Thoughts about Pharo GUI

> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] En
> nombre de stepken
> Enviado el: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 21:16
> Para: [hidden email]
> Asunto: [Pharo-project] Thoughts about Pharo GUI
>
> Hi!
>
> Connecting Pharo to SUN Lively Morphic GUI:
>
> http://research.sun.com/projects/lively/
>
> has lots of advantages:
>
>     * decoupling of GUI and steering engine in hardware, like X-Server
>       from X.org
>     * independance of hardware and OS.
>     * speed - drawing canvas in SVG is implemented in C, steeting in
>       JAVA-Script. Google Chrome engine V8 is a ActionScript Jitter
>       (http://llvm.org/) and even offers OpenGL as C-lib
> (Khronos) -> No
>       more plugin's into VM necessary for graphics, same with
>       vector-font libraries.
>     * comfort - You can develop your smalltalk software from
> everywhere,
>       e.g. pharo vm installed at a webhoster ... or local
> over loopback
>       interface.
>     * Lively and Squeak Morphic mental models fit perfectly, adaption
>       should be really easy. Dan Ingall being one of the designers of
>       Lively...
>     * Pharo's killer applications seaside and pier also are remote
>       applications, also using ActionScript and browser -> why not for
>       graphics, morphic and etoys?
>     * Chrome/FireFox tends to become the standard universal
>       visualisation and I/O toolkit for all OS, so why not being
>       lightyears ahead by consequently implementing the GUI
> in Chrome/FF?
>
> few disadvantages:
>
>     * sound, videostreaming, printing problematic, but easily
> solvable,
>       because FF/Chrome already have that features built in ;-)
>
> I'm a bit disappointed by the fact, that the squeak / pharo
> jitter still
> has not the expected performance impact. Elliot does a good work, but
> Frank Lesser with its DNG engine is showing actually, what is
> technically possible ...C-Speed for Smalltalk and ! Apple is
> behind LLVM
> and JAVA 6 is showing also, that C-Speed can be reached in full
> OO-Languages, see the "language shootout". By the way:
> ActionScript is a
> full OO-language, like Smalltalk.
>
> I really wondered, why not LLVM has become the standard
> jitter in Pharo.
> Power/ARM/Sparc/Intel ... processors are already supported!
>
> I think, any proprietary Jitter is a design fault ...
>
> just my 2 ct.
>
> Have fun, Guido Stepken
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

> Hi!
>
> Connecting Pharo to SUN Lively Morphic GUI:
>
> http://research.sun.com/projects/lively/
>
> has lots of advantages:
>
>    * decoupling of GUI and steering engine in hardware, like X-Server
>      from X.org
>    * independance of hardware and OS.
>    * speed - drawing canvas in SVG is implemented in C, steeting in
>      JAVA-Script. Google Chrome engine V8 is a ActionScript Jitter
>      (http://llvm.org/) and even offers OpenGL as C-lib (Khronos) -> No
>      more plugin's into VM necessary for graphics, same with
>      vector-font libraries.
>    * comfort - You can develop your smalltalk software from everywhere,
>      e.g. pharo vm installed at a webhoster ... or local over loopback
>      interface.
>    * Lively and Squeak Morphic mental models fit perfectly, adaption
>      should be really easy. Dan Ingall being one of the designers of
>      Lively...
>    * Pharo's killer applications seaside and pier also are remote
>      applications, also using ActionScript and browser -> why not for
>      graphics, morphic and etoys?
>    * Chrome/FireFox tends to become the standard universal
>      visualisation and I/O toolkit for all OS, so why not being
>      lightyears ahead by consequently implementing the GUI in Chrome/FF?
>
> few disadvantages:
>
>    * sound, videostreaming, printing problematic, but easily solvable,
>      because FF/Chrome already have that features built in ;-)
>
> I'm a bit disappointed by the fact, that the squeak / pharo jitter still
> has not the expected performance impact. Elliot does a good work, but
> Frank Lesser with its DNG engine is showing actually, what is
> technically possible ...C-Speed for Smalltalk and ! Apple is behind LLVM
> and JAVA 6 is showing also, that C-Speed can be reached in full
> OO-Languages, see the "language shootout". By the way: ActionScript is a
> full OO-language, like Smalltalk.
>
> I really wondered, why not LLVM has become the standard jitter in Pharo.
> Power/ARM/Sparc/Intel ... processors are already supported!

>
> I think, any proprietary Jitter is a design fault ...
>
> just my 2 ct.
>
> Have fun, Guido Stepken
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>

> 2009/5/7 stepken <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi!
>>
>> Connecting Pharo to SUN Lively Morphic GUI:
>>
>> http://research.sun.com/projects/lively/
>>
>> has lots of advantages:
>>
>>    * decoupling of GUI and steering engine in hardware, like X-Server
>>      from X.org
>>    * independance of hardware and OS.
>>    * speed - drawing canvas in SVG is implemented in C, steeting in
>>      JAVA-Script. Google Chrome engine V8 is a ActionScript Jitter
>>      (http://llvm.org/) and even offers OpenGL as C-lib (Khronos) -> No
>>      more plugin's into VM necessary for graphics, same with
>>      vector-font libraries.
>>    * comfort - You can develop your smalltalk software from everywhere,
>>      e.g. pharo vm installed at a webhoster ... or local over loopback
>>      interface.
>>    * Lively and Squeak Morphic mental models fit perfectly, adaption
>>      should be really easy. Dan Ingall being one of the designers of
>>      Lively...
>>    * Pharo's killer applications seaside and pier also are remote
>>      applications, also using ActionScript and browser -> why not for
>>      graphics, morphic and etoys?
>>    * Chrome/FireFox tends to become the standard universal
>>      visualisation and I/O toolkit for all OS, so why not being
>>      lightyears ahead by consequently implementing the GUI in Chrome/FF?
>>
>> few disadvantages:
>>
>>    * sound, videostreaming, printing problematic, but easily solvable,
>>      because FF/Chrome already have that features built in ;-)
>>
>> I'm a bit disappointed by the fact, that the squeak / pharo jitter still
>> has not the expected performance impact. Elliot does a good work, but
>> Frank Lesser with its DNG engine is showing actually, what is
>> technically possible ...C-Speed for Smalltalk and ! Apple is behind LLVM
>> and JAVA 6 is showing also, that C-Speed can be reached in full
>> OO-Languages, see the "language shootout". By the way: ActionScript is a
>> full OO-language, like Smalltalk.
>>
>> I really wondered, why not LLVM has become the standard jitter in Pharo.
>> Power/ARM/Sparc/Intel ... processors are already supported!
>
> I studied LLVM functionality some time ago. And i don't remember what
> exactly turns my nose off from it. Maybe because its too C-centric
> approach: they care much about Globals, Linkage, custom-defined data
> types, dynamic C code compilation which is totally have no use for
> smalltalk.
> I didn't found the ways how i could define own calling convention(s) ,
> other than cdecl. And to make smalltalk contexts efficient, IMO, you
> have to change it.
> From what i have seen, in examples like this
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/cfe-dev/2008-August/002670.html
>  .. LLVM is like a replacement of GCC compiler with mix of useful and
> not so enhancements (in terms of smalltalk VM needs). Not sure how
> this could help with making VM which could run smalltalk code - you're
> still need to write it from scratch.
>
> Mainly, what i would like to reuse from LLVM is native code generator.
> But again, from what i have seen, the code generator is focused to be
> a backend for C compiler only.
> That's only an impression, i could be wrong.
>
>>
>> I think, any proprietary Jitter is a design fault ...
>>
>> just my 2 ct.
>>
>> Have fun, Guido Stepken
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>

> Hi!
>
> Connecting Pharo to SUN Lively Morphic GUI:
>
> http://research.sun.com/projects/lively/
>
> has lots of advantages:
>
>    * decoupling of GUI and steering engine in hardware, like X-Server
>      from X.org
>    * independance of hardware and OS.
>    * speed - drawing canvas in SVG is implemented in C, steeting in
>      JAVA-Script. Google Chrome engine V8 is a ActionScript Jitter
>      (http://llvm.org/) and even offers OpenGL as C-lib (Khronos) ->  
> No
>      more plugin's into VM necessary for graphics, same with
>      vector-font libraries.
>    * comfort - You can develop your smalltalk software from  
> everywhere,
>      e.g. pharo vm installed at a webhoster ... or local over loopback
>      interface.
>    * Lively and Squeak Morphic mental models fit perfectly, adaption
>      should be really easy. Dan Ingall being one of the designers of
>      Lively...
>    * Pharo's killer applications seaside and pier also are remote
>      applications, also using ActionScript and browser -> why not for
>      graphics, morphic and etoys?
>    * Chrome/FireFox tends to become the standard universal
>      visualisation and I/O toolkit for all OS, so why not being
>      lightyears ahead by consequently implementing the GUI in Chrome/
> FF?
>
> few disadvantages:
>
>    * sound, videostreaming, printing problematic, but easily solvable,
>      because FF/Chrome already have that features built in ;-)
>
> I'm a bit disappointed by the fact, that the squeak / pharo jitter  
> still
> has not the expected performance impact. Elliot does a good work, but
> Frank Lesser with its DNG engine is showing actually, what is
> technically possible ...C-Speed for Smalltalk and ! Apple is behind  
> LLVM
> and JAVA 6 is showing also, that C-Speed can be reached in full
> OO-Languages, see the "language shootout". By the way: ActionScript  
> is a
> full OO-language, like Smalltalk.
>
> I really wondered, why not LLVM has become the standard jitter in  
> Pharo.
> Power/ARM/Sparc/Intel ... processors are already supported!
>
> I think, any proprietary Jitter is a design fault ...
>
> just my 2 ct.
>
> Have fun, Guido Stepken
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>