. I might be motivated to help out here, since I'm working on some courseware that will need an example very close to the Store example, and would be willing to put my work back into the freely-available pile. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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In reply to this post by rhawley
2007/11/20, Robert Hawley <[hidden email]>:
> Hi Philippe > > When you say 'certainly not' do you actually mean something like 'certainly > not in its current form'? While you might not like the style, the general > topic is good as an example. Certainly not means it will never again be part of the core Seaside package. We don't need stuff like WAMastercard and friends there. You'll be able to load if you want it but if you don't want it you won't get it. > While the simpler examples currently on the seaside web site are great for > initial demonstration, something with a shopping cart in it is more > convincing. Having an appliation like that in the package also provides a > good template for learners. In the current form the package is not a good template for learners and hence they should stay away from it. That's one of the reasons we removed it. Cheers Philippe > Whether I am to be the one to the Sushi example it is yet to be seen. It > would be good if someone would do it (or something like it) - possibly to be > included in the seaside web site. > > Yours > > Bob > > > > > There is lots of mention and documentation about the sushi store on the > > internet - yet when you persue it, a google search mainly recovers > > irrelevant bits and pieces to do with Magma. > > > > Add this to the confusions that arise through the shift to 2.8 and this > > inconsistency on the web is not too good. > > > > Given that the sushi example has been so well documented > > The opposite is the case > > > and was > > consistently incorportated into earlier seaside versions, > > The opposite is the case > > > it would be good > > to have that consistency continue and so have it available within the > > current seaside examples > > No, see above > > > and as a download. > > http://www.squeaksource.com/SeasideExamples/Store-pmm.1.mcz > > > There was some distaste for the example because it was from an earlier > > version and did not fit with current practice - however, that would provide > > justification for a rework in order to make the new practices clearer. > > So you voluteer? > > > Has anyone done an updated version > > No > > > - and if so, can it please be included in > > the seaside examples? > > It might make as a standalone package but certainly not in the Seaside > Kernel package. > > Cheers > Philippe > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by rhawley
Philippe
Your comment (below) sounds overly dogmatic. My students specifically said that they think that a shopping cart example is essential. Maybe they (and me) are wrong to hold our opinion? Yours Bob ---------- Certainly not means it will never again be part of the core Seaside package. We don't need stuff like WAMastercard and friends there. You'll be able to load if you want it but if you don't want it you won't get it. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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> Philippe
> > Your comment (below) sounds overly dogmatic. > > My students specifically said that they think that a shopping > cart example is essential. Maybe they (and me) are wrong to > hold our opinion? > > Yours > > Bob Phillippe is right, examples might be nice, but they have no place in the core framework. The examples are, and should be maintained as separate loadable applications. Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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Ramon Leon wrote:
>> Philippe >> >> Your comment (below) sounds overly dogmatic. >> >> My students specifically said that they think that a shopping >> cart example is essential. Maybe they (and me) are wrong to >> hold our opinion? >> >> Yours >> >> Bob >> > > Phillippe is right, examples might be nice, but they have no place in the > core framework. The examples are, and should be maintained as separate > loadable applications. > > Ramon Leon > http://onsmalltalk.com > opposite approach. "Easy install with everything and the kitchen sink included. Everything that you could possibly want to solve your problem." Admittedly these tools do not have a core as refined and as high quality as has been produced by the focussed approach but I think it is a sensible option. Lack of a viable example application is what kept me from using seaside for 3 years in the early days. I could see how to make components like the counter, I could not see how to put it all together. Now I make components like a counter and put it all together with pier so I no longer have that problem. best regards Keith _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by rhawley
Hi Ramon
Your point is reasonable and makes sense - but I don't know if that was what was being argued. However, I would counter your (reasonable) point. It makes also good sense to put a good example of the use of Seaside within the core for the benefit of learners. There are demo examples in the current image, but these do not provide a good template for learners to work from. However irritating the Sushi example was to the gurus, it did provide a common base for discussion. Even more importantly, its 'go' method demonstrated the simple elegance of Seaside very well. Take that away and you've taken away my sales-pitch! Not everyone is a guru. Learners stand the best chance of taking to Seaside if there is helpful code close at hand. Yours Bob --------------- Phillippe is right, examples might be nice, but they have no place in the core framework. The examples are, and should be maintained as separate loadable applications. Ramon Leon _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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In reply to this post by keith1y
> I can think of a number of successful frameworks that have
> taken an opposite approach. > > "Easy install with everything and the kitchen sink included. > Everything that you could possibly want to solve your problem." > > Admittedly these tools do not have a core as refined and as > high quality as has been produced by the focussed approach > but I think it is a sensible option. > > Lack of a viable example application is what kept me from > using seaside for 3 years in the early days. I could see how > to make components like the counter, I could not see how to > put it all together. > > Now I make components like a counter and put it all together > with pier so I no longer have that problem. > > best regards > > Keith There are several sample applications on SqueakSource for anyone wanting examples. Aside from that, the Sushi store example was often broken and not well maintained when it was in the core. Better no example than a broken example, and better not to burden the core developers with things they don't want to maintain. If you look at Rails right now, you'll see they've been trying to push things out of the core and into plugins when they realize they'd included something that didn't really belong in the core. If everyone doesn't care about it, it doesn't belong in the core. Only beginners care about Sushi store. This is just my opinion of course, so take it with a grain of salt. Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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In reply to this post by rhawley
Hi Bob,
ideas like features and framework practices can be learned from code examples. If you recall, it was told here that the Sushi example uses some deprecated techniques so it simply has no sense to have in the core package potentially replicating deprecated practices. That way is simply too easy to inadvertedly be teaching what is wrong. I'm sure you may know how expensive is to un-teach what is teached wrong. So applying for this case the criteria of "when in doubt refrain yourself" seems intelligent decision to me. I imagine you want tools for teaching and is nothing wrong with that. In fact is great you are using this for teaching so note that you can use it anyway if you still find it useful and you filter the wrong part for your students but have in mind that may be that is not the same intention the Seaside team is having (due to be unable to filter the same you will for every independent newcomer non one of your students among other things). If what you want is a zero config situation for your students, why don't you just load it in a fresh image to distribute among your students? You can put other convenient examples for the way you plan to teach too and also your own ones. cheers, Sebastian Sastre > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre > de Robert Hawley > Enviado el: Jueves, 22 de Noviembre de 2007 00:16 > Para: [hidden email] > Asunto: [Seaside] SushiStore removed from Seaside > > Hi Ramon > > Your point is reasonable and makes sense - but I don't know > if that was what was being argued. > > However, I would counter your (reasonable) point. It makes > also good sense to put a good example of the use of Seaside > within the core for the benefit of learners. There are demo > examples in the current image, but these do not provide a > good template for learners to work from. > > However irritating the Sushi example was to the gurus, it did > provide a common base for discussion. Even more importantly, > its 'go' method demonstrated the simple elegance of Seaside > very well. Take that away and you've taken away my sales-pitch! > > Not everyone is a guru. Learners stand the best chance of > taking to Seaside if there is helpful code close at hand. > > Yours > > Bob > > > --------------- > > Phillippe is right, examples might be nice, but they have no > place in the core framework. The examples are, and should be > maintained as separate loadable applications. > > Ramon Leon > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by rhawley
Ramon
You say "Only beginners care about Sushi store" but that's my point - they do care. Seaside needs to be introduced to people - it is not just for gurus. It provided a centre for discussion in the evolution, devolution and teaching of Seaside. Those are still things that need servicing. I don't particularly care about Sushi as such, but I do believe that it served a role. If it goes, we need a replacement. Yours Bob _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by rhawley
Hi Sebastian
I do want tools for teaching - ideally communal, standardised, well chosen and easily available on the internet. I have the problem of having to cope with deprecated techniques - seeing how existing examples need to be modified would make shifting over easier for people like me. Having put a lot of effort into learning Seaside I now find myself having to re-learn it for a third time - and to be blunt I am a bit fed up. I don't have anyone around me to teach me and I find it very hard to filter through the mass of 'stuff' about it on the internet. I have produced images, hand-outs, examples etc.., and now I have to do it yet again. If well chosen examples are available on the internet I (and many others introducing Seaside) won't have to make images and load stuff time and again when we want to show the product to people. The 'zero config' image you talk of needs to be shared by the whole community. It gives us something we can use for teaching and talk about at conferences - and that people can later easily load up for themselves. I stand by my assertion that a well chosen inbuilt example (along the lines of Sushi) is well worth having. Probably I am not the person to write it - I am not yet in tune with the new ways. (However, I have spent some time on it and am part of the way in.) If the gurus want a purist core, then perhaps we could have a demo core also available in parallel? It would be interesting to see which would get downloaded more often. Yours Bob -------------------- Hi Bob, ideas like features and framework practices can be learned from code examples. If you recall, it was told here that the Sushi example uses some deprecated techniques so it simply has no sense to have in the core package potentially replicating deprecated practices. That way is simply too easy to inadvertedly be teaching what is wrong. I'm sure you may know how expensive is to un-teach what is teached wrong. So applying for this case the criteria of "when in doubt refrain yourself" seems intelligent decision to me. I imagine you want tools for teaching and is nothing wrong with that. In fact is great you are using this for teaching so note that you can use it anyway if you still find it useful and you filter the wrong part for your students but have in mind that may be that is not the same intention the Seaside team is having (due to be unable to filter the same you will for every independent newcomer non one of your students among other things). If what you want is a zero config situation for your students, why don't you just load it in a fresh image to distribute among your students? You can put other convenient examples for the way you plan to teach too and also your own ones. cheers, Sebastian Sastre _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Ramon Leon-5
> There are several sample applications on SqueakSource for anyone wanting > examples. Aside from that, the Sushi store example was often broken and not > Actually, first I have heard of them.... QED Ok so if you move stuff into plug-ins this means that experienced users can remove, or not invoke plugins that they do not want. Lets try another analogy, if your first download experience of Squeak had been pavel's gui-less kernel image, instead of a full-squeak with etoys, sound, 3D wonderland and 2 faces singing harmonies would you have given squeak a second glance? Keith _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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In reply to this post by rhawley
Examples are very important. People use them to learn how to use a
system like Seaside. We need examples the size of SushiStore so people can see how to put together an application in Seaside. That said the core developers are doing a lot of work without maintaining SushiStore. So we do need a core demo package that is as easy to find and download as the core Seaside. Which means we need someone to maintain the core demo package. When people say that Sushistore is out of date are they talking about just the changes from Seaside 2.6 to 2.8 or are there major structural changes that need to be made to the example? Roger whitney Via iPhone On Nov 22, 2007, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hawley <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Sebastian > > I do want tools for teaching - ideally communal, standardised, well > chosen > and easily available on the internet. > > I have the problem of having to cope with deprecated techniques - > seeing how > existing examples need to be modified would make shifting over > easier for > people like me. Having put a lot of effort into learning Seaside I > now find > myself having to re-learn it for a third time - and to be blunt I am > a bit > fed up. I don't have anyone around me to teach me and I find it > very hard > to filter through the mass of 'stuff' about it on the internet. I > have > produced images, hand-outs, examples etc.., and now I have to do it > yet > again. > > If well chosen examples are available on the internet I (and many > others > introducing Seaside) won't have to make images and load stuff time > and again > when we want to show the product to people. > > The 'zero config' image you talk of needs to be shared by the whole > community. It gives us something we can use for teaching and talk > about at > conferences - and that people can later easily load up for themselves. > > I stand by my assertion that a well chosen inbuilt example (along > the lines > of Sushi) is well worth having. Probably I am not the person to > write it - I > am not yet in tune with the new ways. (However, I have spent some > time on it > and am part of the way in.) > > If the gurus want a purist core, then perhaps we could have a demo > core also > available in parallel? It would be interesting to see which would get > downloaded more often. > > Yours > > Bob > > -------------------- > > > Hi Bob, > > ideas like features and framework practices can be learned from > code > examples. If you recall, it was told here that the Sushi example > uses some > deprecated techniques so it simply has no sense to have in the core > package > potentially replicating deprecated practices. That way is simply too > easy to > inadvertedly be teaching what is wrong. I'm sure you may know how > expensive > is to un-teach what is teached wrong. So applying for this case the > criteria > of "when in doubt refrain yourself" seems intelligent decision to me. > > I imagine you want tools for teaching and is nothing wrong with > that. In fact is great you are using this for teaching so note that > you can > use it anyway if you still find it useful and you filter the wrong > part for > your students but have in mind that may be that is not the same > intention > the Seaside team is having (due to be unable to filter the same you > will for > every independent newcomer non one of your students among other > things). > > If what you want is a zero config situation for your students, why > don't you just load it in a fresh image to distribute among your > students? > You can put other convenient examples for the way you plan to teach > too and > also your own ones. > > cheers, > > Sebastian Sastre > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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In reply to this post by keith1y
> > There are several sample applications on SqueakSource for anyone wanting
> > examples. Aside from that, the Sushi store example was often broken and not > > > Actually, first I have heard of them.... QED > > Ok so if you move stuff into plug-ins this means that experienced users > can remove, or not invoke plugins that they do not want. I agree with this but I disagree with your other analogy. Finding stuff is pretty weird for newbies. I'm still a noob, and the weirdness of finding stuff is one of the big things that slowed me down. But: > Lets try another analogy, if your first download experience of Squeak > had been pavel's gui-less kernel image, instead of a full-squeak with > etoys, sound, 3D wonderland and 2 faces singing harmonies would you have > given squeak a second glance? That I totally disagree with. The first thing I did when I started to gain a little control over Squeak was figure out how to take all the irrelevant widgets and trivialities off of my workspace. -- Giles Bowkett Podcast: http://hollywoodgrit.blogspot.com Blog: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com Portfolio: http://www.gilesgoatboy.org Tumblelog: http://giles.tumblr.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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In reply to this post by rhawley
...
> > I do want tools for teaching - ideally communal, > standardised, well chosen and easily available on the internet. > > I have the problem of having to cope with deprecated > techniques - seeing how existing examples need to be modified > would make shifting over easier for people like me. Having > put a lot of effort into learning Seaside I now find myself > having to re-learn it for a third time - and to be blunt I am > a bit fed up. I don't have anyone around me to teach me and > I find it very hard to filter through the mass of 'stuff' > about it on the internet. I have produced images, hand-outs, > examples etc.., and now I have to do it yet again. > exclusive for Seaside nor Smalltalk. In fact Smalltalk solutions tend to last longer because when they achieve enough conceptual correctness. Said that: welcome to the re-learning re-inventing industry :) > If well chosen examples are available on the internet I (and > many others introducing Seaside) won't have to make images > and load stuff time and again when we want to show the > product to people. > But that depends on what you want to show and probably want to show something with customized value. That's why I suggested to prepare your own image ready for teach/distribute among students. > The 'zero config' image you talk of needs to be shared by the > whole community. It gives us something we can use for > teaching and talk about at conferences - and that people can > later easily load up for themselves. > All this has MIT licenses so I don't see why you cannot make a distributable image, let's say in your own page or blog (in fact Ramon does exacly that), and materializes what you are asking for at a very reasonable (personal) effort. > I stand by my assertion that a well chosen inbuilt example > (along the lines of Sushi) is well worth having. Probably I > am not the person to write it - I am not yet in tune with the > new ways. (However, I have spent some time on it and am part > of the way in.) > Why do you think you're not? You said you are a teacher and you understands and teaches with Seaside what else do you need? If you need some "tunning" then tune. You have this list of persons who dedicate some effort to support your (and other's) technical questions. > If the gurus want a purist core, then perhaps we could have a > demo core also available in parallel? It would be > interesting to see which would get downloaded more often. > But Bob there are priorities. In this moment we cannot pretend to put the responsibility of that in the shoulders of a very short in resources development team. The sacrifices that it can imply as consequence will not be reasonable. Besides don't think about gurus. Who care them. Nobody is guru of a "non blind" person. It has also no value to push things to a pointless comparision arena like which version is loaded more. There is no richness in that. Just evaluate results of what can be done with this machinery. Your results. Results of your students. Community results. Technology should be intended to make a better life of persons involved on the use of it. That's is richness and that should be "the goal". Make some with Seaside if it's your choice. I understand you're enthusiastic but with some disappointments about tools for your goals. But that's life. Smalltalk has a relatively small community and members use to surpass this some way or another by having, lot of times, to invest effort on applying the criteria of: "if you think of it you can materialize it". Best regards, Sebastian > Yours > > Bob > > -------------------- > > > Hi Bob, > > ideas like features and framework practices can be > learned from code examples. If you recall, it was told here > that the Sushi example uses some deprecated techniques so it > simply has no sense to have in the core package potentially > replicating deprecated practices. That way is simply too easy > to inadvertedly be teaching what is wrong. I'm sure you may > know how expensive is to un-teach what is teached wrong. So > applying for this case the criteria of "when in doubt refrain > yourself" seems intelligent decision to me. > > I imagine you want tools for teaching and is nothing > wrong with that. In fact is great you are using this for > teaching so note that you can use it anyway if you still find > it useful and you filter the wrong part for your students > but have in mind that may be that is not the same intention > the Seaside team is having (due to be unable to filter the > same you will for every independent newcomer non one of your > students among other things). > > If what you want is a zero config situation for your > students, why don't you just load it in a fresh image to > distribute among your students? > You can put other convenient examples for the way you plan to > teach too and also your own ones. > > cheers, > > Sebastian Sastre > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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In reply to this post by keith1y
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf > Of Keith Hodges > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:55 AM > To: Seaside - general discussion > Subject: Re: [Seaside] SushiStore removed from Seaside > > > > There are several sample applications on SqueakSource for anyone > > wanting examples. Aside from that, the Sushi store example > was often > > broken and not > > > Actually, first I have heard of them.... QED You never once searched for seaside on squeaksource? I just don't see finding sample code as a real problem, it's there, easy to find and easy to load. If loading a package from squeaksource is too hard for a new users, then they're not ready for app development in Seaside, because loading packages is kind of necessary for that. They have to learn Squeak before they can be productive in Seaside, that's life. > Ok so if you move stuff into plug-ins this means that > experienced users can remove, or not invoke plugins that they > do not want. Which are by the way... The people actually using Seaside, so it makes sense they'd decide that stuff doesn't belong in the core. > Lets try another analogy, if your first download experience > of Squeak had been pavel's gui-less kernel image, instead of > a full-squeak with etoys, sound, 3D wonderland and 2 faces > singing harmonies would you have given squeak a second glance? > > Keith That's where there are kernels and distributions. You can cram all that into any distribution you like. Damien has one that has Seaside, Pier, and some other stuff, and there's the one click image from seaside.st, and several others. None of that justifies bloating the core kernel with example code, that's what distributions are for. You're blaming the kernel for not being a suitable distribution, but it's not meant to be. And there's still plenty in there that can and probably should be stripped out to make it even slimmer. Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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In reply to this post by Sebastian Sastre-2
On Nov 22, 2007 6:49 PM, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ... > I understand you're enthusiastic but with some disappointments about tools > for your goals. But that's life. Smalltalk has a relatively small community > and members use to surpass this some way or another by having, lot of times, > to invest effort on applying the criteria of: "if you think of it you can > materialize it". > > Best regards, > > Sebastian Hi Sebastian, All, I think part of the problem is that the sushi store is widely referenced on the web and mailing list archives, and so is seen by newbies as a valuable learning tool. When they begin to realise that there are problems with it, and raise this here, the replies they get don't seem to acknowledge the importance of their confusion, and this leads to frustration on both sides. To try to head some of this misunderstanding off, I've updated some of the references to the Sushi Store. I've updated the Seaside page at http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2272 to warn people away from the Sushi Store. I've also added some text to the wiki page linked from http://www.squeaksource.com/SeasideExamples.html (should that page really be world-editable?). Perhaps someone with a better understanding of the issues with this application could add more details of the nature of the problems with the application (this may even inspire someone to update it!). There are two other pages that it would be worth someone with access updating: - the Tutorials page at http://www.seaside.st/documentation/tutorial should explicitly warn people away from this deprecated code. - the release notes at http://www.seaside.st/community/development/seaside28 also seem to encourage people to use the Sushi Store, perhaps that should read "The *deprecated* Sushi Store is now its own package at Seaside Examples" Cheers, Michael _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside
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2007/11/22, Michael Davies <[hidden email]>:
> On Nov 22, 2007 6:49 PM, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote: > > ... > > I understand you're enthusiastic but with some disappointments about tools > > for your goals. But that's life. Smalltalk has a relatively small community > > and members use to surpass this some way or another by having, lot of times, > > to invest effort on applying the criteria of: "if you think of it you can > > materialize it". > > > > Best regards, > > > > Sebastian > > Hi Sebastian, All, > > I think part of the problem is that the sushi store is widely > referenced on the web and mailing list archives, and so is seen by > newbies as a valuable learning tool. When they begin to realise that > there are problems with it, and raise this here, the replies they get > don't seem to acknowledge the importance of their confusion, and this > leads to frustration on both sides. > > To try to head some of this misunderstanding off, I've updated some of > the references to the Sushi Store. I've updated the Seaside page at > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2272 to warn people away from the Sushi > Store. I've also added some text to the wiki page linked from > http://www.squeaksource.com/SeasideExamples.html (should that page > really be world-editable?). If someone wants do something about it instead of writing endless mails about it I want to make it as easy for him as possible. Cheers Philippe > Perhaps someone with a better > understanding of the issues with this application could add more > details of the nature of the problems with the application (this may > even inspire someone to update it!). > > There are two other pages that it would be worth someone with access updating: > - the Tutorials page at http://www.seaside.st/documentation/tutorial > should explicitly warn people away from this deprecated code. > - the release notes at > http://www.seaside.st/community/development/seaside28 also seem to > encourage people to use the Sushi Store, perhaps that should read "The > *deprecated* Sushi Store is now its own package at Seaside Examples" > > Cheers, > Michael > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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