The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
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Re: Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
 
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On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not (clearly it is). The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk projects under ESUG umbrella? If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] Re: The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
On 11 February 2014 01:30, Alexander Lazarević <[hidden email]> wrote:
you are blah-blahtly unethical! shame on you! :)
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
:) Sorry, not very serious but still: "Newspeak is a new programming language in the tradition of Self and Smalltalk" [http://newspeaklanguage.org/] "Pharo is a clean, innovative, open-source Smalltalk-inspired environment" [http://www.pharo-project.org/home]
Should we ban Pharo projects because it's not Smalltalk, but only "Smalltalk-inspired"? I guess Ruby can also call itself Smalltalk-inspired? According to these definitions, Newspeak is even more Smalltalk-ish then Pharo :)
And seriously, I think we discuss something else, not what Janko wanted to say… But anyway, I think we should simply stop this discussion now, and concentrate on our objectives (GSoC and others). And I hope some time later the topic will calm down, Janko and Stéphane will find a way to revise their positions towards collaboration, handshaking and even friendship for benefits of Smalltalk and all IT community.
-- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2014-02-11 2:56 GMT+04:00 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>:
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Re: The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
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In reply to this post by Luc Fabresse
Janko, You have already thrown a brick. I don't understand your refusal to throw stones. Who is being accused of doing what? Spell it out for us. Sent from my Samsung S III -------- Original message -------- From: Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> Date: 2014/02/10 02:57 (GMT-08:00) To: [hidden email] Cc: ESUG Mailing list <[hidden email]>,Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>,The general-purpose Squeak developers list <[hidden email]> Subject: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude Dne 10. 02. 2014 11:08, piše Stéphane Ducasse: > Janko CAN YOU STOP! > > "blatantly unethical behavior” > Really > > Stef Stef, we are waiting to you. Will you tell us your part of the story about your GSoC 2010 act or shall I start by myself? Janko >> Phil, >> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, >> because it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, >> and in some cases blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board >> members. Which is certainly bad for our community on long term. >> Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a >> community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into >> murky waters more and more. >> >> Best regards >> Janko >> >> Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše [hidden email] >> <mailto:[hidden email]>: >>> Guys, >>> >>> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in >>> the kindergarten. >>> >>> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. >>> Backwards, there is a fair chance. >>> >>> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk. >>> >>> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to >>> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes). >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <[hidden email] >>> <mailto:[hidden email]> >>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Janko, >>> >>> I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 >>> extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave >>> up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). >>> So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate >>> last year BUT we were willing to spend it. >>> >>> Luc >>> >>> >>> 2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email] >>> <mailto:[hidden email]> >>> <mailto:[hidden email]>>: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be >>> blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and >>> misguided. >>> >>> Facts namely are: >>> >>> 1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] >>> while >>> ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any >>> report >>> back to GSoC mentors, >>> >>> 2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the >>> pool for >>> paying extra projects [2][3]. >>> >>> Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is: >>> >>> Income: GSoC 2012 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> GSoC 2013 13x 500 = 6.500 USD >>> ------------------------------ >>> 13.000 USD >>> >>> Expenses: >>> Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD >>> >>> Difference: + 4.000 USD >>> >>> If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't >>> loose any >>> money but gain 4.000 USD. >>> >>> Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to >>> apologize to >>> you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin! >>> >>> Janko >>> >>> [1] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg >>> [2] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8 >>> [3] >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw >>> >>> >>> Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> ------------ >>>> FACTS >>>> >>>> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer. >>>> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC >>>> projects in 2013. >>>> >>>> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted >>> by Google. >>>> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and >>> Benjamin Arezki. >>>> >>>> All in all we paid: >>>> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular >>> GSOC) each >>>> projects >>>> - Serge trip to Mentor summit >>>> >>>> And we received 5552EUR from Google >>>> >>>> so yes we lost ~6582EUR >>>> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we >>>> sponsorized 3. >>>> >>>> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc >>> mentor >>>> summit because it participates to the fact that Google >>> recognizes ESUG >>>> ang gives slots the next year. >>>> >>>> It is alos important to note dates. >>>> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. >>>> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG. >>>> >>>> ------------ >>>> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY: >>>> >>>> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my >>> *own* time >>>> and it takes a lot! >>>> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all >>> falvors!) >>>> is a really great language that should be more widespread. >>>> >>>> I also completely open to discussions. >>>> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status. >>>> I can do errors too. >>>> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK! >>>> >>>> I cannot admit that: >>>> >>>> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly >>> directed >>>> against the treasurer so me. >>>> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I >>> hide or >>>> steal money make me think that I should better quit. >>>> >>>> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would >>> have done a >>>> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK >>> ME for >>>> DOING THIS BORING TASK! and then I can correct mistakes if any >>>> >>>> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started >>> yesterday and I >>>> am spending my week-end with my kids >>>> >>>> >>>> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude. >>>> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the >>> problems together >>>> if any. >>>> But I think it will never happen... >>>> >>>> #Luc >>>> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end >>> in bad mood -- Janko Mivšek Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
Hi Igor and all!
On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: [SNIP] > Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, > we even share the VM! > > And I am not sure people understand how important this has been > for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has > been done through Newspeakish money, right? > > > Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I > first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form > there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create > Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. > In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at > Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement > systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no > Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed > or reliable. > > I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community > will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is > definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep. > > > I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not > (clearly it is). > The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. > (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). > So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run > and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk > projects under ESUG umbrella? Well, first of all I was actually *not* talking about that particular incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a family *in general*. Gilad should really feel that IMHO. Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" - hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk! And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"? And the fact that Newspeak actually *shares the VM* with Pharo and Squeak - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually *claims* to be a Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit! Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :) > If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, > who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects. Hehe, ok, PHP is NOT a Smalltalk. ;) regards, Göran PS. I am hacking on protobuf in Pharo 3.0 and noticed cool NB assembler in some places - are such methods creeping into base libraries now? What does that mean for other CPUs? Sorry, for changing subject - feel free to reply under different subject. _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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On 11 February 2014 10:07, Göran Krampe <[hidden email]> wrote: But as to me it is clear example, where ESUG should draw a line.Hi Igor and all! Nothing philosophical here. Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new language. Different syntax, different semantics.The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any difference. There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
> > Nothing philosophical here. > Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new > language. > Different syntax, different semantics. > The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any > difference. > There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. > Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to > run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer. Paolo _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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+1
or would anybody seriously want to deny a Java/C#/Ruby/PHP/Cobol/youNameIt-to-Smalltalk converter written in Smalltalk from GSoC? Helge -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Esug-list [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Paolo Bonzini Gesendet: Dienstag, 11. Februar 2014 17:14 An: Igor Stasenko; Göran Krampe Cc: ESUG Mailing list; Pharo Development List; Squeak Betreff: [Esug-list] Smalltalk dialects and GSoC Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto: > > Nothing philosophical here. > Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new > language. > Different syntax, different semantics. > The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any > difference. > There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. > Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to > run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer. Paolo _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: Smalltalk dialects and GSoC
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In reply to this post by Paolo Bonzini-2
On 11.02.2014, at 17:14, Paolo Bonzini <[hidden email]> wrote: > Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto: >> >> Nothing philosophical here. >> Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new >> language. >> Different syntax, different semantics. >> The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any >> difference. >> There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. >> Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to >> run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? > > I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. > > If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer. > > Paolo - Bert - _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
smime.p7s (5K)
Re: Smalltalk dialects and GSoC
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Il 11/02/2014 17:53, Bert Freudenberg ha scritto:
>> I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. >> >> If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it >> in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use >> Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due >> to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to >> get into the program would be slimmer. > > How about a project for a new or extended Smalltalk VM? Written in > non-Smalltalk, but running a Smalltalk, e.g. Squeak? Of course, everything must be considered on a case-by-case basis. There is no hard and fast rule. With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more porting potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the same opportunity. Paolo _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: Smalltalk dialects and GSoC
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On 11 February 2014 18:08, Paolo Bonzini <[hidden email]> wrote: Il 11/02/2014 17:53, Bert Freudenberg ha scritto: Right. I didn't said it's easy to correctly/perfectly draw a line. But you have to draw it.. and once you did, you will always have chances to find someone left aboard and screaming about bias and blatantly unethical behavior, instead of peacefully discussing and providing arguments. With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more porting potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the same opportunity. No, i think any Smalltalk VM is clearly a good topic to run under ESUG umbrella.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: Smalltalk dialects and GSoC
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Il 11/02/2014 18:29, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
> > Right. I didn't said it's easy to correctly/perfectly draw a line. But > you have to draw it.. and once you did, you will always have chances to > find someone left aboard and screaming about bias and blatantly > unethical behavior, instead of peacefully discussing and providing > arguments. > > > With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU > organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more > porting potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the > same opportunity. > > No, i think any Smalltalk VM is clearly a good topic to run under ESUG > umbrella. Exactly---that would be *my* choice as GNU Smalltalk maintainer. Other Smalltalk VMs are definitely welcome. Paolo _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: Smalltalk dialects and GSoC
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In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
On 2/11/2014 6:29 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> > I didn't said it's easy to correctly/perfectly draw a line. But you > have to draw it Hi Igor, I want to draw your attention to the fact that this is black-and-white thinking. We don't need that in a dynamic environment, we can postpone the decision of where that line is till way after we start running the code. We can implement it in the debugger if an exception is risen and ignore it if no exception is risen. We can even decide to not implement it all and merely tweak the values of variables in the debugger each and every every time we see an UHE, no line needed at all then... :-) Reinout ------- _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: [squeak-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Hi all, I was trying to keep aways from the discussion but now I am directly involved as the "co-admin" of GSoC 2010. First, Janko, I don't see at all your point here. Whether it was true or not, making this PUBLIC and NOW does not make sense. It only makes clear the only thing you want to do is to bash Stef. So it is clearly something personal.
Second...I will tell you what I remember. I do remember Stef suggesting/complaining about Newspeak as well as other none-very-smalltalk-related projects (I don't remember which were the other). I remember Stef was not the only one, but most of the mentors agreed to the same. And in fact, it made sense. WE wanted to use ESUG infrastructure. That means using its resources, its setup, its administrator, accountant, etc. Do you think all this setup comes from free? So....even if it was not the case, but imagine for a second that ESUG has certain thoughts about being used as the GSoC organization, then I think we should listen and discuss to get to an agreement. Otherwise, it is easy, use your own organization and that's all. I am NOT saying we should do what ESUG says.... I am just saying ESUG board opinions should be considered along with the community if ESUG wants to be used as Mentoring Organization. Same reason if we would like to use Newspeak for some Smalltalk-related projects.
Third, I never ever remember Stef "forcing" me to do that. I cannot remember more than a "recommendation". If there is something I did (I do not even remember), I did it myself.
But again... I really don't understand at all why this discussion now.... On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote: Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: [squeak-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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Il 11/02/2014 22:42, Mariano Martinez Peck ha scritto:
> > First, [...] > > Second, [...] > > Third, [...] Fourth, it was the first time that ESUG participated to the Summer of Code, and the first time that Janko and you were administrating it. Errare humanum est. Perseverare, autem, diabolicum... Paolo _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: [squeak-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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Except that I’m now the devil from the eyes of Gilad. Superb.
So the burn strategy of Janko worked perfectly. I do not know what he gained but we all lost. He seems to be a smart guy with which everybody wants to work with in the future. Michele also told me that: "you should not shit where you eat." and I think that this is an important point. > Fourth, it was the first time that ESUG participated to the Summer of Code, and the first time that Janko and you were administrating it. Errare humanum est. > > Perseverare, autem, diabolicum... > > Paolo > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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