SushiStore removed from Seaside

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SushiStore removed from Seaside

rhawley
There is lots of mention and documentation about the sushi store on the
internet - yet when you persue it, a google search mainly recovers
irrelevant bits and pieces to do with Magma.

Add this to the confusions that arise through the shift to 2.8 and this
inconsistency on the web is not too good.

Given that the sushi example has been so well documented and was
consistently incorportated into earlier seaside versions, it would be good
to have that consistency continue and so have it available within the
current seaside examples and as a download.

There was some distaste for the example because it was from an earlier
version and did not fit with current practice - however, that would provide
justification for a rework in order to make the new practices clearer.

Has anyone done an updated version - and if so, can it please be included in
the seaside examples?

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Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Philippe Marschall
2007/11/19, Robert Hawley <[hidden email]>:
> There is lots of mention and documentation about the sushi store on the
> internet - yet when you persue it, a google search mainly recovers
> irrelevant bits and pieces to do with Magma.
>
> Add this to the confusions that arise through the shift to 2.8 and this
> inconsistency on the web is not too good.
>
> Given that the sushi example has been so well documented

The opposite is the case

> and was
> consistently incorportated into earlier seaside versions,

The opposite is the case

> it would be good
> to have that consistency continue and so have it available within the
> current seaside examples

No, see above

> and as a download.

http://www.squeaksource.com/SeasideExamples/Store-pmm.1.mcz

> There was some distaste for the example because it was from an earlier
> version and did not fit with current practice - however, that would provide
> justification for a rework in order to make the new practices clearer.

So you voluteer?

> Has anyone done an updated version

No

> - and if so, can it please be included in
> the seaside examples?

It might make as a standalone package but certainly not in the Seaside
Kernel package.

Cheers
Philippe

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SushiStore removed from Seaside

rhawley
In reply to this post by rhawley
Hi Philippe

When you say 'certainly not' do you actually mean something like 'certainly
not in its current form'? While you might not like the style, the general
topic is good as an example.

While the simpler examples currently on the seaside web site are great for
initial demonstration, something with a shopping cart in it is more
convincing.  Having an appliation like that in the package also provides a
good template for learners.

Whether I am to be the one to the Sushi example it is yet to be seen. It
would be good if someone would do it (or something like it) - possibly to be
included in the seaside web site.

Yours

Bob



> There is lots of mention and documentation about the sushi store on the
> internet - yet when you persue it, a google search mainly recovers
> irrelevant bits and pieces to do with Magma.
>
> Add this to the confusions that arise through the shift to 2.8 and this
> inconsistency on the web is not too good.
>
> Given that the sushi example has been so well documented

The opposite is the case

> and was
> consistently incorportated into earlier seaside versions,

The opposite is the case

> it would be good
> to have that consistency continue and so have it available within the
> current seaside examples

No, see above

> and as a download.

http://www.squeaksource.com/SeasideExamples/Store-pmm.1.mcz

> There was some distaste for the example because it was from an earlier
> version and did not fit with current practice - however, that would provide
> justification for a rework in order to make the new practices clearer.

So you voluteer?

> Has anyone done an updated version

No

> - and if so, can it please be included in
> the seaside examples?

It might make as a standalone package but certainly not in the Seaside
Kernel package.

Cheers
Philippe

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Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Randal L. Schwartz

I suspect the critical point is this:

Robert> There was some distaste for the example because it was from an earlier
Robert> version and did not fit with current practice - however, that would
Robert> provide justification for a rework in order to make the new practices
Robert> clearer.

Other> So you voluteer?

As in, if it is showing pre-2.8 practices, it needs to be updated.  I might be
motivated to help out here, since I'm working on some courseware that will
need an example very close to the Store example, and would be willing to put
my work back into the freely-available pile.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Philippe Marschall
In reply to this post by rhawley
2007/11/20, Robert Hawley <[hidden email]>:
> Hi Philippe
>
> When you say 'certainly not' do you actually mean something like 'certainly
> not in its current form'? While you might not like the style, the general
> topic is good as an example.

Certainly not means it will never again be part of the core Seaside
package. We don't need stuff like WAMastercard and friends there.
You'll be able to load if you want it but if you don't want it you
won't get it.

> While the simpler examples currently on the seaside web site are great for
> initial demonstration, something with a shopping cart in it is more
> convincing.  Having an appliation like that in the package also provides a
> good template for learners.

In the current form the package is not a good template for learners
and hence they should stay away from it. That's one of the reasons we
removed it.

Cheers
Philippe

> Whether I am to be the one to the Sushi example it is yet to be seen. It
> would be good if someone would do it (or something like it) - possibly to be
> included in the seaside web site.
>
> Yours
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> > There is lots of mention and documentation about the sushi store on the
> > internet - yet when you persue it, a google search mainly recovers
> > irrelevant bits and pieces to do with Magma.
> >
> > Add this to the confusions that arise through the shift to 2.8 and this
> > inconsistency on the web is not too good.
> >
> > Given that the sushi example has been so well documented
>
> The opposite is the case
>
> > and was
> > consistently incorportated into earlier seaside versions,
>
> The opposite is the case
>
> > it would be good
> > to have that consistency continue and so have it available within the
> > current seaside examples
>
> No, see above
>
> > and as a download.
>
> http://www.squeaksource.com/SeasideExamples/Store-pmm.1.mcz
>
> > There was some distaste for the example because it was from an earlier
> > version and did not fit with current practice - however, that would provide
> > justification for a rework in order to make the new practices clearer.
>
> So you voluteer?
>
> > Has anyone done an updated version
>
> No
>
> > - and if so, can it please be included in
> > the seaside examples?
>
> It might make as a standalone package but certainly not in the Seaside
> Kernel package.
>
> Cheers
> Philippe
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
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SushiStore removed from Seaside

rhawley
In reply to this post by rhawley
Philippe

Your comment (below) sounds overly dogmatic.

My students specifically said that they think that a shopping cart example
is essential. Maybe they (and me) are wrong to hold our opinion?

Yours

Bob

----------
Certainly not means it will never again be part of the core Seaside
package. We don't need stuff like WAMastercard and friends there.
You'll be able to load if you want it but if you don't want it you
won't get it.

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RE: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Ramon Leon-5
> Philippe
>
> Your comment (below) sounds overly dogmatic.
>
> My students specifically said that they think that a shopping
> cart example is essential. Maybe they (and me) are wrong to
> hold our opinion?
>
> Yours
>
> Bob

Phillippe is right, examples might be nice, but they have no place in the
core framework.  The examples are, and should be maintained as separate
loadable applications.

Ramon Leon
http://onsmalltalk.com

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Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside

keith1y
Ramon Leon wrote:

>> Philippe
>>
>> Your comment (below) sounds overly dogmatic.
>>
>> My students specifically said that they think that a shopping
>> cart example is essential. Maybe they (and me) are wrong to
>> hold our opinion?
>>
>> Yours
>>
>> Bob
>>    
>
> Phillippe is right, examples might be nice, but they have no place in the
> core framework.  The examples are, and should be maintained as separate
> loadable applications.
>
> Ramon Leon
> http://onsmalltalk.com
>  
I can think of a number of successful frameworks that have taken an
opposite approach.

"Easy install with everything and the kitchen sink included. Everything
that you could possibly want to solve your problem."

Admittedly these tools do not have a core as refined and as high quality
as has been produced by the focussed approach but I think it is a
sensible option.

Lack of a viable example application is what kept me from using seaside
for 3 years in the early days. I could see how to make components like
the counter, I could not see how to put it all together.

Now I make components like a counter and put it all together with pier
so I no longer have that problem.

best regards

Keith


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SushiStore removed from Seaside

rhawley
In reply to this post by rhawley
Hi Ramon

Your point is reasonable and makes sense - but I don't know if that was what
was being argued.

However, I would counter your (reasonable) point. It makes also good sense
to put a good example of the use of Seaside within the core for the benefit
of learners.  There are demo examples in the current image, but these do not
provide a good template for learners to work from.

However irritating the Sushi example was to the gurus, it did provide a
common base for discussion. Even more importantly, its 'go' method
demonstrated the simple elegance of Seaside very well. Take that away and
you've taken away my sales-pitch!

Not everyone is a guru. Learners stand the best chance of taking to Seaside
if there is helpful code close at hand.

Yours

Bob


---------------

Phillippe is right, examples might be nice, but they have no place in the
core framework.  The examples are, and should be maintained as separate
loadable applications.

Ramon Leon

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RE: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Ramon Leon-5
In reply to this post by keith1y
> I can think of a number of successful frameworks that have
> taken an opposite approach.
>
> "Easy install with everything and the kitchen sink included.
> Everything that you could possibly want to solve your problem."
>
> Admittedly these tools do not have a core as refined and as
> high quality as has been produced by the focussed approach
> but I think it is a sensible option.
>
> Lack of a viable example application is what kept me from
> using seaside for 3 years in the early days. I could see how
> to make components like the counter, I could not see how to
> put it all together.
>
> Now I make components like a counter and put it all together
> with pier so I no longer have that problem.
>
> best regards
>
> Keith

There are several sample applications on SqueakSource for anyone wanting
examples.  Aside from that, the Sushi store example was often broken and not
well maintained when it was in the core.  Better no example than a broken
example, and better not to burden the core developers with things they don't
want to maintain.  

If you look at Rails right now, you'll see they've been trying to push
things out of the core and into plugins when they realize they'd included
something that didn't really belong in the core.  If everyone doesn't care
about it, it doesn't belong in the core.  Only beginners care about Sushi
store.  This is just my opinion of course, so take it with a grain of salt.

Ramon Leon
http://onsmalltalk.com

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RE: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Sebastian Sastre-2
In reply to this post by rhawley
Hi Bob,

        ideas like features and framework practices can be learned from code
examples. If you recall, it was told here that the Sushi example uses some
deprecated techniques so it simply has no sense to have in the core package
potentially replicating deprecated practices. That way is simply too easy to
inadvertedly be teaching what is wrong. I'm sure you may know how expensive
is to un-teach what is teached wrong. So applying for this case the criteria
of "when in doubt refrain yourself" seems intelligent decision to me.

        I imagine you want tools for teaching and is nothing wrong with
that. In fact is great you are using this for teaching so note that you can
use it anyway if you still find it useful and you filter the wrong part for
your students  but have in mind that may be that is not the same intention
the Seaside team is having (due to be unable to filter the same you will for
every independent newcomer non one of your students among other things).

        If what you want is a zero config situation for your students, why
don't you just load it in a fresh image to distribute among your students?
You can put other convenient examples for the way you plan to teach too and
also your own ones.

        cheers,

Sebastian Sastre

> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre
> de Robert Hawley
> Enviado el: Jueves, 22 de Noviembre de 2007 00:16
> Para: [hidden email]
> Asunto: [Seaside] SushiStore removed from Seaside
>
> Hi Ramon
>
> Your point is reasonable and makes sense - but I don't know
> if that was what was being argued.
>
> However, I would counter your (reasonable) point. It makes
> also good sense to put a good example of the use of Seaside
> within the core for the benefit of learners.  There are demo
> examples in the current image, but these do not provide a
> good template for learners to work from.
>
> However irritating the Sushi example was to the gurus, it did
> provide a common base for discussion. Even more importantly,
> its 'go' method demonstrated the simple elegance of Seaside
> very well. Take that away and you've taken away my sales-pitch!
>
> Not everyone is a guru. Learners stand the best chance of
> taking to Seaside if there is helpful code close at hand.
>
> Yours
>
> Bob
>
>
> ---------------
>
> Phillippe is right, examples might be nice, but they have no
> place in the core framework.  The examples are, and should be
> maintained as separate loadable applications.
>
> Ramon Leon
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

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SushiStore removed from Seaside

rhawley
In reply to this post by rhawley
Ramon

You say "Only beginners care about Sushi store" but that's my point - they
do care. Seaside needs to be introduced to people - it is not just for
gurus.

It provided a centre for discussion in the evolution, devolution and
teaching of Seaside. Those are still things that need servicing.

I don't particularly care about Sushi as such, but I do believe that it
served a role.  If it goes, we need a replacement.

Yours

Bob

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SushiStore removed from Seaside

rhawley
In reply to this post by rhawley
Hi Sebastian

I do want tools for teaching - ideally communal, standardised, well chosen
and easily available on the internet.

I have the problem of having to cope with deprecated techniques - seeing how
existing examples need to be modified would make shifting over easier for
people like me. Having put a lot of effort into learning Seaside I now find
myself having to re-learn it for a third time - and to be blunt I am a bit
fed up.  I don't have anyone around me to teach me and I find it very hard
to filter through the mass of 'stuff' about it on the internet.  I have
produced images, hand-outs, examples etc.., and now I have to do it yet
again.

If well chosen examples are available on the internet I (and many others
introducing Seaside) won't have to make images and load stuff time and again
when we want to show the product to people.

The 'zero config' image you talk of needs to be shared by the whole
community. It gives us something we can use for teaching and talk about at
conferences - and that people can later easily load up for themselves.

I stand by my assertion that a well chosen inbuilt example (along the lines
of Sushi) is well worth having. Probably I am not the person to write it - I
am not yet in tune with the new ways. (However, I have spent some time on it
and am part of the way in.)

If the gurus want a purist core, then perhaps we could have a demo core also
available in parallel?  It would be interesting to see which would get
downloaded more often.

Yours

Bob

--------------------


Hi Bob,

    ideas like features and framework practices can be learned from code
examples. If you recall, it was told here that the Sushi example uses some
deprecated techniques so it simply has no sense to have in the core package
potentially replicating deprecated practices. That way is simply too easy to
inadvertedly be teaching what is wrong. I'm sure you may know how expensive
is to un-teach what is teached wrong. So applying for this case the criteria
of "when in doubt refrain yourself" seems intelligent decision to me.

    I imagine you want tools for teaching and is nothing wrong with
that. In fact is great you are using this for teaching so note that you can
use it anyway if you still find it useful and you filter the wrong part for
your students  but have in mind that may be that is not the same intention
the Seaside team is having (due to be unable to filter the same you will for
every independent newcomer non one of your students among other things).

    If what you want is a zero config situation for your students, why
don't you just load it in a fresh image to distribute among your students?
You can put other convenient examples for the way you plan to teach too and
also your own ones.

    cheers,

Sebastian Sastre

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Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside

keith1y
In reply to this post by Ramon Leon-5

> There are several sample applications on SqueakSource for anyone wanting
> examples.  Aside from that, the Sushi store example was often broken and not
>  
Actually, first I have heard of them.... QED

Ok so if you move stuff into plug-ins this means that experienced users
can remove, or not invoke plugins that they do not want.

Lets try another analogy, if your first download experience of Squeak
had been pavel's gui-less kernel image, instead of a full-squeak with
etoys, sound, 3D wonderland and 2 faces singing harmonies would you have
given squeak a second glance?

Keith
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Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Roger Whitney
In reply to this post by rhawley
Examples are very important. People use them to learn how to use a  
system like Seaside. We need examples the size of SushiStore so people  
can see how to put together an application in Seaside. That said the  
core developers are doing a lot of work without maintaining SushiStore.

So we do need a core demo package that is as easy to find and download  
as the core Seaside. Which means we need someone to maintain the core  
demo package.

When people say that Sushistore is out of date are they talking about  
just the changes from Seaside 2.6 to 2.8 or are there major structural  
changes that need to be made to the example?


Roger whitney
Via iPhone

On Nov 22, 2007, at 7:24 AM, Robert Hawley <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> Hi Sebastian
>
> I do want tools for teaching - ideally communal, standardised, well  
> chosen
> and easily available on the internet.
>
> I have the problem of having to cope with deprecated techniques -  
> seeing how
> existing examples need to be modified would make shifting over  
> easier for
> people like me. Having put a lot of effort into learning Seaside I  
> now find
> myself having to re-learn it for a third time - and to be blunt I am  
> a bit
> fed up.  I don't have anyone around me to teach me and I find it  
> very hard
> to filter through the mass of 'stuff' about it on the internet.  I  
> have
> produced images, hand-outs, examples etc.., and now I have to do it  
> yet
> again.
>
> If well chosen examples are available on the internet I (and many  
> others
> introducing Seaside) won't have to make images and load stuff time  
> and again
> when we want to show the product to people.
>
> The 'zero config' image you talk of needs to be shared by the whole
> community. It gives us something we can use for teaching and talk  
> about at
> conferences - and that people can later easily load up for themselves.
>
> I stand by my assertion that a well chosen inbuilt example (along  
> the lines
> of Sushi) is well worth having. Probably I am not the person to  
> write it - I
> am not yet in tune with the new ways. (However, I have spent some  
> time on it
> and am part of the way in.)
>
> If the gurus want a purist core, then perhaps we could have a demo  
> core also
> available in parallel?  It would be interesting to see which would get
> downloaded more often.
>
> Yours
>
> Bob
>
> --------------------
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
>    ideas like features and framework practices can be learned from  
> code
> examples. If you recall, it was told here that the Sushi example  
> uses some
> deprecated techniques so it simply has no sense to have in the core  
> package
> potentially replicating deprecated practices. That way is simply too  
> easy to
> inadvertedly be teaching what is wrong. I'm sure you may know how  
> expensive
> is to un-teach what is teached wrong. So applying for this case the  
> criteria
> of "when in doubt refrain yourself" seems intelligent decision to me.
>
>    I imagine you want tools for teaching and is nothing wrong with
> that. In fact is great you are using this for teaching so note that  
> you can
> use it anyway if you still find it useful and you filter the wrong  
> part for
> your students  but have in mind that may be that is not the same  
> intention
> the Seaside team is having (due to be unable to filter the same you  
> will for
> every independent newcomer non one of your students among other  
> things).
>
>    If what you want is a zero config situation for your students, why
> don't you just load it in a fresh image to distribute among your  
> students?
> You can put other convenient examples for the way you plan to teach  
> too and
> also your own ones.
>
>    cheers,
>
> Sebastian Sastre
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
>
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Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Giles Bowkett
In reply to this post by keith1y
> > There are several sample applications on SqueakSource for anyone wanting
> > examples.  Aside from that, the Sushi store example was often broken and not
> >
> Actually, first I have heard of them.... QED
>
> Ok so if you move stuff into plug-ins this means that experienced users
> can remove, or not invoke plugins that they do not want.

I agree with this but I disagree with your other analogy. Finding
stuff is pretty weird for newbies. I'm still a noob, and the weirdness
of finding stuff is one of the big things that slowed me down. But:

> Lets try another analogy, if your first download experience of Squeak
> had been pavel's gui-less kernel image, instead of a full-squeak with
> etoys, sound, 3D wonderland and 2 faces singing harmonies would you have
> given squeak a second glance?

That I totally disagree with. The first thing I did when I started to
gain a little control over Squeak was figure out how to take all the
irrelevant widgets and trivialities off of my workspace.

--
Giles Bowkett

Podcast: http://hollywoodgrit.blogspot.com
Blog: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com
Portfolio: http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Tumblelog: http://giles.tumblr.com
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RE: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Sebastian Sastre-2
In reply to this post by rhawley
...

>
> I do want tools for teaching - ideally communal,
> standardised, well chosen and easily available on the internet.
>
> I have the problem of having to cope with deprecated
> techniques - seeing how existing examples need to be modified
> would make shifting over easier for people like me. Having
> put a lot of effort into learning Seaside I now find myself
> having to re-learn it for a third time - and to be blunt I am
> a bit fed up.  I don't have anyone around me to teach me and
> I find it very hard to filter through the mass of 'stuff'
> about it on the internet.  I have produced images, hand-outs,
> examples etc.., and now I have to do it yet again.
>
As I see or we develop resiliance to this or we give up. This is not
exclusive for Seaside nor Smalltalk. In fact Smalltalk solutions tend to
last longer because when they achieve enough conceptual correctness. Said
that: welcome to the re-learning re-inventing industry :)

> If well chosen examples are available on the internet I (and
> many others introducing Seaside) won't have to make images
> and load stuff time and again when we want to show the
> product to people.
>
But that depends on what you want to show and probably want to show
something with customized value. That's why I suggested to prepare your own
image ready for teach/distribute among students.

> The 'zero config' image you talk of needs to be shared by the
> whole community. It gives us something we can use for
> teaching and talk about at conferences - and that people can
> later easily load up for themselves.
>
All this has MIT licenses so I don't see why you cannot make a distributable
image, let's say in your own page or blog (in fact Ramon does exacly that),
and materializes what you are asking for at a very reasonable (personal)
effort.

> I stand by my assertion that a well chosen inbuilt example
> (along the lines of Sushi) is well worth having. Probably I
> am not the person to write it - I am not yet in tune with the
> new ways. (However, I have spent some time on it and am part
> of the way in.)
>
Why do you think you're not? You said you are a teacher and you understands
and teaches with Seaside what else do you need? If you need some "tunning"
then tune. You have this list of persons who dedicate some effort to support
your (and other's) technical questions.

> If the gurus want a purist core, then perhaps we could have a
> demo core also available in parallel?  It would be
> interesting to see which would get downloaded more often.
>
But Bob there are priorities. In this moment we cannot pretend to put the
responsibility of that in the shoulders of a very short in resources
development team. The sacrifices that it can imply as consequence will not
be reasonable. Besides don't think about gurus. Who care them. Nobody is
guru of a "non blind" person. It has also no value to push things to a
pointless comparision arena like which version is loaded more. There is no
richness in that. Just evaluate results of what can be done with this
machinery. Your results. Results of your students. Community results.
Technology should be intended to make a better life of persons involved on
the use of it. That's is richness and that should be "the goal". Make some
with Seaside if it's your choice.

I understand you're enthusiastic but with some disappointments about tools
for your goals. But that's life. Smalltalk has a relatively small community
and members use to surpass this some way or another by having, lot of times,
to invest effort on applying the criteria of: "if you think of it you can
materialize it".

Best regards,

Sebastian

> Yours
>
> Bob
>
> --------------------
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
>     ideas like features and framework practices can be
> learned from code examples. If you recall, it was told here
> that the Sushi example uses some deprecated techniques so it
> simply has no sense to have in the core package potentially
> replicating deprecated practices. That way is simply too easy
> to inadvertedly be teaching what is wrong. I'm sure you may
> know how expensive is to un-teach what is teached wrong. So
> applying for this case the criteria of "when in doubt refrain
> yourself" seems intelligent decision to me.
>
>     I imagine you want tools for teaching and is nothing
> wrong with that. In fact is great you are using this for
> teaching so note that you can use it anyway if you still find
> it useful and you filter the wrong part for your students  
> but have in mind that may be that is not the same intention
> the Seaside team is having (due to be unable to filter the
> same you will for every independent newcomer non one of your
> students among other things).
>
>     If what you want is a zero config situation for your
> students, why don't you just load it in a fresh image to
> distribute among your students?
> You can put other convenient examples for the way you plan to
> teach too and also your own ones.
>
>     cheers,
>
> Sebastian Sastre
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

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RE: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Ramon Leon-5
In reply to this post by keith1y
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of Keith Hodges
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 6:55 AM
> To: Seaside - general discussion
> Subject: Re: [Seaside] SushiStore removed from Seaside
>
>
> > There are several sample applications on SqueakSource for anyone
> > wanting examples.  Aside from that, the Sushi store example
> was often
> > broken and not
> >  
> Actually, first I have heard of them.... QED

You never once searched for seaside on squeaksource?  I just don't see
finding sample code as a real problem, it's there, easy to find and easy to
load.  If loading a package from squeaksource is too hard for a new users,
then they're not ready for app development in Seaside, because loading
packages is kind of necessary for that.  They have to learn Squeak before
they can be productive in Seaside, that's life.

> Ok so if you move stuff into plug-ins this means that
> experienced users can remove, or not invoke plugins that they
> do not want.

Which are by the way... The people actually using Seaside, so it makes sense
they'd decide that stuff doesn't belong in the core.

> Lets try another analogy, if your first download experience
> of Squeak had been pavel's gui-less kernel image, instead of
> a full-squeak with etoys, sound, 3D wonderland and 2 faces
> singing harmonies would you have given squeak a second glance?
>
> Keith

That's where there are kernels and distributions.  You can cram all that
into any distribution you like.  Damien has one that has Seaside, Pier, and
some other stuff, and there's the one click image from seaside.st, and
several others.  None of that justifies bloating the core kernel with
example code, that's what distributions are for.  You're blaming the kernel
for not being a suitable distribution, but it's not meant to be.  And
there's still plenty in there that can and probably should be stripped out
to make it even slimmer.

Ramon Leon
http://onsmalltalk.com

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Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Michael Davies-2
In reply to this post by Sebastian Sastre-2
On Nov 22, 2007 6:49 PM, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ...
> I understand you're enthusiastic but with some disappointments about tools
> for your goals. But that's life. Smalltalk has a relatively small community
> and members use to surpass this some way or another by having, lot of times,
> to invest effort on applying the criteria of: "if you think of it you can
> materialize it".
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sebastian

Hi Sebastian, All,

I think part of the problem is that the sushi store is widely
referenced on the web and mailing list archives, and so is seen by
newbies as a valuable learning tool. When they begin to realise that
there are problems with it, and raise this here, the replies they get
don't seem to acknowledge the importance of their confusion, and this
leads to frustration on both sides.

To try to head some of this misunderstanding off, I've updated some of
the references to the Sushi Store. I've updated the Seaside page at
http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2272 to warn people away from the Sushi
Store. I've also added some text to the wiki page linked from
http://www.squeaksource.com/SeasideExamples.html (should that page
really be world-editable?). Perhaps someone with a better
understanding of the issues with this application could add more
details of the nature of the problems with the application (this may
even inspire someone to update it!).

There are two other pages that it would be worth someone with access updating:
- the Tutorials page at http://www.seaside.st/documentation/tutorial
should explicitly warn people away from this deprecated code.
- the release notes at
http://www.seaside.st/community/development/seaside28 also seem to
encourage people to use the Sushi Store, perhaps that should read "The
*deprecated* Sushi Store is now its own package at Seaside Examples"

Cheers,
Michael
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Re: SushiStore removed from Seaside

Philippe Marschall
2007/11/22, Michael Davies <[hidden email]>:

> On Nov 22, 2007 6:49 PM, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > ...
> > I understand you're enthusiastic but with some disappointments about tools
> > for your goals. But that's life. Smalltalk has a relatively small community
> > and members use to surpass this some way or another by having, lot of times,
> > to invest effort on applying the criteria of: "if you think of it you can
> > materialize it".
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Sebastian
>
> Hi Sebastian, All,
>
> I think part of the problem is that the sushi store is widely
> referenced on the web and mailing list archives, and so is seen by
> newbies as a valuable learning tool. When they begin to realise that
> there are problems with it, and raise this here, the replies they get
> don't seem to acknowledge the importance of their confusion, and this
> leads to frustration on both sides.
>
> To try to head some of this misunderstanding off, I've updated some of
> the references to the Sushi Store. I've updated the Seaside page at
> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2272 to warn people away from the Sushi
> Store. I've also added some text to the wiki page linked from
> http://www.squeaksource.com/SeasideExamples.html (should that page
> really be world-editable?).

If someone wants do something about it instead of writing endless
mails about it I want to make it as easy for him as possible.

Cheers
Philippe

> Perhaps someone with a better
> understanding of the issues with this application could add more
> details of the nature of the problems with the application (this may
> even inspire someone to update it!).
>
> There are two other pages that it would be worth someone with access updating:
> - the Tutorials page at http://www.seaside.st/documentation/tutorial
> should explicitly warn people away from this deprecated code.
> - the release notes at
> http://www.seaside.st/community/development/seaside28 also seem to
> encourage people to use the Sushi Store, perhaps that should read "The
> *deprecated* Sushi Store is now its own package at Seaside Examples"
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
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