Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

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Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
Let me give everyone an update on what is going on with Scratch.app, I've seen lots of discussion and speculation flow by on the esug, scratch and pharo lists, some of it correct, and some of it incorrect.

First, Scratch.app was remove from sale in the app store because the Scratch programming language is an interpreted language, and it's not on the approved interpreted language list.  My understanding is that Apple has not yet rejected apps because they are "made" with a particular language.  The rejection is solely due to the result of Scratch being a non approved 'interpreted" language.

Second, I drafted a letter titled: "Rejecting an app with foundations in the Dynabook vision" and posted it to: https://devforums.apple.com/thread/46425

At this time, this letter is not for public viewing since I want to have more discussion with Apple and the paid Apple developer community. It seems having public rage about the unfairness about what Apple is doing just makes Apple less receptive to dialog. I would ask the community not to cross post my letter anywhere until we have had more discussions with Apple. As an example this morning there was talk with a member of the App review team about having this matter ending up on Phil Shiller's desk.

Third, I sent a copy of the letter to Steve Jobs.  He did respond.  Our incomplete conversation is private, no solution or decision has been reached, and due to Apple's earnings reports coming up next tuesday I don't foresee any activity on the matter until after that event.

Fourth, I have interest & support from Dr Alan Kay, Dr Mitchel Resnick, and others, I think people do take the matter about the freedom to write applications in a language of their choosing and using a particular implementation (interpreted, JIT, compiled) seriously, so I hope movement with Apple on the general topic will occur shortly.

Once Apple's management team has made a response I'm sure you will all hear about it.
 
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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Stéphane Ducasse
thanks john!

On Apr 16, 2010, at 8:09 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

> Let me give everyone an update on what is going on with Scratch.app, I've seen lots of discussion and speculation flow by on the esug, scratch and pharo lists, some of it correct, and some of it incorrect.
>
> First, Scratch.app was remove from sale in the app store because the Scratch programming language is an interpreted language, and it's not on the approved interpreted language list.  My understanding is that Apple has not yet rejected apps because they are "made" with a particular language.  The rejection is solely due to the result of Scratch being a non approved 'interpreted" language.
>
> Second, I drafted a letter titled: "Rejecting an app with foundations in the Dynabook vision" and posted it to: https://devforums.apple.com/thread/46425
>
> At this time, this letter is not for public viewing since I want to have more discussion with Apple and the paid Apple developer community. It seems having public rage about the unfairness about what Apple is doing just makes Apple less receptive to dialog. I would ask the community not to cross post my letter anywhere until we have had more discussions with Apple. As an example this morning there was talk with a member of the App review team about having this matter ending up on Phil Shiller's desk.
>
> Third, I sent a copy of the letter to Steve Jobs.  He did respond.  Our incomplete conversation is private, no solution or decision has been reached, and due to Apple's earnings reports coming up next tuesday I don't foresee any activity on the matter until after that event.
>
> Fourth, I have interest & support from Dr Alan Kay, Dr Mitchel Resnick, and others, I think people do take the matter about the freedom to write applications in a language of their choosing and using a particular implementation (interpreted, JIT, compiled) seriously, so I hope movement with Apple on the general topic will occur shortly.
>
> Once Apple's management team has made a response I'm sure you will all hear about it.
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> ===========================================================================
>
>
>
>
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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
In reply to this post by johnmci
This morning there was a huge rumbling of email in my in-box.
The result accumulated in Wired's nicely written article which you can find at http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/apple-scratch-app

At this time I have no further information to offer and I'm awaiting further communication from Apple.
Alan Kay did contribute to the article, I did not, other than various quotes Wired lifted from my letter in the Apple Developer Forums.

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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
Obviously I'm collecting media links on the issue http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Scratch.html
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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Graham McLeod
John
I think it is an excellent and balanced article.
That is likely to have much more impact than an emotional "boycott apple" reaction from within ESUG.
Please continue your efforts!
Graham

John M McIntosh wrote:
Obviously I'm collecting media links on the issue http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Scratch.html
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Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

stephane ducasse-2
In reply to this post by johnmci
would be nice to mention somewhere that esug pays for the Squeak on iphone VM...

Stef (we know that ESUG is cool but may be other still doubts about it :).

On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:41 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

> Obviously I'm collecting media links on the issue http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Scratch.html
> --
> ===========================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> ===========================================================================
>
>
>
>
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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Graham McLeod

On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:51 PM, Graham McLeod wrote:

> John
> I think it is an excellent and balanced article.
> That is likely to have much more impact than an emotional "boycott apple" reaction from within ESUG.

Give a turing award price and will be less emotional!
At each level its own reaction now if we do not do anything as plain idiot normal programmers then may be
we deserve it.

Stef

> Please continue your efforts!
> Graham
>
> John M McIntosh wrote:
>> Obviously I'm collecting media links on the issue http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Scratch.html
>>
>> --
>> ===========================================================================
>> John M. McIntosh
>> <[hidden email]>
>>    Twitter:  squeaker68882
>> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  
>> http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
>>
>> ===========================================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>
>>  
>>
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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Igor Stasenko
On 20 April 2010 23:35, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:51 PM, Graham McLeod wrote:
>
>> John
>> I think it is an excellent and balanced article.
>> That is likely to have much more impact than an emotional "boycott apple" reaction from within ESUG.
>
> Give a turing award price and will be less emotional!
> At each level its own reaction now if we do not do anything as plain idiot normal programmers then may be
> we deserve it.
>

Stef, i can't parse it.
Anyways.
Squeak VM are actively porting to Android. So lets just use the normal
hardware which having no idiotic restrictions
and can be programmed with anything what its owner wants to run on it.

> Stef
>
>> Please continue your efforts!
>> Graham
>>
>> John M McIntosh wrote:
>>> Obviously I'm collecting media links on the issue http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Scratch.html
>>>
>>> --
>>> ===========================================================================
>>> John M. McIntosh
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>    Twitter:  squeaker68882
>>> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.
>>> http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
>>>
>>> ===========================================================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>>
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

stephane ducasse

>>> JohnI think it is an excellent and balanced article.
>>> That is likely to have much more impact than an emotional "boycott apple" reaction from within ESUG.
>>
>> Give a turing award price and will be less emotional!
>> At each level its own reaction now if we do not do anything as plain idiot normal programmers then may be
>> we deserve it.
>>
>
> Stef, i can't parse it.

I know I was in the middle of compiling a method....

"Give me a Turing award prize and I will be less emotional"
=> subtitle
        "been cool and calm is the merit of people with power.
        So this article is calm yes. I did not think that ESUG could not write a politically correct
        announce stating that Apple 3.3.1 is against our own freedom."

Then another meta remark:
        did esug officially issued a announce? No because we are waiting to see how the situation is involving?
        So?
        Now as mentioned the scratch guy in the article, Apple is messing up their image quite well in fact.
        May be they are really becoming the Microsoft of the 90e. Too sad. http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png

        Of course there is a lot of money in play: because we could use squeak/pharo to build videos player that shunt itunes....
        or we could do it in flash. Yes Apple wants to protect its treasure. Now they could solve it at another level than at the programming
        language level.

>> At each level its own reaction now if we do not do anything as plain idiot normal programmers then may be
>> we deserve it.


"Even though complaining about a company's behavior often has no effect, people should still complain when a company's actions hurt them in some way.  If we don't say anything, people who are not programmers will not understand how Apple's decision hurts programmers."

and yes android is the right answer even if I do not believe that big organization are naively nice

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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Michel Tilman
> May be they are really becoming the Microsoft of the 90e. Too sad. http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png

What is happening right now reminded me a lot of the 1984 superbowl commercial.

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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
In reply to this post by johnmci
Morning, I've posted the letter I had posted to the Apple developer forums and sent to Steve Jobs at

http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Interpreters.html

I'll suggest there was some lifting of concept and quotes by Wired from letter.

As of this morning I have no further news, I have heard thru various sources that the issue is not dead yet,
 
So I wait.

On 2010-04-16, at 11:09 AM, John M McIntosh wrote:

> Let me give everyone an update on what is going on with Scratch.app

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Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

stephane ducasse
Good!
John in future version it may be good to mention that ESUG supported this VM work for the iphone.

STef

On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:12 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

> Morning, I've posted the letter I had posted to the Apple developer forums and sent to Steve Jobs at
>
> http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Interpreters.html
>
> I'll suggest there was some lifting of concept and quotes by Wired from letter.
>
> As of this morning I have no further news, I have heard thru various sources that the issue is not dead yet,
>
> So I wait.
>
> On 2010-04-16, at 11:09 AM, John M McIntosh wrote:
>
>> Let me give everyone an update on what is going on with Scratch.app
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> ===========================================================================
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci

On 2010-04-21, at 1:13 PM, stephane ducasse wrote:

> Good!
> John in future version it may be good to mention that ESUG supported this VM work for the iphone.
>
> STef

Yes, I did conduct a magazine interview today where I ensured I did mentioned that ESUG funding was
instrumental in getting the foundations of Scratch (aka Squeak VM) onto the iPhone, otherwise it
would never have happened.

As everyone should be aware Scratch as an interpreted language is not allowed, but in the
future Smalltalk as a language not on the short list is not allowed even if it's hidden from view
or ultimately cross compiled into an Objective-C application.
 
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Re: [squeak-dev] Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

stephane ducasse

On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:26 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

>
> On 2010-04-21, at 1:13 PM, stephane ducasse wrote:
>
>> Good!
>> John in future version it may be good to mention that ESUG supported this VM work for the iphone.
>>
>> STef
>
> Yes, I did conduct a magazine interview today where I ensured I did mentioned that ESUG funding was
> instrumental in getting the foundations of Scratch (aka Squeak VM) onto the iPhone, otherwise it
> would never have happened.

Excellent!

> As everyone should be aware Scratch as an interpreted language is not allowed, but in the
> future Smalltalk as a language not on the short list is not allowed even if it's hidden from view
> or ultimately cross compiled into an Objective-C application.

Great! But nothing really new on that front.

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Re: [squeak-dev] Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

stephane ducasse
In reply to this post by stephane ducasse

On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:29 PM, Phil (list) wrote:

> I've been surprised that I haven't seen any statement from ESUG re: how these policies negatively impact the future prospects for Smalltalk on the iPhone/iPad and the investments they've made in the platform to date that Apple seems willing to wipe out.  Wouldn't now be a good time to try to get some visibility on the larger issue?

We were waiting to get news from the scratch story.
And also I'm not a really good politically correct person to write that so
any text to start with would help the board to produce a statement going in that direction.

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Re: [squeak-dev] Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
Phil, last week I asked the smalltalk community (ESUG  etc), to stay claim and wait for Apple to think about it based on an email
exchange I had with Steve Jobs. At the time I thought it prudent to wait a further decision or statement.

Give that Wired publish Alan & my thoughts on the matter it's likely now time to consider what to do next.  
 
So this is NOT the fault of ESUG not being proactive, they were itching to do something.  

At the moment I believe they are collecting ideas how to approach the problem in a meaningful manner.
Suggestions are welcome.

 
On 2010-04-21, at 1:29 PM, Phil (list) wrote:

> I've been surprised that I haven't seen any statement from ESUG re: how these policies negatively impact the future prospects for Smalltalk on the iPhone/iPad and the investments they've made in the platform to date that Apple seems willing to wipe out.  Wouldn't now be a good time to try to get some visibility on the larger issue?
>
> Phil

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Re: [squeak-dev] Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Hilaire Fernandes-4


2010/4/21 John M McIntosh <[hidden email]>
Phil, last week I asked the smalltalk community (ESUG  etc), to stay claim and wait for Apple to think about it based on an email
exchange I had with Steve Jobs. At the time I thought it prudent to wait a further decision or statement.

Give that Wired publish Alan & my thoughts on the matter it's likely now time to consider what to do next.

So this is NOT the fault of ESUG not being proactive, they were itching to do something.

At the moment I believe they are collecting ideas how to approach the problem in a meaningful manner.
Suggestions are welcome.

I guess you already though about this one but hit *gently* where it hurts: Google.

Explain there a few things: in one hand Apple decided to wipe out non home dev. tools, in the other hand Android is wide open, then Google support dynamic languages, and Smalltalk particularly, throught GSoC initiative.

Hilaire


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Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
In reply to this post by johnmci

On 2010-04-22, at 6:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic language put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
> web page. Apple will get a bad press.


Yes well I don't think that will achieve much.

Personally I think that the people here involved in the education & university domains need to write actual paper based letters on their
institution's letter head and mail them to the Apple education reps for their countries stating their concern about Apple's legal agreements
that appear to lockout the iPad for extraordinary use in the computer science curriculum.  

This involves passionately arguing for the ability to program, or teach in something other than C, C++, Obj-C or Javascript, I"m sure others are
more capable than me in composing that, as a software engineer my words aren't worth much, but I think computer science departments should
be voicing their concern on the direction where things appear to be going.

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Re: Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Stéphane Ducasse
if we start to make the intersection between smalltalk and university and education
then we will end up to nothing. zero ok one or two, now individually
we can take the responsibility to say what we think about apple attitude and I will do it for myself.


Stef

On Apr 22, 2010, at 5:15 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

>
> On 2010-04-22, at 6:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
>> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic language put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>> web page. Apple will get a bad press.
>
>
> Yes well I don't think that will achieve much.
>
> Personally I think that the people here involved in the education & university domains need to write actual paper based letters on their
> institution's letter head and mail them to the Apple education reps for their countries stating their concern about Apple's legal agreements
> that appear to lockout the iPad for extraordinary use in the computer science curriculum.  
>
> This involves passionately arguing for the ability to program, or teach in something other than C, C++, Obj-C or Javascript, I"m sure others are
> more capable than me in composing that, as a software engineer my words aren't worth much, but I think computer science departments should
> be voicing their concern on the direction where things appear to be going.
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> ===========================================================================
>
>
>
>
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Re: Re: [Pharo-project] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci

On 2010-04-22, at 11:43 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> if we start to make the intersection between smalltalk and university and education
> then we will end up to nothing. zero ok one or two, now individually
> we can take the responsibility to say what we think about apple attitude and I will do it for myself.
>
>
> Stef

It's not just intersection of Smalltalk,  let me ramble, APL, Cobol, Fortran, Lisp, Basic, Lua , Ruby, Perl, Simula, Algol68, PL/I  no doubt there are a few
more, that is what is at risk.

Or do educational institutes only dabble and teach in C++ still?

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