The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

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The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Mariano Martinez Peck


If someone is interested, these are all the packages I needed to install in order not to have problems in my Ubuntu 9.10:

sudo apt-get install linux-libc-dev libecasound2.2-dev libasound2-dev libc6-dev gnulib libc6-dev libpulse-dev libxrender-dev uuid-dev

Should be on Pharo website, given the popularity of Ubuntu.


I was thinking to add that to the readme.txt. Laurent, can you please download VM:

http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24736/pharo-vm-0.15.2f-linux.zip

From my point of view, we need to distribute a Linux VM that:

- Has a easy way to install. I think your VM is cool in these point. I found Exupery a bit more tricky.
- Has FreeType installed
- Has an EXCELLENT README.TXT that explains how to compile from source, how to install it, how to use it, and a FAQ for tipical questions. For example, in Ubuntu, these libraries has to be installed in order to compile. What happend with 64 bits? All that has to be explained in that file
- In the README.TXT we also have to put links for help: squeakvm site, posts like Laurent or Adrain
- Gunification
- It needs to have a name of PharoXXX. Not squeak. This is VERY confusing for newcomers.
- It has to include sources. I know a lot of people that says "I won't put anything in production that I cannot compile by myself first".
- It has to be a Standard VM, not Exupery. Exupery without the exupery package, has no sense at all. It is in Pharo download just because of history reasons. Bryce was very helpful and was the first in put closures in the VM. So, we used that. Now, it has no sense anymore.
- Pass all PharoRC3 tests in green
- The process has to be repeatable. Someone has to be able to came in 1 year, donwload the same VM and repeat the steps without major problems.
- The readme.txt has to include the SVN revision where the C code was taken.
- It would also be good to said which ConfigurationOfVmMaker version was used.

Cheers

Mariano


 


Ok.....but not only plugins. For exaple, if I don't want UTF-8 ?


errr... maybe it's time to ask to the vm-dev list :)
 


ufff.....what an idiot...thanks!  did you already discovered I am a newbie here ? :)


Me too, but a little less every day :)

Laurent Laffont

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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

laurent laffont
2010/3/28 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>


If someone is interested, these are all the packages I needed to install in order not to have problems in my Ubuntu 9.10:

sudo apt-get install linux-libc-dev libecasound2.2-dev libasound2-dev libc6-dev gnulib libc6-dev libpulse-dev libxrender-dev uuid-dev

Should be on Pharo website, given the popularity of Ubuntu.


I was thinking to add that to the readme.txt. Laurent, can you please download VM:

http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24736/pharo-vm-0.15.2f-linux.zip


Yes.

 
From my point of view, we need to distribute a Linux VM that:

- Has a easy way to install. I think your VM is cool in these point. I found Exupery a bit more tricky.
- Has FreeType installed
- Has an EXCELLENT README.TXT that explains how to compile from source, how to install it, how to use it, and a FAQ for tipical questions. For example, in Ubuntu, these libraries has to be installed in order to compile. What happend with 64 bits? All that has to be explained in that file

I don't know, my system is 32 bits, don't have the courage to install a 64 bits one :)

 
- In the README.TXT we also have to put links for help: squeakvm site, posts like Laurent or Adrain
- Gunification
- It needs to have a name of PharoXXX. Not squeak. This is VERY confusing for newcomers.

I agree we need to explain better the distinction between the VM and the image. I'm not sure about renaming squeak-vm -> pharo-vm. It's not a fork. I tend to think it will bring higher confusion.
 
- It has to include sources. I know a lot of people that says "I won't put anything in production that I cannot compile by myself first".

Yes, I'm one of those people :)
 
- It has to be a Standard VM, not Exupery. Exupery without the exupery package, has no sense at all. It is in Pharo download just because of history reasons. Bryce was very helpful and was the first in put closures in the VM. So, we used that. Now, it has no sense anymore.

I haven't been able to build Exupery ...
 
- Pass all PharoRC3 tests in green
- The process has to be repeatable. Someone has to be able to came in 1 year, donwload the same VM and repeat the steps without major problems.
- The readme.txt has to include the SVN revision where the C code was taken.
- It would also be good to said which ConfigurationOfVmMaker version was used.


Agree.

Maybe you can open a git repository on INRIA servers so we can keep track of patches + README included in the VM for Pharo. I've used Javier and Levente patches and these are not included in squeak-vm svn. I sent a mail last week on vm-dev but no answers.
This way builders can do:
git clone git://......squeak-vm
cd ..squeak-vm../build
... configure && make && make install.
For packagers it would be cool.
Developpers can have their own branches and submit patches more easily, add more visibility.
With git-svn we can synchronize from official Squeak-VM svn (until they switched to git or another DVCS :)

What do you think ?

Laurent Laffont
 
Cheers

Mariano


 


Ok.....but not only plugins. For exaple, if I don't want UTF-8 ?


errr... maybe it's time to ask to the vm-dev list :)
 


ufff.....what an idiot...thanks!  did you already discovered I am a newbie here ? :)


Me too, but a little less every day :)

Laurent Laffont

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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Mariano Martinez Peck


 
- In the README.TXT we also have to put links for help: squeakvm site, posts like Laurent or Adrain
- Gunification
- It needs to have a name of PharoXXX. Not squeak. This is VERY confusing for newcomers.

I agree we need to explain better the distinction between the VM and the image. I'm not sure about renaming squeak-vm -> pharo-vm. It's not a fork. I tend to think it will bring higher confusion.

I don't agree. Image you are a new comer. For you, Pharo is Pharo. You probaly have no idea what Squeak is. So...you go to Pharo website, and download the image, and the VM. Imagine when you go to download the VM and it says "SqueakVM". I would say "WTF?????"    "WTF is squeak?"
I am not saying forking the VM. Just to rename it. Actually, the windows VM has that name: "http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26654/PharoVM-Win32-3.11.8.zip"
And the same with exupery: "http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24736/pharo-vm-0.15.2f-linux.zip"

 
 

 
- Pass all PharoRC3 tests in green
- The process has to be repeatable. Someone has to be able to came in 1 year, donwload the same VM and repeat the steps without major problems.
- The readme.txt has to include the SVN revision where the C code was taken.
- It would also be good to said which ConfigurationOfVmMaker version was used.


Agree.

Maybe you can open a git repository on INRIA servers so we can keep track of patches + README included in the VM for Pharo. I've used Javier and Levente patches and these are not included in squeak-vm svn. I sent a mail last week on vm-dev but no answers.
This way builders can do:
git clone git://......squeak-vm
cd ..squeak-vm../build
... configure && make && make install.
For packagers it would be cool.
Developpers can have their own branches and submit patches more easily, add more visibility.
With git-svn we can synchronize from official Squeak-VM svn (until they switched to git or another DVCS :)

What do you think ?


I like the idea....but what about the sync with the public/official SVN repo ? how we will be able to merge ? or the GIT repo will be only for patches ?

Cheers

Mariano

 
Laurent Laffont
 
Cheers

Mariano


 


Ok.....but not only plugins. For exaple, if I don't want UTF-8 ?


errr... maybe it's time to ask to the vm-dev list :)
 


ufff.....what an idiot...thanks!  did you already discovered I am a newbie here ? :)


Me too, but a little less every day :)

Laurent Laffont

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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

SergeStinckwich
2010/3/29 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>:

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> - In the README.TXT we also have to put links for help: squeakvm site,
>>> posts like Laurent or Adrain
>>> - Gunification
>>> - It needs to have a name of PharoXXX. Not squeak. This is VERY confusing
>>> for newcomers.
>>
>> I agree we need to explain better the distinction between the VM and the
>> image. I'm not sure about renaming squeak-vm -> pharo-vm. It's not a fork. I
>> tend to think it will bring higher confusion.
>
> I don't agree. Image you are a new comer. For you, Pharo is Pharo. You
> probaly have no idea what Squeak is. So...you go to Pharo website, and
> download the image, and the VM. Imagine when you go to download the VM and
> it says "SqueakVM". I would say "WTF?????"    "WTF is squeak?"
> I am not saying forking the VM. Just to rename it. Actually, the windows VM
> has that name:
> "http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26654/PharoVM-Win32-3.11.8.zip"
> And the same with exupery:
> "http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24736/pharo-vm-0.15.2f-linux.zip"

Yes and also having a Pharo icon and not a Squeak one.

--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://doesnotunderstand.org/

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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Mariano Martinez Peck


On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 4:23 AM, Serge Stinckwich <[hidden email]> wrote:
2010/3/29 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>:
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> - In the README.TXT we also have to put links for help: squeakvm site,
>>> posts like Laurent or Adrain
>>> - Gunification
>>> - It needs to have a name of PharoXXX. Not squeak. This is VERY confusing
>>> for newcomers.
>>
>> I agree we need to explain better the distinction between the VM and the
>> image. I'm not sure about renaming squeak-vm -> pharo-vm. It's not a fork. I
>> tend to think it will bring higher confusion.
>
> I don't agree. Image you are a new comer. For you, Pharo is Pharo. You
> probaly have no idea what Squeak is. So...you go to Pharo website, and
> download the image, and the VM. Imagine when you go to download the VM and
> it says "SqueakVM". I would say "WTF?????"    "WTF is squeak?"
> I am not saying forking the VM. Just to rename it. Actually, the windows VM
> has that name:
> "http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26654/PharoVM-Win32-3.11.8.zip"
> And the same with exupery:
> "http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24736/pharo-vm-0.15.2f-linux.zip"

Yes and also having a Pharo icon and not a Squeak one.


Yes! The windows VM has already that. The MacVM, I sent an email few months ago to explain how to do it.
If you want, I can upload a Squeak 4.2.2beta1U.app   but with the Pharo icons and named Pharo 4.2.2beta1U.app
Then we link from the website to that VM. What do you think ?

I know there are newer MacOS VMs, but they are still in beta and for the Pharo 1.0 I think the best VM is the 4.2.2.beta1

What do you think ?

Cheers

Mariano
 
--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://doesnotunderstand.org/

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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Henrik Sperre Johansen

On Mar 29, 2010, at 9:29 45AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

>
> Yes! The windows VM has already that. The MacVM, I sent an email few months ago to explain how to do it.
> If you want, I can upload a Squeak 4.2.2beta1U.app   but with the Pharo icons and named Pharo 4.2.2beta1U.app
> Then we link from the website to that VM. What do you think ?
>
> I know there are newer MacOS VMs, but they are still in beta and for the Pharo 1.0 I think the best VM is the 4.2.2.beta1
>
> What do you think ?
>
> Cheers
>
> Mariano

Please use 4.2.3.beta1, as it includes the bitblt fixes which affects StrikeFont rendering.
So if someone switches to Bitmap DejaVu fonts, they don't have to be annoyed their text looks strange when dragging windows :)

Cheers,
Henry
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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

laurent laffont
In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
2010/3/29 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>


 
- In the README.TXT we also have to put links for help: squeakvm site, posts like Laurent or Adrain
- Gunification
- It needs to have a name of PharoXXX. Not squeak. This is VERY confusing for newcomers.

I agree we need to explain better the distinction between the VM and the image. I'm not sure about renaming squeak-vm -> pharo-vm. It's not a fork. I tend to think it will bring higher confusion.

I don't agree. Image you are a new comer. For you, Pharo is Pharo. You probaly have no idea what Squeak is. So...you go to Pharo website, and download the image, and the VM. Imagine when you go to download the VM and it says "SqueakVM". I would say "WTF?????"    "WTF is squeak?"
I am not saying forking the VM. Just to rename it. Actually, the windows VM has that name: "http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/26654/PharoVM-Win32-3.11.8.zip"
And the same with exupery: "http://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/24736/pharo-vm-0.15.2f-linux.zip"


OK. So this is one more argument to have a git repository to snapshot VM sources + patches for Pharo. Then the VM build process should produce binaries named pharo / pharovm / pharo.sh for all platforms. I don't know if it's easy, I'll try to take a look.
 
Maybe you can open a git repository on INRIA servers so we can keep track of patches + README included in the VM for Pharo. I've used Javier and Levente patches and these are not included in squeak-vm svn. I sent a mail last week on vm-dev but no answers.
This way builders can do:
git clone git://......squeak-vm
cd ..squeak-vm../build
... configure && make && make install.
For packagers it would be cool.
Developpers can have their own branches and submit patches more easily, add more visibility.
With git-svn we can synchronize from official Squeak-VM svn (until they switched to git or another DVCS :)

What do you think ?


I like the idea....but what about the sync with the public/official SVN repo ? how we will be able to merge ? or the GIT repo will be only for patches ?

You can have a git branch synchronized with squeak-vm subversion (see http://progit.org/book/ch8-1.html), a git branch for pharo-vm. Then push regularly changes from squeak-vm branch to pharo-vm branch.
Maybe there's a git expert reading this list ? (I'm not one).

Laurent Laffont
 

Cheers

Mariano

 
Laurent Laffont
 
Cheers

Mariano


 


Ok.....but not only plugins. For exaple, if I don't want UTF-8 ?


errr... maybe it's time to ask to the vm-dev list :)
 


ufff.....what an idiot...thanks!  did you already discovered I am a newbie here ? :)


Me too, but a little less every day :)

Laurent Laffont

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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Mariano Martinez Peck
In reply to this post by Henrik Sperre Johansen


On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 6:16 AM, Henrik Johansen <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mar 29, 2010, at 9:29 45AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

>
> Yes! The windows VM has already that. The MacVM, I sent an email few months ago to explain how to do it.
> If you want, I can upload a Squeak 4.2.2beta1U.app   but with the Pharo icons and named Pharo 4.2.2beta1U.app
> Then we link from the website to that VM. What do you think ?
>
> I know there are newer MacOS VMs, but they are still in beta and for the Pharo 1.0 I think the best VM is the 4.2.2.beta1
>
> What do you think ?
>
> Cheers
>
> Mariano

Please use 4.2.3.beta1, as it includes the bitblt fixes which affects StrikeFont rendering.
So if someone switches to Bitmap DejaVu fonts, they don't have to be annoyed their text looks strange when dragging windows :)


Thanks Henrik I wasn't aware (actually, I think I forgot) about that. I have just tested and seems to work perfect. All tests pass and it is a little (very little) more faster than 4.2.2. So...I agree we should put 4.2.3.beta1.

Cheers

Mariano

 
Cheers,
Henry
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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

johnmci
In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck

On 2010-03-29, at 12:29 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

Yes! The windows VM has already that. The MacVM, I sent an email few months ago to explain how to do it.
If you want, I can upload a Squeak 4.2.2beta1U.app   but with the Pharo icons and named Pharo 4.2.2beta1U.app
Then we link from the website to that VM. What do you think ?

I know there are newer MacOS VMs, but they are still in beta and for the Pharo 1.0 I think the best VM is the 4.2.2.beta1

What do you think ?

Cheers

Mariano 

That would be a 4.2.3b1  VM since it contains the bitblt fixes that the Squeak folks wanted. I have no 
idea how that impacts text rendering on Pharo.  

Also this week I will ship a 4.2.4b1 VM which is the result of some Squeak 4.0 base VM merge processing and contains the fix to enable the loading of old image segments used I guess by squeakmap?

Frankly in all of this perhaps we should consider the use of the Version 5. 0 macintosh cocoa VM running in 32bit mode? 

--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================





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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Mariano Martinez Peck


2010/3/29 John M McIntosh <[hidden email]>

On 2010-03-29, at 12:29 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

Yes! The windows VM has already that. The MacVM, I sent an email few months ago to explain how to do it.
If you want, I can upload a Squeak 4.2.2beta1U.app   but with the Pharo icons and named Pharo 4.2.2beta1U.app
Then we link from the website to that VM. What do you think ?

I know there are newer MacOS VMs, but they are still in beta and for the Pharo 1.0 I think the best VM is the 4.2.2.beta1

What do you think ?

Cheers

Mariano 

That would be a 4.2.3b1  VM since it contains the bitblt fixes that the Squeak folks wanted. I have no 
idea how that impacts text rendering on Pharo.  


Uffff sorry John. My bad. I wanted to say 4.2.3.b1, thanks.

 
Also this week I will ship a 4.2.4b1 VM which is the result of some Squeak 4.0 base VM merge processing and contains the fix to enable the loading of old image segments used I guess by squeakmap?



I am not sure.  ImageSegment is a full of c...and maybe it will be even removed. It was not working since a lot of time and nobody says anything. We even started to remove part of it in Pharo. And SqueakMap was completely removed.

I think for Pharo 1.0 is better a well tested VM like the 4.2.3.b1 is, and let version 5 for Pharo 1.1.

What do you think ?

Cheers

Mariano
 
Frankly in all of this perhaps we should consider the use of the Version 5. 0 macintosh cocoa VM running in 32bit mode? 

--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================





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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Adrian Lienhard

On Mar 29, 2010, at 21:52 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

> 2010/3/29 John M McIntosh <[hidden email]>
>
>> Also this week I will ship a 4.2.4b1 VM which is the result of some Squeak
>> 4.0 base VM merge processing and contains the fix to enable the loading of
>> old image segments used I guess by squeakmap?
>>
>>
>
> I am not sure.  ImageSegment is a full of c...and maybe it will be even
> removed. It was not working since a lot of time and nobody says anything.

Mariano, I know you know image segments, but I think this is may be confusing for others. So I like to say something ;)

Image segments work very well; both from a reliability and performance point of view. We are using them for hundreds of customers. DabbleDB uses images segments as well AFAIK.

There are two parts, the primitives implemented by the VM in C and the image-side code. The code in the image consists of support code to load and store a segment and on top of this there is code for swapping in/out classes, projects etc. Especially the latter is a mess and we already started cleaning it. As images segments are not used by core code we also consider moving it into a separate, external package (of course, the primitives should stay in the VM).

> We
> even started to remove part of it in Pharo. And SqueakMap was completely
> removed.

Yes, SqueakMap is not relevant anymore for Pharo. Hence, this VM fix is not critical for us.

Cheers,
Adrian
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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Mariano Martinez Peck


On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mar 29, 2010, at 21:52 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

> 2010/3/29 John M McIntosh <[hidden email]>
>
>> Also this week I will ship a 4.2.4b1 VM which is the result of some Squeak
>> 4.0 base VM merge processing and contains the fix to enable the loading of
>> old image segments used I guess by squeakmap?
>>
>>
>
> I am not sure.  ImageSegment is a full of c...and maybe it will be even
> removed. It was not working since a lot of time and nobody says anything.

Mariano, I know you know image segments, but I think this is may be confusing for others. So I like to say something ;)

Image segments work very well; both from a reliability and performance point of view. We are using them for hundreds of customers. DabbleDB uses images segments as well AFAIK.

There are two parts, the primitives implemented by the VM in C and the image-side code. The code in the image consists of support code to load and store a segment and on top of this there is code for swapping in/out classes, projects etc. Especially the latter is a mess and we already started cleaning it. As images segments are not used by core code we also consider moving it into a separate, external package (of course, the primitives should stay in the VM).


Thanks for the remark Adrian :)   I know you know more for ImageSegments than all of us.

As you said, it works pretty well for a piece of the domain. For example, in your case, you just export the segment, but did you try to swap them out (but letting the segment inside) and load it again ? it was broken. Exporting a segment, and bring them back again but where classes were modified or removed in the image, was broken also. If you load segments from older versions, it was broken too (this was what they fixed now). The symbols, you explained me that problem. In your case it works perfect because, as you say, almost only use the primitives, no more. But that's a very limited piece of ImageSegment. That piece, in that way, it works.

For big segments, I am not sure if it works well neither. The segment allocates more than 2 times what needed. In DabbleDB I read they had that problem. The segments were too big, that having to allocate 2 or 3 times, crash everything.

Cheers

Mariano

 
> We
> even started to remove part of it in Pharo. And SqueakMap was completely
> removed.

Yes, SqueakMap is not relevant anymore for Pharo. Hence, this VM fix is not critical for us.

Cheers,
Adrian
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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Alexandre Bergel
Thanks Adrian and Mariano for this interesting discussion.

Alexandre


On 29 Mar 2010, at 16:23, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]>  
> wrote:
>
> On Mar 29, 2010, at 21:52 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>
> > 2010/3/29 John M McIntosh <[hidden email]>
> >
> >> Also this week I will ship a 4.2.4b1 VM which is the result of  
> some Squeak
> >> 4.0 base VM merge processing and contains the fix to enable the  
> loading of
> >> old image segments used I guess by squeakmap?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I am not sure.  ImageSegment is a full of c...and maybe it will be  
> even
> > removed. It was not working since a lot of time and nobody says  
> anything.
>
> Mariano, I know you know image segments, but I think this is may be  
> confusing for others. So I like to say something ;)
>
> Image segments work very well; both from a reliability and  
> performance point of view. We are using them for hundreds of  
> customers. DabbleDB uses images segments as well AFAIK.
>
> There are two parts, the primitives implemented by the VM in C and  
> the image-side code. The code in the image consists of support code  
> to load and store a segment and on top of this there is code for  
> swapping in/out classes, projects etc. Especially the latter is a  
> mess and we already started cleaning it. As images segments are not  
> used by core code we also consider moving it into a separate,  
> external package (of course, the primitives should stay in the VM).
>
>
> Thanks for the remark Adrian :)   I know you know more for  
> ImageSegments than all of us.
>
> As you said, it works pretty well for a piece of the domain. For  
> example, in your case, you just export the segment, but did you try  
> to swap them out (but letting the segment inside) and load it  
> again ? it was broken. Exporting a segment, and bring them back  
> again but where classes were modified or removed in the image, was  
> broken also. If you load segments from older versions, it was broken  
> too (this was what they fixed now). The symbols, you explained me  
> that problem. In your case it works perfect because, as you say,  
> almost only use the primitives, no more. But that's a very limited  
> piece of ImageSegment. That piece, in that way, it works.
>
> For big segments, I am not sure if it works well neither. The  
> segment allocates more than 2 times what needed. In DabbleDB I read  
> they had that problem. The segments were too big, that having to  
> allocate 2 or 3 times, crash everything.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mariano
>
>
> > We
> > even started to remove part of it in Pharo. And SqueakMap was  
> completely
> > removed.
>
> Yes, SqueakMap is not relevant anymore for Pharo. Hence, this VM fix  
> is not critical for us.
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
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^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.






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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Bryce Kampjes
In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
On Sun, 2010-03-28 at 18:21 -0300, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>
> - It has to be a Standard VM, not Exupery. Exupery without the exupery
> package, has no sense at all. It is in Pharo download just because of
> history reasons. Bryce was very helpful and was the first in put
> closures in the VM. So, we used that. Now, it has no sense anymore.

If you're not using Exupery it should make no difference if you're using
an Exupery VM or not. It's just a regular VM with a few small hooks in
it.

That said, I'd prefer to put my Squeak/Pharo time into Exupery so am
very happy that other people are maintaining the general purpose VMs.

Bryce



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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Adrian Lienhard
In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Mar 29, 2010, at 22:23 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Mar 29, 2010, at 21:52 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>>
>>> 2010/3/29 John M McIntosh <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>> Also this week I will ship a 4.2.4b1 VM which is the result of some
>> Squeak
>>>> 4.0 base VM merge processing and contains the fix to enable the loading
>> of
>>>> old image segments used I guess by squeakmap?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am not sure.  ImageSegment is a full of c...and maybe it will be even
>>> removed. It was not working since a lot of time and nobody says anything.
>>
>> Mariano, I know you know image segments, but I think this is may be
>> confusing for others. So I like to say something ;)
>>
>> Image segments work very well; both from a reliability and performance
>> point of view. We are using them for hundreds of customers. DabbleDB uses
>> images segments as well AFAIK.
>>
>> There are two parts, the primitives implemented by the VM in C and the
>> image-side code. The code in the image consists of support code to load and
>> store a segment and on top of this there is code for swapping in/out
>> classes, projects etc. Especially the latter is a mess and we already
>> started cleaning it. As images segments are not used by core code we also
>> consider moving it into a separate, external package (of course, the
>> primitives should stay in the VM).
>>
>>
> Thanks for the remark Adrian :)   I know you know more for ImageSegments
> than all of us.
>
> As you said, it works pretty well for a piece of the domain. For example, in
> your case, you just export the segment, but did you try to swap them out
> (but letting the segment inside) and load it again ? it was broken.
> Exporting a segment, and bring them back again but where classes were
> modified or removed in the image, was broken also. If you load segments from
> older versions, it was broken too (this was what they fixed now). The
> symbols, you explained me that problem. In your case it works perfect
> because, as you say, almost only use the primitives, no more. But that's a
> very limited piece of ImageSegment. That piece, in that way, it works.

Yes, exactly. And I think that's the most important piece and the one valuable to maintain. We just create a segment, write it to disc, and read it back from there into a fresh image. The only problem we had was with the symbols you mentioned above. We do migrations with scripts inside the image so that the segment's instances are always in sync with the code of the image we load them into.

> For big segments, I am not sure if it works well neither. The segment
> allocates more than 2 times what needed. In DabbleDB I read they had that
> problem. The segments were too big, that having to allocate 2 or 3 times,
> crash everything.

Depends on what you think is big. Most of our segments are smaller than 50MB but I have seen larger ones that worked too.

Cheers,
Adrian


> Cheers
>
> Mariano
>
>
>
>>> We
>>> even started to remove part of it in Pharo. And SqueakMap was completely
>>> removed.
>>
>> Yes, SqueakMap is not relevant anymore for Pharo. Hence, this VM fix is not
>> critical for us.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Stéphane Ducasse
would be nice to have a **new** and separate package with clean code for your scenario adrian.

Stef

On Mar 30, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote:

>
> On Mar 29, 2010, at 22:23 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 29, 2010, at 21:52 , Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2010/3/29 John M McIntosh <[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>>> Also this week I will ship a 4.2.4b1 VM which is the result of some
>>> Squeak
>>>>> 4.0 base VM merge processing and contains the fix to enable the loading
>>> of
>>>>> old image segments used I guess by squeakmap?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure.  ImageSegment is a full of c...and maybe it will be even
>>>> removed. It was not working since a lot of time and nobody says anything.
>>>
>>> Mariano, I know you know image segments, but I think this is may be
>>> confusing for others. So I like to say something ;)
>>>
>>> Image segments work very well; both from a reliability and performance
>>> point of view. We are using them for hundreds of customers. DabbleDB uses
>>> images segments as well AFAIK.
>>>
>>> There are two parts, the primitives implemented by the VM in C and the
>>> image-side code. The code in the image consists of support code to load and
>>> store a segment and on top of this there is code for swapping in/out
>>> classes, projects etc. Especially the latter is a mess and we already
>>> started cleaning it. As images segments are not used by core code we also
>>> consider moving it into a separate, external package (of course, the
>>> primitives should stay in the VM).
>>>
>>>
>> Thanks for the remark Adrian :)   I know you know more for ImageSegments
>> than all of us.
>>
>> As you said, it works pretty well for a piece of the domain. For example, in
>> your case, you just export the segment, but did you try to swap them out
>> (but letting the segment inside) and load it again ? it was broken.
>> Exporting a segment, and bring them back again but where classes were
>> modified or removed in the image, was broken also. If you load segments from
>> older versions, it was broken too (this was what they fixed now). The
>> symbols, you explained me that problem. In your case it works perfect
>> because, as you say, almost only use the primitives, no more. But that's a
>> very limited piece of ImageSegment. That piece, in that way, it works.
>
> Yes, exactly. And I think that's the most important piece and the one valuable to maintain. We just create a segment, write it to disc, and read it back from there into a fresh image. The only problem we had was with the symbols you mentioned above. We do migrations with scripts inside the image so that the segment's instances are always in sync with the code of the image we load them into.
>
>> For big segments, I am not sure if it works well neither. The segment
>> allocates more than 2 times what needed. In DabbleDB I read they had that
>> problem. The segments were too big, that having to allocate 2 or 3 times,
>> crash everything.
>
> Depends on what you think is big. Most of our segments are smaller than 50MB but I have seen larger ones that worked too.
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>
>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Mariano
>>
>>
>>
>>>> We
>>>> even started to remove part of it in Pharo. And SqueakMap was completely
>>>> removed.
>>>
>>> Yes, SqueakMap is not relevant anymore for Pharo. Hence, this VM fix is not
>>> critical for us.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Adrian
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pharo-project mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by johnmci
John

it is really important that 1.0 is working very well so we can start pushing 5.0 for 1.1.
Now
        who is using 5.0 ?
        what are the problem left? I got some glitches like not been able to open two images but this was
        at the beginning. Now I thought that 5.0 was not officially out.
       
Stef
       

On Mar 29, 2010, at 9:47 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

> Frankly in all of this perhaps we should consider the use of the Version 5. 0 macintosh cocoa VM running in 32bit mode?


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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

johnmci
Well 5.0 is still in Alpha.
Feedback is slow, so the issue is how to drive acceptance?

The problem with the 64bit  VM with 32bit images  is that all the plugins have to be recompiled. Mind I did do the FreeType one.
However I was thinking that we could run the 5.0 VM in 32bit mode and use the existing plugins to minimize impact.

On 2010-03-30, at 11:46 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> John
>
> it is really important that 1.0 is working very well so we can start pushing 5.0 for 1.1.
> Now
> who is using 5.0 ?
> what are the problem left? I got some glitches like not been able to open two images but this was
> at the beginning. Now I thought that 5.0 was not officially out.
>
> Stef
>
>
> On Mar 29, 2010, at 9:47 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:
>
>> Frankly in all of this perhaps we should consider the use of the Version 5. 0 macintosh cocoa VM running in 32bit mode?
>
--
===========================================================================
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Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

Marcus Denker-4

On Mar 31, 2010, at 9:25 AM, John M McIntosh wrote:

> Well 5.0 is still in Alpha.
> Feedback is slow, so the issue is how to drive acceptance?
>

I suggest to release 1.0 with the altest 4er Mac VM, than advacate 5.0 for 1.1.

        Marcus

> The problem with the 64bit  VM with 32bit images  is that all the plugins have to be recompiled. Mind I did do the FreeType one.
> However I was thinking that we could run the 5.0 VM in 32bit mode and use the existing plugins to minimize impact.
>
> On 2010-03-30, at 11:46 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
>> John
>>
>> it is really important that 1.0 is working very well so we can start pushing 5.0 for 1.1.
>> Now
>> who is using 5.0 ?
>> what are the problem left? I got some glitches like not been able to open two images but this was
>> at the beginning. Now I thought that 5.0 was not officially out.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>> On Mar 29, 2010, at 9:47 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:
>>
>>> Frankly in all of this perhaps we should consider the use of the Version 5. 0 macintosh cocoa VM running in 32bit mode?
>>
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> ===========================================================================
>
>
>
>
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Re: The Pharo Linux Vm [WAS] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

johnmci

On 2010-03-31, at 12:29 AM, Marcus Denker wrote:

> I suggest to release 1.0 with the altest 4er Mac VM, than advacate 5.0 for 1.1.
>
> Marcus

Agreeable

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