Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

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Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Janko Mivšek
Dear Swazooers,

During talking about licensing Swazoo under MIT, Ken Treis proposed that
Swazoo could be relicensed as MIT while Bruce develops Hyper under LGPL.
I had expected that we will succeed to merge back Swazoo and Hyper, but
as you read recently this now seems impossible. Regrettably, it seems
that me and Bruce are not on the line personally and this rift is just
widening.

I therefore think it will be better for the community if we return to
Ken's proposal: let the Hyper be LGLP while Swazoo is licensed under
MIT. That way anyone will have a choice where to contribute in the future.

Bruce will continue building Hyper on the original Swazoo code. Swazoo
development will continue (including the part of Bruce's code which
actually originates from before he announced the Hyper fork). With this
proposal, we actually solved the problem immediately.

Bruce, I appeal to you personally to go along with this proposal as a
pragmatic resolution of our differences which will allow us to get on
with what we really want to do: write great software.

Best regards
Janko


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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Bruce Badger
You are asking me to license my code as both a BSD-like  and a
share-alike license at the same time.

Is that correct?

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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Janko Mivšek
Bruce Badger wrote:
> You are asking me to license my code as both a BSD-like  and a
> share-alike license at the same time.
>
> Is that correct?

We can say that a copy of code from your branch which was merged to main
line I'm asking you to be licensed as MIT, while your branch, which
later become Hyper, stays LGPL.

Your merged code includes (from my memory) a whole request parsing
framework, SwazooTask idea and code, single threaded/multithreaded and
some other things.

Best regards
Janko


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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Bruce Badger
2008/7/10 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>:
> Bruce Badger wrote:
>> You are asking me to license my code as both a BSD-like  and a
>> share-alike license at the same time.

> We can say that a copy of code from your branch which was merged to main
> line I'm asking you to be licensed as MIT, while your branch, which
> later become Hyper, stays LGPL.

This would create the situation where some of my written works (e.g.
Smalltalk methods) would be licensed under both the BSD-like MIT
license and the share-alike LGPL at the same time.

Is that right?  I want to be really sure I understand what you are suggesting.

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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Janko Mivšek
Bruce Badger wrote:

> 2008/7/10 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>:
>> Bruce Badger wrote:
>>> You are asking me to license my code as both a BSD-like  and a
>>> share-alike license at the same time.
>
>> We can say that a copy of code from your branch which was merged to main
>> line I'm asking you to be licensed as MIT, while your branch, which
>> later become Hyper, stays LGPL.
>
> This would create the situation where some of my written works (e.g.
> Smalltalk methods) would be licensed under both the BSD-like MIT
> license and the share-alike LGPL at the same time.
>
> Is that right?  I want to be really sure I understand what you are suggesting.

I think yes. Most of methods and classes are actually just copied from
your branch. Probably everything in Swazoo-Headers while things in
Swazoo-Messages and Swazoo-HTTP are merged in more traditional sense.

JAnko


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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Bruce Badger
It seems to me that licensing a given work under both the LGPL and a
BSD-like license would render the LGPL meaningless for those works.

Isn't that right?

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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Randal L. Schwartz
>>>>> "Bruce" == Bruce Badger <[hidden email]> writes:

Bruce> It seems to me that licensing a given work under both the LGPL and a
Bruce> BSD-like license would render the LGPL meaningless for those works.

Bruce> Isn't that right?

Unless the BSD-like license is proven unenforceable in court.  The LGPL would
then still apply.

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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Janko Mivšek
In reply to this post by Bruce Badger
Bruce Badger wrote:

> It seems to me that licensing a given work under both the LGPL and a
> BSD-like license would render the LGPL meaningless for those works.
>
> Isn't that right?

There are already two branches so I don't see why LGPL would be
meaningless in Hyper branch. Also there are many examples where projects
split in two licenses and it doesn't seem that this would be a problem.

Also, a clear origin of changes can be determined in both cases, so the
origin of some code change can be easily determined to come from MIT
branch or LGPL one. Again protection of rights of contributors to both
branches is preserved.

But actual open question is only your code, merged into Swazoo branch.
For this one we asked you to dual license, then it goes forward in two
paths, as LGPL in Hyper and as MIT in Swazoo. Again, there are examples
from other projects out there, which worked well. All depends just of
the good will of contributors to agree. And I really hope we will agree
in our case too.

Best regards
Janko





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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Bruce Badger
On 22/07/2008, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Bruce Badger wrote:
>
>  > It seems to me that licensing a given work under both the LGPL and a
>  > BSD-like license would render the LGPL meaningless for those works.
>  >
>  > Isn't that right?
>
>
> There are already two branches so I don't see why LGPL would be
>  meaningless in Hyper branch.

Sorry, I don't get this.  Take one method that is in Hyper and imagine
that this method is made available under both the LGPL and a BSD-like
license.  In what way is the LGPL then enforcible for that method?

I think the LGPL would be meaningless in this case.  Do you disagree?
If so, could you please explain.

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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Janko Mivšek


Bruce Badger wrote:

> On 22/07/2008, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Bruce Badger wrote:
>>
>>  > It seems to me that licensing a given work under both the LGPL and a
>>  > BSD-like license would render the LGPL meaningless for those works.
>>  >
>>  > Isn't that right?
>>
>>
>> There are already two branches so I don't see why LGPL would be
>>  meaningless in Hyper branch.
>
> Sorry, I don't get this.  Take one method that is in Hyper and imagine
> that this method is made available under both the LGPL and a BSD-like
> license.  In what way is the LGPL then enforcible for that method?
>
> I think the LGPL would be meaningless in this case.  Do you disagree?
> If so, could you please explain.

Bruce,please go read all others who did that before and obviously in way
which keeps the water. I don't have a time to do that. For me is
convincable enough that others did it and survive.

Best regards
JAnko

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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Bruce Badger
On 22/07/2008, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  > I think the LGPL would be meaningless in this case.  Do you disagree?
>  > If so, could you please explain.
>
> Bruce,please go read all others ...

:-)

Well, you made the assertion which appears to contradict what I have
read.  I would be interested in hearing your explanation of why the
key share-and-share-alike  element of the LGPL does not become
meaningless if a method were also licensed under a BSD-like license.

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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Janko Mivšek
Bruce,

You know well that because others are for MIT, we will go with MIT. We
just invited you to stay with us with the code you contribute and it is
currently in Swazoo branch. That's all what we are asking you. And I
don't have time to open all that debate all over again. So please, stay
on the starting question and try to answer it as soon as possible.

Best regards
Janko


Bruce Badger wrote:

> On 22/07/2008, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  > I think the LGPL would be meaningless in this case.  Do you disagree?
>>  > If so, could you please explain.
>>
>> Bruce,please go read all others ...
>
> :-)
>
> Well, you made the assertion which appears to contradict what I have
> read.  I would be interested in hearing your explanation of why the
> key share-and-share-alike  element of the LGPL does not become
> meaningless if a method were also licensed under a BSD-like license.
>

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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Bruce Badger
On 22/07/2008, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
> So please, stay
>  on the starting question and try to answer it as soon as possible.

So you demand a clear answer from me, but I'm not allowed to
understand what I'm agreeing to?

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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Alan Knight-2
In reply to this post by Bruce Badger
I think "meaningless" is an excessively strong term. If the code never changes from that point forward, then yes, it would be meaningless because the "share alike" aspects of the license could be avoided by anyone who didn't want to share. However, a more likely scenario is that the versions under each license continue to be developed and diverge. At that point the LGPL branch gets the slightly better end of it because it can harvest improvements made to the BSD-licensed branch, but not the reverse. So dual licensing of that form effectively resets the license at the time it's done, and the significant difference is only with respect to future development on the two branches.

At 05:57 PM 7/21/2008, Bruce Badger wrote:
It seems to me that licensing a given work under both the LGPL and a
BSD-like license would render the LGPL meaningless for those works.

Isn't that right?

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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Nicholas Moore
It seems that the proposal being led by Janko would in practice be to Bruce's advantage. Swazoo is developed under MIT with some of Bruce's code in it and Swazoo-Hype (with some of Janko et al's code in it) is developed under LGPL. Swazoo-Hyper benefits from Swazoo's development, but not vice versa.

Looks like a slam dunk to me.


Alan Knight wrote:
I think "meaningless" is an excessively strong term. If the code never changes from that point forward, then yes, it would be meaningless because the "share alike" aspects of the license could be avoided by anyone who didn't want to share. However, a more likely scenario is that the versions under each license continue to be developed and diverge. At that point the LGPL branch gets the slightly better end of it because it can harvest improvements made to the BSD-licensed branch, but not the reverse. So dual licensing of that form effectively resets the license at the time it's done, and the significant difference is only with respect to future development on the two branches.

At 05:57 PM 7/21/2008, Bruce Badger wrote:
It seems to me that licensing a given work under both the LGPL and a
BSD-like license would render the LGPL meaningless for those works.

Isn't that right?

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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Bruce Badger
In reply to this post by Alan Knight-2
On 22/07/2008, Alan Knight <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  I think "meaningless" is an excessively strong term.

OK then, mostly meaningless. :-)

As you note, on the day of the dual licensing the LGPL would be
meaningless for all dual licensed code, except perhaps symbolically -
in particular, share-alike would be lost for all that code.

Looking into the future, if the code bases don't significantly diverge
then the day 1 situation persists and the LGPL remains mostly
meaningless.  If the code base does diverge then it's more likely that
ideas will flow between the two code bases rather than unaltered
pieces of code, if anything.

In between I see confusion and stress.  Was this bit of code included
in the dual licensing or not?  Oh, look, lets also dual license this
code too since all the other code is dual licensed etc etc etc

So, to use Nicholas' words: it seems like a slam-dunk.  But not the
way Nicholas meant.

Best regards,
    Bruce
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Re: Swazoo to MIT, Hyper stays LGPL?

Nicholas Moore
My meaning? I was pleased to see a solution with precedent (dual licensing) that could be applied to the present topic. My use of the term slam dunk was borne of satisfaction and happiness. Whereas Bruce's use of the phrase seems to be borne of an anxiety about future confusion and stress. My slam dunk means that, for me, an elegant solution is easily accomplished. Bruce's slam dunk (I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong :-) ) seems to mean that, for him, chaos and confusion are easily accomplished.  Meaning is obviously not an objective property, interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.

Given 1) a proposal, supported by the majority, to license Swazoo under MIT and 2) Bruce's clear and strongly expressed fears of the follow-on from dual licensing, I suggest that the community faces up to the consequence, which is a parting of the ways. From earlier posts I understand that this would mean removing some of Bruce's code from Swazoo and then licensing Swazoo under MIT. Since Janko and the other originators seem to be happy for Hyper to continue based on their original LGPLed work there would be no need for Hyper to change.

Does this seem like a reasonable summary? Are there any other realistic options?

Nicholas 


Bruce Badger wrote:
On 22/07/2008, Alan Knight [hidden email] wrote:
  
 I think "meaningless" is an excessively strong term.
    

OK then, mostly meaningless. :-)

As you note, on the day of the dual licensing the LGPL would be
meaningless for all dual licensed code, except perhaps symbolically -
in particular, share-alike would be lost for all that code.

Looking into the future, if the code bases don't significantly diverge
then the day 1 situation persists and the LGPL remains mostly
meaningless.  If the code base does diverge then it's more likely that
ideas will flow between the two code bases rather than unaltered
pieces of code, if anything.

In between I see confusion and stress.  Was this bit of code included
in the dual licensing or not?  Oh, look, lets also dual license this
code too since all the other code is dual licensed etc etc etc

So, to use Nicholas' words: it seems like a slam-dunk.  But not the
way Nicholas meant.

Best regards,
    Bruce
  

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