The Second Coming of Java article
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http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/09/the-second-coming-of-java/
The article talks about Java Virtual Machine running dynamic languages like Scala and Clojure in addition to Java. What prevents the Smalltalk Virtual Machine from running Java, Scala, Clojure and other JVM languages? Is that something we can ride on to greater awareness and usage of Smalltalk Virtual Machine and Smalltalk? All the best, Aik-Siong Koh |
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On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 2:51 AM, askoh <[hidden email]> wrote: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/09/the-second-coming-of-java/ _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by askoh
I guess if somebody came up with an "Oh look, our Smalltalk VM can run
Java, too", the reaction would be a simple "so what?". It's not that this hasn't been done and tried. It is feasible and it has been many years ago, but nobody cared. And what exactly would the benefit for Smalltalk be if somebody chose to run Scala, Clojure, whatever on a Smalltalk VM? For VM maintainers that are focussed towards Smalltalk, it would mean more trouble and support cases. It sure is another story if somebody planned to build one VM to run them all: Smalltalk, Java, Clojure, Scala, Ruby, whatnot. Who could that possibly be and who would pay for that? Would such a beast run all Smalltalk dialects? Would vendors care? And still, more awareness for a VM doesn't mean more awareness for one of the languages that run on top of it. Joachim Am 24.11.13 22:21, schrieb askoh: > http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/09/the-second-coming-of-java/ > > The article talks about Java Virtual Machine running dynamic languages like > Scala and Clojure in addition to Java. What prevents the Smalltalk Virtual > Machine from running Java, Scala, Clojure and other JVM languages? Is that > something we can ride on to greater awareness and usage of Smalltalk Virtual > Machine and Smalltalk? > > All the best, > Aik-Siong Koh > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Second-Coming-of-Java-article-tp4724933.html > Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:[hidden email] Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: The Second Coming of Java article
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On 25 Nov 2013, at 6:43 pm, [hidden email] wrote: > I guess if somebody came up with an "Oh look, our Smalltalk VM can run Java, too", the reaction would be a simple "so what?". > It's not that this hasn't been done and tried. It is feasible and it has been many years ago, but nobody cared. > And what exactly would the benefit for Smalltalk be if somebody chose to run Scala, Clojure, whatever on a Smalltalk VM? For VM maintainers that are focussed towards Smalltalk, it would mean more trouble and support cases. > > It sure is another story if somebody planned to build one VM to run them all: Smalltalk, Java, Clojure, Scala, Ruby, whatnot. Who could that possibly be and who would pay for that? Would such a beast run all Smalltalk dialects? Would vendors care? > > And still, more awareness for a VM doesn't mean more awareness for one of the languages that run on top of it. All +1. Furthermore, the JVM is an order of magnitude more complex and sophisticated than Smalltalk VMs in order to achieve really good performance. Antony Blakey -------------------------- Ph: +61 438 840 787 75% of statistics are made up on the spot. _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by jtuchel
If StVM can run JVM languages, won't Smalltalk have perfect compatibility with those languages and their libraries? That would help Smalltalk itself.
Would the StVM give JVM languages the capability to debug just like in Smalltalk: rewind, doit, edit and run, etc.? Aik-Siong Koh |
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Smalltalk is more of an environment than it is a language atop a given VM. Say you convinced a vendor - Cincom or Instantiations - to push their Smalltalk onto the JVM. That would be a pretty big project. For the N years it took to build that, you would see a tremendous slowdown in new features from that vendor - and when they were "done", you , as the end customer, would almost certainly face some level of migration - things would run a little differently in the new system than they did in the old one. As well, some bugs would be unfixable by the vendor in question - you would end up submitting requests for VM changes to Oracle (can you say voice in the wilderness?)
All in all, I'm not entirely certain that you would would end up with anything that you could call a win at the end of that. Which is not to say that I don't like efforts like Redline - but note that there's no existing customer base to deal with there. On Nov 25, 2013, at 11:18 AM, askoh <[hidden email]> wrote: > If StVM can run JVM languages, won't Smalltalk have perfect compatibility > with those languages and their libraries? That would help Smalltalk itself. > > Would the StVM give JVM languages the capability to debug just like in > Smalltalk: rewind, doit, edit and run, etc.? > > Aik-Siong Koh > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Second-Coming-of-Java-article-tp4724933p4725116.html > Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc James Robertson http://www.jarober.com [hidden email] _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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I agree JVM is not suitable for Smalltalk because of lack of dynamic features. I am talking about Smalltalk VM running Java, Scala, Closure, code and libraries - expanding Smalltalk's universe. Can SVM give Java, Scala Closure better debuggers?
Aik-Siong Koh |
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Way back in the day, ParcPlace tried something along those lines: ObjectWorks C++. By all accounts, it was a very cool environment - and the C++ developer community yawned.
Now, consider the modern landscape. Oracle puts out a free, and pretty fast JVM. Say one of the Smalltalk vendors invested the (large) amount of money required to support Java on their VM. Never mind things like thread support - this vendor would be trying to sell a product into a market that currently gets a pretty good JVM for free. How exactly would that work? On Nov 25, 2013, at 3:04 PM, askoh <[hidden email]> wrote: > I agree JVM is not suitable for Smalltalk because of lack of dynamic > features. I am talking about Smalltalk VM running Java, Scala, Closure, code > and libraries - expanding Smalltalk's universe. Can SVM give Java, Scala > Closure better debuggers? > > Aik-Siong Koh > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Second-Coming-of-Java-article-tp4724933p4725177.html > Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc James Robertson http://www.jarober.com [hidden email] _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: The Second Coming of Java article
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In reply to this post by askoh
Shen would be an interesting, albeit relatively unknown, language to port to Smalltalk.
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In reply to this post by jtuchel
Yes, more or less :-) For Smalltalk as such, there won't be hardly any benefit. For Smalltalkers, for sure there is. Believe or not, there are very nice java libraries out there and if not exactly nice, they are there and work. Just talk about XML support: Do you need decent, fast XML parser - in Smalltalk? You would have to write it yourself. Need to validate against W3C XML Schema or RelaxNG schema - well, you'd better sit down and start reading spec. Want to send messages over XMPP, use XSLT 2.0 transformations... Being able to suck in Java code is really handy, I can tell you. Yes, poor VM guys, but who ever cared about them :-) Also, having all the dynamic features of Smalltalk in Java make quite attractive Java development environment. Since we've done it, I rarely start eclipse/IDEA to browse and develop Java code... |
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In reply to this post by jarober
Agree, you can hardly sell at JVM to Java customers. But what about Smalltalk customers, if you tell them "look, now you can use this vast amount of libraries"? Don't you think this could be the selling point? |
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From the perspective of the vendors, I'm not sure. It would make migrating off Smalltalk easier, which isn't exactly a goal of theirs :)
On Nov 25, 2013, at 5:40 PM, Jan Vrany <[hidden email]> wrote: > jarober wrote >> Now, consider the modern landscape. Oracle puts out a free, and pretty >> fast JVM. Say one of the Smalltalk vendors invested the (large) amount of >> money required to support Java on their VM. Never mind things like thread >> support - this vendor would be trying to sell a product into a market that >> currently gets a pretty good JVM for free. >> >> How exactly would that work? > > Agree, you can hardly sell at JVM to Java customers. But what about > Smalltalk customers, if you tell them > "look, now you can use this vast amount of libraries"? Don't you think this > could be the selling point? > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Second-Coming-of-Java-article-tp4724933p4725210.html > Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc James Robertson http://www.jarober.com [hidden email] _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: The Second Coming of Java article
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Isn't that a little like saying that that VB programmers will start programming in C++ because most DLLs are written in C++?
-Carl
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:52 PM, James Robertson <[hidden email]> wrote: From the perspective of the vendors, I'm not sure. It would make migrating off Smalltalk easier, which isn't exactly a goal of theirs :) _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
Re: The Second Coming of Java article
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In reply to this post by askoh
Visualage for Java Smalltalk dev environment for Java. Very nice. Included Envy as well. On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 2:04 PM, askoh <[hidden email]> wrote: I agree JVM is not suitable for Smalltalk because of lack of dynamic _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by askoh
I had post in Pharo Smalltalk Developer forum too. There Jan Vrany replied:
" Well, nothing atually:-) It's already done. Smalltalk/X virtual machine can run Java bytecode and thus all sort of JVM languages :-) Cheers, Jan [1] https://swing.fit.cvut.cz/projects/stx-libjava [2] Marcel Hlopko, Jan Kurš, Jan Vraný, and Claus Gittinger. On the Integration of Smalltalk and Java ̇ http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2012/International-Workshop---IWST-2012/Proceedings.pdf , page 1 :-) [3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21z3bAt7b0&list=PLCGAAdUizzH027lLWKXh_44cGuEsay7-R&index=7 [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3J554BNEz8 " Let us verify STX:LIBJAVA is ready for showtime and think of the possibilities that lay ahead. I think this is important development for Smalltalk and software in general. Smalltalk like debugging in all programming languages is great progress for mankind. All the best, Aik-Siong Koh |
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On 26/11/13 03:55, askoh wrote:
> I had post in Pharo Smalltalk Developer forum too. There Jan Vrany replied: > > " > Well, nothing atually:-) It's already done. Smalltalk/X virtual > machine can run Java bytecode and thus all sort of JVM languages :-) > > Cheers, Jan > > [1] https://swing.fit.cvut.cz/projects/stx-libjava > [2] Marcel Hlopko, Jan Kurš, Jan Vraný, and Claus Gittinger. > On the Integration of Smalltalk and Java ̇ > http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2012/International-Workshop---IWST-2012/Proceedings.pdf > , page 1 :-) > > [3] > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21z3bAt7b0&list=PLCGAAdUizzH027lLWKXh_44cGuEsay7-R&index=7 > [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3J554BNEz8 > " > > Let us verify STX:LIBJAVA is ready for showtime and think of the > possibilities that lay ahead. I think this is important development for > Smalltalk and software in general. Smalltalk like debugging in all > programming languages is great progress for mankind. > As I already said the stuff is still in research phase (resources are scarce). But it can do interesting things already. Give it a try, if you like. I'm more than interested in your experience and willing to help you. Now, I'm not sure this is the right place where to discuss this thing. Therefore I encourage all interested to more to STX:LIBJAVA mailing list [1] and not spam this list :-) [1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/stxlibjava-dev Jan _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Hi Jan,
just to get things straight: I am not saying that an effort towards making the STVM capable of running Java is a bad thing. In fact I think your project is cool and opens a lot of opportiunities, like using Java libraries from Smalltalk in an easy way. I just wanted to say that I don't think putting loads of effort and money into a general ST VM that runs Java or any of the other languages that were mentioned will help Smalltalk become more popular or accepted. Joachim Am 26.11.13 11:15, schrieb Jan Vrany: > On 26/11/13 03:55, askoh wrote: >> I had post in Pharo Smalltalk Developer forum too. There Jan Vrany >> replied: >> >> " >> Well, nothing atually:-) It's already done. Smalltalk/X virtual >> machine can run Java bytecode and thus all sort of JVM languages :-) >> >> Cheers, Jan >> >> [1] https://swing.fit.cvut.cz/projects/stx-libjava >> [2] Marcel Hlopko, Jan Kurš, Jan Vraný, and Claus Gittinger. >> On the Integration of Smalltalk and Java ̇ >> http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2012/International-Workshop---IWST-2012/Proceedings.pdf >> >> , page 1 :-) >> >> [3] >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21z3bAt7b0&list=PLCGAAdUizzH027lLWKXh_44cGuEsay7-R&index=7 >> >> [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3J554BNEz8 >> " >> >> Let us verify STX:LIBJAVA is ready for showtime and think of the >> possibilities that lay ahead. I think this is important development for >> Smalltalk and software in general. Smalltalk like debugging in all >> programming languages is great progress for mankind. >> > > As I already said the stuff is still in research phase (resources > are scarce). But it can do interesting things already. > Give it a try, if you like. I'm more than interested in your > experience and willing to help you. > > Now, I'm not sure this is the right place where to discuss this thing. > Therefore I encourage all interested to more to STX:LIBJAVA mailing > list [1] and not spam this list :-) > > [1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/stxlibjava-dev > > Jan > > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:[hidden email] Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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