Using traits in Squeak / Seaside - Advice sought

> 2007/9/14, itsme213 <[hidden email]>:
>  
>> I will be doing some development in Squeak 3.9 / Seaside (I have played with
>> Squeak before, this time it will be RealWork). I like the idea of using
>> traits, but have no actual hand-on usage experience.
>>
>> Should I use traits in my work?
>>    
>
> What is your work?
>
>  
>> Know of any real deployed projects that have used traits to good effect?
>>    
>
> Only on a very small base, 2 or 3 traits.
>
>  
>> Do the tools manage the cost of all the finer-grained bits, debugging, etc?
>>    
>
> Debugging is not a problem. The problem is that the code browser and
> Monticello are only 80% there, RB is not trait aware, ....
>
>  
>> Are there any best practices I could look at?
>> Will using traits affect (a) possible port to VW? (b) possible use of
>> Gemstone/S?
>>    
>
> You mean because they don't support traits? Yes of course. But you can
> always flatten the traits. Then you'll "only" have to deal with the
> real portability problems which are big enough.
>
> Cheers
> Philippe
>
>  
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
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>>    
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>  

> >> Should I use traits in my work?
> >
> > What is your work?
>
> A tool for software architects, in which I think I see several places where
> trait-like structuring could be useful.
>
> >> Know of any real deployed projects that have used traits to good effect?
> >
> > Only on a very small base, 2 or 3 traits.
>
> That is quite useful to know, though I was hoping otherwise.
>
> >> Do the tools manage the cost of all the finer-grained bits, debugging,
> >> etc?
> >
> > Debugging is not a problem. The problem is that the code browser and
> > Monticello are only 80% there, RB is not trait aware, ....
>
> Ah, also most useful to know. I wanted to use traits more than build up the
> tooling for it.
>
> >> Will using traits affect (a) possible port to VW? (b) possible use of
> >> Gemstone/S?
> >
> > You mean because they don't support traits? Yes of course.
>
> All in all sounds like it may not be quite ready yet. Thank you very much
> for the input..

>
> On Sep 15, 2007, at 08:29 , Philippe Marschall wrote:
> >
> > Besides the tool issues there are other issues as well. There is
> > somewhere a bug in ClassBuilder and every trait in the image ends up
> > with each user twice.
>
> That's wrong. New traits don't have multiple users. There are
> existing traits in the image that have multiple users. They must have
> got there during the 3.9 process. How that happened has not been
> found out (as Philippe noted, its potentially a bug in the
> ClassBuilder). As said earlier, rehashing those sets gets rid of the
> duplicates.
>
> > Also copy class doesn't work correctly for
> > traits.
>
> The problem here is that also methods from traits are copied, but
> like the bug above, its not a show stopper.
>
> > It's likely that there are more bugs like this.
>
> Right, but we woun't find them if we wait using traits.

> In my
> oppinion, the implementation of traits is stable enough for real use.
> I mean, part of the Squeak kernel is implemented with traits...
> Rather a limiting factor is UI support. Although various pleople have
> been working traits aware tools and extensions, there is missing a
> coherent and maintained package.
>
> Adrian
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> 2007/9/17, Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On Sep 15, 2007, at 08:29 , Philippe Marschall wrote:
>>>
>>> Besides the tool issues there are other issues as well. There is
>>> somewhere a bug in ClassBuilder and every trait in the image ends up
>>> with each user twice.
>>
>> That's wrong. New traits don't have multiple users. There are
>> existing traits in the image that have multiple users. They must have
>> got there during the 3.9 process. How that happened has not been
>> found out (as Philippe noted, its potentially a bug in the
>> ClassBuilder). As said earlier, rehashing those sets gets rid of the
>> duplicates.
>>
>>> Also copy class doesn't work correctly for
>>> traits.
>>
>> The problem here is that also methods from traits are copied, but
>> like the bug above, its not a show stopper.
>>
>>> It's likely that there are more bugs like this.
>>
>> Right, but we woun't find them if we wait using traits.
>
> It's just the question whether you want to be the one who spots them
> in your production project and wait for a fix.
>
> Philippe
>
>> In my
>> oppinion, the implementation of traits is stable enough for real use.
>> I mean, part of the Squeak kernel is implemented with traits...
>> Rather a limiting factor is UI support. Although various pleople have
>> been working traits aware tools and extensions, there is missing a
>> coherent and maintained package.
>>
>> Adrian
>> _______________________________________________
>> Seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>>
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