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The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

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horrido

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

Actually, Seaside does figure prominently in the campaign. You can see it in my article "The Smalltalk Revolution" where it's visible in the two graphics. Seaside is also mentioned, both explicitly and implicitly, at the Smalltalk Renaissance website. I regard Pharo, Seaside, and Amber as a troika for promoting Smalltalk as "the future of Smart Web Development."

I will try to solicit some input from the Seaside community for the campaign. Since I've not used Seaside for a number of years, I am no longer technically qualified to discuss Seaside. For that matter, I'm not really technically qualified to discuss Pharo, either. I've only ever used Squeak, and that was 8 years ago!

On Friday, 23 January 2015 02:11:28 UTC-5, StephaneDucasse wrote:

for the web you should also talk about
Seaside
Seaside-Rest

Stef
On 23 Jan 2015, at 05:23, Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="MKOLkcPMKQgJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...> wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog has heard about the <a href="https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;">Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at <a href="http://forum.world.st" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG1xFBZj8IE-cHPr7JhqK6GBS_sqQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG1xFBZj8IE-cHPr7JhqK6GBS_sqQ';return true;">forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

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Martin Bähr

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by Ben Coman-3

Excerpts from Ben Coman's message of 2015-01-23 18:07:44 +0100:
> Thanks Martin. I see where you are coming from. btw, maybe these two
> frameworks fit your philosophy...
> * Flow - https://github.com/flow-stack/flow
> * Tide - https://github.com/tide-framework/tide

i looked at those briefly.
problem is i can't figure out how closely coupled front and backend are.

the appeal of using a RESTful API is that it fully decouples the front and backend.
i can write either in any way i want, and change them or even replace them at
will without having to make any changes on the other side.

that means, if i build a site with tide or flow, at any point i want to be able
to replace the amber frontend with one basedon angular, ember or something
else. even better, i expect to be able to run multiple different frontends
side-by-side.

likewise i expect to be able to replace the pharo backend with something
completely different .

the reverse is true too: if i write a frontend with amber, against some
existing backend, will tide or flow be able to pick that up, or will they force
me to rewrite the frontend to match?

can i switch between flow and tide without rewriting the amber frontend?

how much does flow depend on mongo? can i use a different database? (do i even
need one? for simple apps saving in the image should be enough)

the choice for a database very much depends on the data model, which depends on
the application. limiting a framework to a specific database reduces the
usability for cases where that database is the right fit.

greetings, martin.

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horrido

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by horrido

I've published a new essay on the Seaside framework: https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/2015/01/24/the-heretic-web-framework/

Your feedback is appreciated.

Thanks.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 22:36:00 UTC-5, Richard Eng wrote:

Actually, Seaside does figure prominently in the campaign. You can see it in my article "The Smalltalk Revolution" where it's visible in the two graphics. Seaside is also mentioned, both explicitly and implicitly, at the Smalltalk Renaissance website. I regard Pharo, Seaside, and Amber as a troika for promoting Smalltalk as "the future of Smart Web Development."

I will try to solicit some input from the Seaside community for the campaign. Since I've not used Seaside for a number of years, I am no longer technically qualified to discuss Seaside. For that matter, I'm not really technically qualified to discuss Pharo, either. I've only ever used Squeak, and that was 8 years ago!

On Friday, 23 January 2015 02:11:28 UTC-5, StephaneDucasse wrote:
for the web you should also talk about
Seaside
Seaside-Rest

Stef
On 23 Jan 2015, at 05:23, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog has heard about the <a href="https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;">Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at <a href="http://forum.world.st" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG1xFBZj8IE-cHPr7JhqK6GBS_sqQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG1xFBZj8IE-cHPr7JhqK6GBS_sqQ';return true;">forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

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sebastianconcept

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by horrido

Good!

Lets do it

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 2:32:11 AM UTC-2, Richard Eng wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog have heard about the <a href="https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow" style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;">Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all future SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at <a href="http://forum.world.st/" rel="nofollow" style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEqLfvh2O2bl5cW9PCjvPrSo7yPUA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEqLfvh2O2bl5cW9PCjvPrSo7yPUA';return true;">forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

sebastianconcept

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by cedreek

Hey Cedrick,

no worries!

The last flow version has a tutorial-like sample application (furiously coded without CSS in mind :D)

https://github.com/flow-stack/flow

Also this should give you an idea:

https://medium.com/@sebastianconcpt/app-main-and-other-controller-accessors-84abe31e483e

Reviews and all kind of feedback is welcome!

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 3:34:31 PM UTC-2, Cédrick Béler wrote:

My 2 cents,

I see meteor as a cool alternative, especially the philosophy behind reactive data (DDP) [1]. I guess flow goes into this direction, but I haven’t tried it yet. Actually, I haven’t really succeeded in trying amber (beyond coding in the browser). BTW Sebastian, do you have some kind of tutorial app (for a flow app - sorry if I missed stuff because wasn’t really following evolution recently) ?

Having DDP in smalltalk would be cool I think (publicity on meteor site which is hype [3] and a way to interact with such apps). But again I don’t really consider myself as a specialist.
There’s DDS already in Smalltalk which is a bit to DDP what SOAP is to REST (impression confirmed by a meteor developper). Don’t know the effort to port such work (ruby version [2]) (and if not redondant) but I finally have some time te develop a bit again in the next 6 months so I’ll try to have a look into that and ask questions here and there.

Cheers,

Cédrick

[1]<a href="https://github.com/meteor/meteor/blob/devel/packages/ddp/DDP.md" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmeteor%2Fmeteor%2Fblob%2Fdevel%2Fpackages%2Fddp%2FDDP.md\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHPV9UtUsxuskaXT8NlKj3qgHzHMA';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmeteor%2Fmeteor%2Fblob%2Fdevel%2Fpackages%2Fddp%2FDDP.md\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHPV9UtUsxuskaXT8NlKj3qgHzHMA';return true;">https://github.com/meteor/meteor/blob/devel/packages/ddp/DDP.md
[2]<a href="https://github.com/tmeasday/ruby-ddp-client" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Ftmeasday%2Fruby-ddp-client\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGI7u9lWIkYDGgCqX9-i80rvGJ3kQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Ftmeasday%2Fruby-ddp-client\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGI7u9lWIkYDGgCqX9-i80rvGJ3kQ';return true;">https://github.com/tmeasday/ruby-ddp-client
[3]<a href="http://meteorpedia.com/read/DDP_Clients" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fmeteorpedia.com%2Fread%2FDDP_Clients\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGAndfZmMrmgL2c0KbvYz3qDvvFyQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fmeteorpedia.com%2Fread%2FDDP_Clients\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGAndfZmMrmgL2c0KbvYz3qDvvFyQ';return true;">http://meteorpedia.com/read/DDP_Clients

ps:

Le 23 janv. 2015 à 18:07, Ben Coman <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="F8-bbBLqZEAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">benjamin...@...> a écrit :

Thanks Martin. I see where you are coming from. btw, maybe these two frameworks fit your philosophy...
* Flow - <a href="https://github.com/flow-stack/flow" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fflow-stack%2Fflow\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF5BwEOtBIYcI8Y1bU-VPlQaOLcBg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fflow-stack%2Fflow\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF5BwEOtBIYcI8Y1bU-VPlQaOLcBg';return true;">https://github.com/flow-stack/flow
* Tide - <a href="https://github.com/tide-framework/tide" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Ftide-framework%2Ftide\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEpeH57kf2d3mPsGPwjuMyMXBx6Bg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Ftide-framework%2Ftide\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEpeH57kf2d3mPsGPwjuMyMXBx6Bg';return true;">https://github.com/tide-framework/tide
cheers -ben

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:40 AM, Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="F8-bbBLqZEAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...> wrote:
Please note: I am NOT saying that Seaside is unimportant. There will always be a place for server side. However, as Martin indicated, use cases for server side are starting to drop off.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 09:15:43 UTC-5, Richard Eng wrote:
Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 02:11:28 UTC-5, StephaneDucasse wrote:
for the web you should also talk about
Seaside
Seaside-Rest

Stef
On 23 Jan 2015, at 05:23, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog has heard about the <a href="https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;">Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at <a href="http://forum.world.st/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEqLfvh2O2bl5cW9PCjvPrSo7yPUA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEqLfvh2O2bl5cW9PCjvPrSo7yPUA';return true;">forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

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