Unresponsive 1.4 image

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Unresponsive 1.4 image

Janko Mivšek
Hi guys,

Well, this bug is something you should finally find and solve ASAP,
because it certainly don't give a confidence to the Pharo for serious work.

So, I just have again an image unresponsive to keyboard and mouse input.
Built from latest 1.4 OneClick. If someone wants it for debugging, I'm
happy to send you the whole image.

Image became unresponsive after I started it again. Image was otherwise
snapshoted in background every hour. Is this maybe a reason?

Best regards
Janko



--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

philippeback
I have been experiencing such freezes as well.

Example: with a textmorph being resized through a corner down the bottom of the screen, there is a freeze.

Also with full screen I had a lock with a 1.3

I have no clue on how to diagnose. If there are pointers, I am ready to search.

I was thinking of running a VM under the debugger to check where things were going south .

It happens to be with a StackVM or a CogVM or a NBCogVM.

No crash but a freeze. Is there a way to instrument the loading process so that we can track what's failing?

I second you on the 'trustable' platform bit.

Phil

2012/4/20 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>
Hi guys,

Well, this bug is something you should finally find and solve ASAP,
because it certainly don't give a confidence to the Pharo for serious work.

So, I just have again an image unresponsive to keyboard and mouse input.
Built from latest 1.4 OneClick. If someone wants it for debugging, I'm
happy to send you the whole image.

Image became unresponsive after I started it again. Image was otherwise
snapshoted in background every hour. Is this maybe a reason?

Best regards
Janko



--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si




--
Philippe Back
"Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve"

Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: [hidden email] | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog:

High Octane SPRL
rue cour Boisacq 101
1301 Bierges

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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Camillo Bruni-3
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Janko,

Can you tell on which OS?

best
cami

On 2012-04-20, at 19:04, Janko Mivšek wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> Well, this bug is something you should finally find and solve ASAP,
> because it certainly don't give a confidence to the Pharo for serious work.
>
> So, I just have again an image unresponsive to keyboard and mouse input.
> Built from latest 1.4 OneClick. If someone wants it for debugging, I'm
> happy to send you the whole image.
>
> Image became unresponsive after I started it again. Image was otherwise
> snapshoted in background every hour. Is this maybe a reason?
>
> Best regards
> Janko
>
>
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> Aida/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
>


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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Janko Mivšek
Hi Cami, on Linux.

Dne 20. 04. 2012 19:32, piše Camillo Bruni:

> Hi Janko,
>
> Can you tell on which OS?
>
> best
> cami
>
> On 2012-04-20, at 19:04, Janko Mivšek wrote:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Well, this bug is something you should finally find and solve ASAP,
>> because it certainly don't give a confidence to the Pharo for serious work.
>>
>> So, I just have again an image unresponsive to keyboard and mouse input.
>> Built from latest 1.4 OneClick. If someone wants it for debugging, I'm
>> happy to send you the whole image.
>>
>> Image became unresponsive after I started it again. Image was otherwise
>> snapshoted in background every hour. Is this maybe a reason?
>>
>> Best regards
>> Janko
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Janko Mivšek
>> Aida/Web
>> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>> http://www.aidaweb.si
>>
>
>
>

--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek

On Apr 20, 2012, at 7:05 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> Well, this bug is something you should finally find and solve ASAP,
> because it certainly don't give a confidence to the Pharo for serious work.
>


Why do you start a bug report with a sentence like that? I am now very motivated. Very.

        Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de


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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

philippeback
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
On Win XP SP3

2012/4/20 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>
Hi Cami, on Linux.

Dne 20. 04. 2012 19:32, piše Camillo Bruni:
> Hi Janko,
>
> Can you tell on which OS?
>
> best
> cami
>
> On 2012-04-20, at 19:04, Janko Mivšek wrote:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Well, this bug is something you should finally find and solve ASAP,
>> because it certainly don't give a confidence to the Pharo for serious work.
>>
>> So, I just have again an image unresponsive to keyboard and mouse input.
>> Built from latest 1.4 OneClick. If someone wants it for debugging, I'm
>> happy to send you the whole image.
>>
>> Image became unresponsive after I started it again. Image was otherwise
>> snapshoted in background every hour. Is this maybe a reason?
>>
>> Best regards
>> Janko
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Janko Mivšek
>> Aida/Web
>> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>> http://www.aidaweb.si
>>
>
>
>

--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si




--
Philippe Back
"Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve"

Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: [hidden email] | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog:

High Octane SPRL
rue cour Boisacq 101
1301 Bierges

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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

philippeback
In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
Dont fish for us. Tell us how to.

2012/4/20 Marcus Denker <[hidden email]>

On Apr 20, 2012, at 7:05 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> Well, this bug is something you should finally find and solve ASAP,
> because it certainly don't give a confidence to the Pharo for serious work.
>


Why do you start a bug report with a sentence like that? I am now very motivated. Very.

       Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de





--
Philippe Back
"Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve"

Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: [hidden email] | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog:

High Octane SPRL
rue cour Boisacq 101
1301 Bierges

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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Sean P. DeNigris
Administrator
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
I just experienced a freeze when opening the history navigator list in Nautilus. Is there anything in your debug log, Janko? Here's the top part of mine:

MessageNotUnderstood: receiver of "fontIndexOf:" is nil
20 April 2012 1:42:37.065 pm

VM: Mac OS - intel - 1073 - CoInterpreter VMMaker-oscog-EstebanLorenzano.139 uuid: 5aa53979-d7d8-4ca3-91fe-cfc3b4109c33 Mar 28 2012, StackToRegisterMappingCogit VMMaker-oscog-EstebanLorenzano.139 uuid: 5aa53979-d7d8-4ca3-91fe-cfc3b4109c33 Mar 28 2012, https://git.gitorious.org/cogvm/blessed.git Commit: e2cad7fb37808cf449802e3e1f80979f0422165b Date: Wed Mar 21 18:02:28 2012 +0100 By: Camillo Bruni <camillobruni@gmail.com>
Image: Pharo1.4 [Latest update: #14438]

UndefinedObject(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #fontIndexOf:
        Receiver: nil
        Arguments and temporary variables:
                aMessage: fontIndexOf: a StrikeFont(Bitmap DejaVu Sans 9I 14)
                exception: MessageNotUnderstood: receiver of "fontIndexOf:" is nil
                resumeValue: nil
        Receiver's instance variables:
nil

StringMorphAttributeScanner>>initializeFromStringMorph:
        Receiver: a StringMorphAttributeScanner
        Arguments and temporary variables:
                aStringMorph: a GoBackStringMorph(990380032)'G: Work '
                style: nil
        Receiver's instance variables:
                fontNumber: 1
                textColor: nil
                emphasis: 2
                alignment: nil
                actualFont: a StrikeFont(Bitmap DejaVu Sans 9I 14)
                indent: 0
                kern: 0
Cheers,
Sean
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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Janko Mivšek
In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
Dne 20. 04. 2012 19:37, piše Marcus Denker:

>> Well, this bug is something you should finally find and solve ASAP,
>> because it certainly don't give a confidence to the Pharo for serious work.

> Why do you start a bug report with a sentence like that? I am now very motivated. Very.

Because it is true and because I'm angry. First because I need to
rebuild this image again and second, because this bug is there for years.

Best regards
Janko

--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

On Apr 20, 2012, at 7:47 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote:

> Dne 20. 04. 2012 19:37, piše Marcus Denker:
>
>>> Well, this bug is something you should finally find and solve ASAP,
>>> because it certainly don't give a confidence to the Pharo for serious work.
>
>> Why do you start a bug report with a sentence like that? I am now very motivated. Very.
>
> Because it is true and because I'm angry. First because I need to
> rebuild this image again and second, because this bug is there for years.
>
So it's not a 1.4 new bug?

        Marcus


--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de


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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Camillo Bruni-3
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
linux who ;)?

can you check if there is already a bug entry in the issue tracker?
if not:
- add one with a precise description on how you got the bug
- give the OS (at best with version number / issue)


best
cami

On 2012-04-20, at 19:36, Janko Mivšek wrote:

> Hi Cami, on Linux.
>
> Dne 20. 04. 2012 19:32, piše Camillo Bruni:
>> Hi Janko,
>>
>> Can you tell on which OS?
>>
>> best
>> cami
>>
>> On 2012-04-20, at 19:04, Janko Mivšek wrote:
>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> Well, this bug is something you should finally find and solve ASAP,
>>> because it certainly don't give a confidence to the Pharo for serious work.
>>>
>>> So, I just have again an image unresponsive to keyboard and mouse input.
>>> Built from latest 1.4 OneClick. If someone wants it for debugging, I'm
>>> happy to send you the whole image.
>>>
>>> Image became unresponsive after I started it again. Image was otherwise
>>> snapshoted in background every hour. Is this maybe a reason?
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Janko
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Janko Mivšek
>>> Aida/Web
>>> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>>> http://www.aidaweb.si
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> Aida/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
>


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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Janko Mivšek
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Hi guys,

Fortunately this error is reproducible:

  1. Pharo 1.4 OneClick
  2. rm any PharoDebug.log
  3. start image
  4. load Aida:

  Gofer new
    url: 'http://mc.aidaweb.si/Aida';
    package: 'ConfigurationOfAida';
    load.

  (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfAida) load.


  5. wait until Aida do a hourly snapshot at xx:00
  6. quit
  7. restart image

After Ctrl-C in command prompt there is no new PharoDebug.log.

I'm working on openSuse 12.1 (x86_64), kernel 3.1.9-1.4-desktop

Hope this helps a bit
Janko


Dne 20. 04. 2012 19:04, piše Janko Mivšek:

> Hi guys,
>
> Well, this bug is something you should finally find and solve ASAP,
> because it certainly don't give a confidence to the Pharo for serious work.
>
> So, I just have again an image unresponsive to keyboard and mouse input.
> Built from latest 1.4 OneClick. If someone wants it for debugging, I'm
> happy to send you the whole image.
>
> Image became unresponsive after I started it again. Image was otherwise
> snapshoted in background every hour. Is this maybe a reason?
>
> Best regards
> Janko
>
>
>

--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
on which os?

Stef

On Apr 20, 2012, at 7:47 PM, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:

> I just experienced a freeze when opening the history navigator list in
> Nautilus. Is there anything in your debug log, Janko? Here's the top part of
> mine:
>
> MessageNotUnderstood: receiver of "fontIndexOf:" is nil
> 20 April 2012 1:42:37.065 pm
>
> VM: Mac OS - intel - 1073 - CoInterpreter VMMaker-oscog-EstebanLorenzano.139
> uuid: 5aa53979-d7d8-4ca3-91fe-cfc3b4109c33 Mar 28 2012,
> StackToRegisterMappingCogit VMMaker-oscog-EstebanLorenzano.139 uuid:
> 5aa53979-d7d8-4ca3-91fe-cfc3b4109c33 Mar 28 2012,
> https://git.gitorious.org/cogvm/blessed.git Commit:
> e2cad7fb37808cf449802e3e1f80979f0422165b Date: Wed Mar 21 18:02:28 2012
> +0100 By: Camillo Bruni <[hidden email]>
> Image: Pharo1.4 [Latest update: #14438]
>
> UndefinedObject(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #fontIndexOf:
> Receiver: nil
> Arguments and temporary variables:
> aMessage: fontIndexOf: a StrikeFont(Bitmap DejaVu Sans 9I 14)
> exception: MessageNotUnderstood: receiver of "fontIndexOf:" is nil
> resumeValue: nil
> Receiver's instance variables:
> nil
>
> StringMorphAttributeScanner>>initializeFromStringMorph:
> Receiver: a StringMorphAttributeScanner
> Arguments and temporary variables:
> aStringMorph: a GoBackStringMorph(990380032)'G: Work '
> style: nil
> Receiver's instance variables:
> fontNumber: 1
> textColor: nil
> emphasis: 2
> alignment: nil
> actualFont: a StrikeFont(Bitmap DejaVu Sans 9I 14)
> indent: 0
> kern: 0
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Unresponsive-1-4-image-tp4574693p4574814.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>


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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Sean P. DeNigris
Administrator
Stéphane Ducasse wrote
on which os?
Mac Lion 10.7.3
Cheers,
Sean
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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Stéphane Ducasse
Ok may be nautilus bug. It should be different than janko problem.

Stef

On Apr 20, 2012, at 9:39 PM, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:

>
> Stéphane Ducasse wrote
>>
>> on which os?
>>
>
> Mac Lion 10.7.3
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Unresponsive-1-4-image-tp4574693p4575049.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>


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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Paul DeBruicker
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Janko Mivšek wrote
After Ctrl-C in command prompt there is no new PharoDebug.log.
 
Instead of Crtl-C do you get anything if you find the process and kill it with:

kill -s SIGUSR1 <pid>

?
(assuming you're using Cog )
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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

philippeback
To freeze 1.4 on Win XP SP3, you can try this one out:

| tm border |
tm := TextMorph new.
tm contentsWrapped: '';
extent: 100 @ 20.
"this is the important stuff"
(border := AlignmentMorph newRow) position: 200 @ 200;
borderWidth: 1;
borderColor: Color black;
hResizing: #shrinkWrap;
vResizing: #shrinkWrap;
addMorph: tm.
"this just makes the TextMorph easier =to see"
World addMorph: border.

Then fill in the TextMorph with some text and newlines.

Then call the halos and resize the right corner for a while, especially letting it go out of screen at the bottom.

The system will come unresponsive, not obey Cmd-. etc.

Sometimes it comes back to life but most of the time I've got to kill the process.

CogVM or StackVM make no difference.

Maybe there is a huge GC going on but there is no memory display thing (manuia) anymore in 1.4 so I can't tell.

Hope it helps.

Phil



2012/4/20 Paul DeBruicker <[hidden email]>

Janko Mivšek wrote
>
>
> After Ctrl-C in command prompt there is no new PharoDebug.log.
>
>
>

Instead of Crtl-C do you get anything if you find the process and kill it
with:

kill -s SIGUSR1 <pid>

?
(assuming you're using Cog )

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Unresponsive-1-4-image-tp4574693p4575089.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.




--
Philippe Back
"Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve"

Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: [hidden email] | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog:

High Octane SPRL
rue cour Boisacq 101
1301 Bierges

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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Janko Mivšek
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Hi guys,

It seems that writing to Transcript from background process causes my
freeze after restart. And yes, I have Transcript window open.

This is a code snippet in question:

AIDASite class>>imageSnapshot
  ...
  elapsed := Time millisecondsToRun:
     [SmalltalkImage current saveSession].
  Transcript show: ' in ', (elapsed // 1000) printString, 's '.


If I comment out the last line, snapshot doesn't block the image after
restart.

This is not necessary 1.4 specific problem, because I noticed similar
problem in 1.3 also. Just that on 1.3 input freezes immediately while on
1.4 it freezes after restart.

Let me investigate a bit further, what if Transcript window is not open?

Best regards
Janko



Dne 20. 04. 2012 21:42, piše Stéphane Ducasse:

> Ok may be nautilus bug. It should be different than janko problem.
>
> Stef
>
> On Apr 20, 2012, at 9:39 PM, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
>
>>
>> Stéphane Ducasse wrote
>>>
>>> on which os?
>>>
>>
>> Mac Lion 10.7.3
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Unresponsive-1-4-image-tp4574693p4575049.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>
>
>

--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Igor Stasenko
So, this is related to thread-safe transcript code..
which using semaphore to synchronize access to transcript stream.
I guess what happens is that a semaphore is blocked in another
process, but for some strange reason never released. This leads to
situation, that any other process which will attempt to write to
transcript will be blocked as well.. forever.

2012/4/21 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>:

> Hi guys,
>
> It seems that writing to Transcript from background process causes my
> freeze after restart. And yes, I have Transcript window open.
>
> This is a code snippet in question:
>
> AIDASite class>>imageSnapshot
>  ...
>  elapsed := Time millisecondsToRun:
>     [SmalltalkImage current saveSession].
>  Transcript show: ' in ', (elapsed // 1000) printString, 's '.
>
>
> If I comment out the last line, snapshot doesn't block the image after
> restart.
>
> This is not necessary 1.4 specific problem, because I noticed similar
> problem in 1.3 also. Just that on 1.3 input freezes immediately while on
> 1.4 it freezes after restart.
>
> Let me investigate a bit further, what if Transcript window is not open?
>
> Best regards
> Janko
>
>
>
> Dne 20. 04. 2012 21:42, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
>> Ok may be nautilus bug. It should be different than janko problem.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> On Apr 20, 2012, at 9:39 PM, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Stéphane Ducasse wrote
>>>>
>>>> on which os?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mac Lion 10.7.3
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Unresponsive-1-4-image-tp4574693p4575049.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> Aida/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

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Re: Unresponsive 1.4 image

Janko Mivšek
Hi guys,

This code reproduces the blockade in fresh 1.4 OneClick (with or without
Transcript window open):

        [
          (Delay forSeconds: 5) wait.
          SmalltalkImage current saveSession.
        ] forkAt: Processor userBackgroundPriority

Note that fork on default priority does not block while on user
background priority it blocks. It does not always block immediately
(sometimes yes sometimes not) but it after image restart it is always
blocked.

But if you periodically write to Transcript from process on user
background priority, it does not block, even if you heavily browse
around, write to transcript, do manual snapshot:

        [ [true] whileTrue:
            [(Delay forMilliseconds: 500) wait.
            Transcript show: '.tst.']
        ] forkAt: Processor userBackgroundPriority

So, it seems not only thread-safe Transcript but something with snapshot
(from a background priority, why?) is in play here.

SmalltalkImage>>snapshot:andQuit: , shouldn’t run it on highest priority
to block all other processes during the preparation for snapshot?

Hope this helps a bit more
Janko



Dne 21. 04. 2012 11:48, piše Igor Stasenko:
> So, this is related to thread-safe transcript code..
> which using semaphore to synchronize access to transcript stream.
> I guess what happens is that a semaphore is blocked in another
> process, but for some strange reason never released. This leads to
> situation, that any other process which will attempt to write to
> transcript will be blocked as well.. forever.

Why is input not blocked immediately but after image restart?


More investigation:


1. correction: image blocks in any case after restart, regardless if
there is additional writing to Transcript or not. Snapshot namely writes
to Transcript by itself and this is enough to block.

1. even if Transcript is closed the image blocks after restart

This simulated snapshot from the background does NOT block after restart:

        [
          (Delay forSeconds: 5) wait.
          SmalltalkImage current saveSession.
        ] fork

This one also not:

        [ | elapsed |
          (Delay forSeconds: 5) wait.
          elapsed := Time millisecondsToRun:
            [SmalltalkImage current saveSession].
          Transcript show: ' in ', (elapsed // 1000) printString, 's '.
        ] forkAt: Processor userBackgroundPriority






>
> 2012/4/21 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> It seems that writing to Transcript from background process causes my
>> freeze after restart. And yes, I have Transcript window open.
>>
>> This is a code snippet in question:
>>
>> AIDASite class>>imageSnapshot
>>  ...
>>  elapsed := Time millisecondsToRun:
>>     [SmalltalkImage current saveSession].
>>  Transcript show: ' in ', (elapsed // 1000) printString, 's '.
>>
>>
>> If I comment out the last line, snapshot doesn't block the image after
>> restart.
>>
>> This is not necessary 1.4 specific problem, because I noticed similar
>> problem in 1.3 also. Just that on 1.3 input freezes immediately while on
>> 1.4 it freezes after restart.
>>
>> Let me investigate a bit further, what if Transcript window is not open?
>>
>> Best regards
>> Janko
>>
>>
>>
>> Dne 20. 04. 2012 21:42, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
>>> Ok may be nautilus bug. It should be different than janko problem.
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>> On Apr 20, 2012, at 9:39 PM, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stéphane Ducasse wrote
>>>>>
>>>>> on which os?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mac Lion 10.7.3
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Unresponsive-1-4-image-tp4574693p4575049.html
>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Janko Mivšek
>> Aida/Web
>> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>> http://www.aidaweb.si
>>
>
>
>

--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

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