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VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

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jtuchel

VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

Dear VAST community,

it is probably too early to sing a song of a new world, but it seems like the introduction of devices like the PineTab and the Pinebook Pro (http://pine64.org) look promising. We'll probably soon see a new family of tablets coming our way, based on ARM and Linux (and/or *BSD). At least I personally hope so, giving us a chance to break free from Google, Apple and Samsung and use "full" and free operating systems on fast and cheap hardware. The first reviews of the PineBook Pro are surprising when it comes to performance and build quality of the PineBook Pro, especially given its price of ±200USD...

I cannot present a business case, but I imagine it would be super cool to run VAST applications on these devices. Not only for fun, but also in settings like mobile workforce (sales, technical support, data collection (inventory, surveys, contract signing etc.)). Combined with the fact that VAST now runs on ARM processors in principle (Rapsberry PI, Rock64 etc.), I begin to fantasize.... BUT: this could be our chance to catch up on the lost mobile battle (imagine writing a Linux App and deploying on such a device rather than battling the SDKs for Android and iOS with all the restrictions and technical hurdles in place).

So I'd like to hear opinions, ideas, facts about whether VAST would run on, say, Manjaro ARM, Arch Linux, postmarketOS, Maemo, KDE Plasma on such devices, if there is a need for support for these. I guess this also again contributes to the discussion on VAST's GUI toolset (motif) and so on.

So first: would we users see a business case here?

Second: how far is the way from running on Raspberry PI to running on a PineTab from a technical perspective?

I look forward to reading your opinions and input on this topic.

Joachim

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Louis LaBrunda

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

Hi Joachim,

I haven't worked with VA Smalltalk on the Raspberry for awhile (personal reasons) and may not get back to it for awhile longer. When I was working on a program for the Raspberry Pi Zero W ($10), I was worried about its availability. If that hasn't changed, it would be nice if VA Smalltalk programs (not necessarily the development environment) could run on very inexpensive little computers that are easily available. Maybe the group can make some suggestions and we can work toward choosing one and getting something going.

Lou

On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 2:19:24 AM UTC-5, Joachim Tuchel wrote:

Dear VAST community,

it is probably too early to sing a song of a new world, but it seems like the introduction of devices like the PineTab and the Pinebook Pro (<a href="http://pine64.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;">http://pine64.org) look promising. We'll probably soon see a new family of tablets coming our way, based on ARM and Linux (and/or *BSD). At least I personally hope so, giving us a chance to break free from Google, Apple and Samsung and use "full" and free operating systems on fast and cheap hardware. The first reviews of the PineBook Pro are surprising when it comes to performance and build quality of the PineBook Pro, especially given its price of ±200USD...

I cannot present a business case, but I imagine it would be super cool to run VAST applications on these devices. Not only for fun, but also in settings like mobile workforce (sales, technical support, data collection (inventory, surveys, contract signing etc.)). Combined with the fact that VAST now runs on ARM processors in principle (Rapsberry PI, Rock64 etc.), I begin to fantasize.... BUT: this could be our chance to catch up on the lost mobile battle (imagine writing a Linux App and deploying on such a device rather than battling the SDKs for Android and iOS with all the restrictions and technical hurdles in place).

So I'd like to hear opinions, ideas, facts about whether VAST would run on, say, Manjaro ARM, Arch Linux, postmarketOS, Maemo, KDE Plasma on such devices, if there is a need for support for these. I guess this also again contributes to the discussion on VAST's GUI toolset (motif) and so on.

So first: would we users see a business case here?
Second: how far is the way from running on Raspberry PI to running on a PineTab from a technical perspective?

I look forward to reading your opinions and input on this topic.

Joachim

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Marten Feldtmann-5

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

In reply to this post by jtuchel

Alternatives to the PI have always been there ... but even though some of the other hardware has more RAM (etc), more speed ... most or all of the alternatives have problems with their software ... especially with their X server support. The UI stuff is working, but way to slow.

The PI group did a pretty good job with their software.

And of course the next generation is somewhere around the house: The RISC V system and I assume, that they will be the future ... especially due to the fact, that China is pretty behind it ...

Marten

Am Donnerstag, 16. Januar 2020 08:19:24 UTC+1 schrieb Joachim Tuchel:

Dear VAST community,

it is probably too early to sing a song of a new world, but it seems like the introduction of devices like the PineTab and the Pinebook Pro (<a href="http://pine64.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;">http://pine64.org) look promising. We'll probably soon see a new family of tablets coming our way, based on ARM and Linux (and/or *BSD). At least I personally hope so, giving us a chance to break free from Google, Apple and Samsung and use "full" and free operating systems on fast and cheap hardware. The first reviews of the PineBook Pro are surprising when it comes to performance and build quality of the PineBook Pro, especially given its price of ±200USD...

I cannot present a business case, but I imagine it would be super cool to run VAST applications on these devices. Not only for fun, but also in settings like mobile workforce (sales, technical support, data collection (inventory, surveys, contract signing etc.)). Combined with the fact that VAST now runs on ARM processors in principle (Rapsberry PI, Rock64 etc.), I begin to fantasize.... BUT: this could be our chance to catch up on the lost mobile battle (imagine writing a Linux App and deploying on such a device rather than battling the SDKs for Android and iOS with all the restrictions and technical hurdles in place).

So I'd like to hear opinions, ideas, facts about whether VAST would run on, say, Manjaro ARM, Arch Linux, postmarketOS, Maemo, KDE Plasma on such devices, if there is a need for support for these. I guess this also again contributes to the discussion on VAST's GUI toolset (motif) and so on.

So first: would we users see a business case here?
Second: how far is the way from running on Raspberry PI to running on a PineTab from a technical perspective?

I look forward to reading your opinions and input on this topic.

Joachim

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Richard Sargent

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

Administrator

In reply to this post by jtuchel

On Wednesday, January 15, 2020 at 11:19:24 PM UTC-8, Joachim Tuchel wrote:

Dear VAST community,

it is probably too early to sing a song of a new world, but it seems like the introduction of devices like the PineTab and the Pinebook Pro (<a href="http://pine64.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;">http://pine64.org) look promising. We'll probably soon see a new family of tablets coming our way, based on ARM and Linux (and/or *BSD). At least I personally hope so, giving us a chance to break free from Google, Apple and Samsung and use "full" and free operating systems on fast and cheap hardware. The first reviews of the PineBook Pro are surprising when it comes to performance and build quality of the PineBook Pro, especially given its price of ±200USD...

I cannot present a business case, but I imagine it would be super cool to run VAST applications on these devices. Not only for fun, but also in settings like mobile workforce (sales, technical support, data collection (inventory, surveys, contract signing etc.)). Combined with the fact that VAST now runs on ARM processors in principle (Rapsberry PI, Rock64 etc.), I begin to fantasize.... BUT: this could be our chance to catch up on the lost mobile battle (imagine writing a Linux App and deploying on such a device rather than battling the SDKs for Android and iOS with all the restrictions and technical hurdles in place).

So I'd like to hear opinions, ideas, facts about whether VAST would run on, say, Manjaro ARM, Arch Linux, postmarketOS, Maemo, KDE Plasma on such devices, if there is a need for support for these. I guess this also again contributes to the discussion on VAST's GUI toolset (motif) and so on.

So first: would we users see a business case here?
Second: how far is the way from running on Raspberry PI to running on a PineTab from a technical perspective?

I look forward to reading your opinions and input on this topic.

These are good questions, Joachim. From the perspective of a vendor, each new platform carries substantial costs to support it. Obviously, I can't speak for Instantiations, but I do hope they can.

Joachim

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jtuchel

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

In reply to this post by Louis LaBrunda

Lou,

so far, all I read about the PineBook Pro seems to indicate it provides very nice performance and power. It runs standard distros like Manjaro,debian, Arch etc., but in an ARM variant.

So I assume it is not as limited as the Pi Zero W, but rather powerful. I am always surprised at how little power VAST applications need on an Intel/AMD Liniux machine compared to other systems. So I guess this is not so much a question of available boom in the box of the Pine offerings. It's more like "is there a market for VAST on such devices"?

Joachim

Am Freitag, 17. Januar 2020 20:06:47 UTC+1 schrieb Louis LaBrunda:

Hi Joachim,

I haven't worked with VA Smalltalk on the Raspberry for awhile (personal reasons) and may not get back to it for awhile longer. When I was working on a program for the Raspberry Pi Zero W ($10), I was worried about its availability. If that hasn't changed, it would be nice if VA Smalltalk programs (not necessarily the development environment) could run on very inexpensive little computers that are easily available. Maybe the group can make some suggestions and we can work toward choosing one and getting something going.

Lou

On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 2:19:24 AM UTC-5, Joachim Tuchel wrote:
Dear VAST community,

it is probably too early to sing a song of a new world, but it seems like the introduction of devices like the PineTab and the Pinebook Pro (<a href="http://pine64.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;">http://pine64.org) look promising. We'll probably soon see a new family of tablets coming our way, based on ARM and Linux (and/or *BSD). At least I personally hope so, giving us a chance to break free from Google, Apple and Samsung and use "full" and free operating systems on fast and cheap hardware. The first reviews of the PineBook Pro are surprising when it comes to performance and build quality of the PineBook Pro, especially given its price of ±200USD...

I cannot present a business case, but I imagine it would be super cool to run VAST applications on these devices. Not only for fun, but also in settings like mobile workforce (sales, technical support, data collection (inventory, surveys, contract signing etc.)). Combined with the fact that VAST now runs on ARM processors in principle (Rapsberry PI, Rock64 etc.), I begin to fantasize.... BUT: this could be our chance to catch up on the lost mobile battle (imagine writing a Linux App and deploying on such a device rather than battling the SDKs for Android and iOS with all the restrictions and technical hurdles in place).

So I'd like to hear opinions, ideas, facts about whether VAST would run on, say, Manjaro ARM, Arch Linux, postmarketOS, Maemo, KDE Plasma on such devices, if there is a need for support for these. I guess this also again contributes to the discussion on VAST's GUI toolset (motif) and so on.

So first: would we users see a business case here?
Second: how far is the way from running on Raspberry PI to running on a PineTab from a technical perspective?

I look forward to reading your opinions and input on this topic.

Joachim

--
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jtuchel

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

In reply to this post by Richard Sargent

That's why I ask.

Maybe I am seeing oppotunities because *I* would like to play with VAST on such devices, but nobody else would, especially at the price point of VAST...

In my very naive thinking, there is not too much of a difference in providing support on an ARM based Linux as compared to an x64 one, once you've made sure the VM works (which seems to be proven already with the PI version).

So I'm trying to "collect" optinions on whether a PineTab could be attractive for VAST customers who might need a mobile component in their offerings. I personally would prefer a PineTab over a PineBook for myself, because there are cheap Laptops on the market which run Linux quite nicely. But Tablet with a "standard" Linux on it sounds like a dream to me. You can couple it with a BT mouse/keyboard or just use it as a tablet. And it is a full-blown Linux machine, no Android, no iOS, just a normal operating system which you can deploy to.... Would possibly solve a few very hard problems like the mudlitplatform question for iOS and Android. Gone. Boom!

I guess you get the picture.

Joachim

Am Freitag, 17. Januar 2020 22:37:53 UTC+1 schrieb Richard Sargent:

On Wednesday, January 15, 2020 at 11:19:24 PM UTC-8, Joachim Tuchel wrote:
Dear VAST community,

it is probably too early to sing a song of a new world, but it seems like the introduction of devices like the PineTab and the Pinebook Pro (<a href="http://pine64.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;">http://pine64.org) look promising. We'll probably soon see a new family of tablets coming our way, based on ARM and Linux (and/or *BSD). At least I personally hope so, giving us a chance to break free from Google, Apple and Samsung and use "full" and free operating systems on fast and cheap hardware. The first reviews of the PineBook Pro are surprising when it comes to performance and build quality of the PineBook Pro, especially given its price of ±200USD...

I cannot present a business case, but I imagine it would be super cool to run VAST applications on these devices. Not only for fun, but also in settings like mobile workforce (sales, technical support, data collection (inventory, surveys, contract signing etc.)). Combined with the fact that VAST now runs on ARM processors in principle (Rapsberry PI, Rock64 etc.), I begin to fantasize.... BUT: this could be our chance to catch up on the lost mobile battle (imagine writing a Linux App and deploying on such a device rather than battling the SDKs for Android and iOS with all the restrictions and technical hurdles in place).

So I'd like to hear opinions, ideas, facts about whether VAST would run on, say, Manjaro ARM, Arch Linux, postmarketOS, Maemo, KDE Plasma on such devices, if there is a need for support for these. I guess this also again contributes to the discussion on VAST's GUI toolset (motif) and so on.

So first: would we users see a business case here?
Second: how far is the way from running on Raspberry PI to running on a PineTab from a technical perspective?

I look forward to reading your opinions and input on this topic.

These are good questions, Joachim. From the perspective of a vendor, each new platform carries substantial costs to support it. Obviously, I can't speak for Instantiations, but I do hope they can.
.

Joachim

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jtuchel

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

In reply to this post by Marten Feldtmann-5

Yes, RISC-V will be an interesting new kid on the block. It might be "too different" as a target platform for VAST.

The machines from Pine will, imo, be door-openers to a whole family of machines based on ARM and Linux. It runs more or less "normal" software, just compiled for the ARM processors. There already is a big selection of Linux packages you can run on top of them. VAST would possibly be a great addition to that family.

But maybe I am just too enthusiastic here. I am not sure.

Joachim

Am Freitag, 17. Januar 2020 22:03:05 UTC+1 schrieb Marten Feldtmann:

Alternatives to the PI have always been there ... but even though some of the other hardware has more RAM (etc), more speed ... most or all of the alternatives have problems with their software ... especially with their X server support. The UI stuff is working, but way to slow.

The PI group did a pretty good job with their software.

And of course the next generation is somewhere around the house: The RISC V system and I assume, that they will be the future ... especially due to the fact, that China is pretty behind it ...

Marten

Am Donnerstag, 16. Januar 2020 08:19:24 UTC+1 schrieb Joachim Tuchel:
Dear VAST community,

it is probably too early to sing a song of a new world, but it seems like the introduction of devices like the PineTab and the Pinebook Pro (<a href="http://pine64.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;">http://pine64.org) look promising. We'll probably soon see a new family of tablets coming our way, based on ARM and Linux (and/or *BSD). At least I personally hope so, giving us a chance to break free from Google, Apple and Samsung and use "full" and free operating systems on fast and cheap hardware. The first reviews of the PineBook Pro are surprising when it comes to performance and build quality of the PineBook Pro, especially given its price of ±200USD...

I cannot present a business case, but I imagine it would be super cool to run VAST applications on these devices. Not only for fun, but also in settings like mobile workforce (sales, technical support, data collection (inventory, surveys, contract signing etc.)). Combined with the fact that VAST now runs on ARM processors in principle (Rapsberry PI, Rock64 etc.), I begin to fantasize.... BUT: this could be our chance to catch up on the lost mobile battle (imagine writing a Linux App and deploying on such a device rather than battling the SDKs for Android and iOS with all the restrictions and technical hurdles in place).

So I'd like to hear opinions, ideas, facts about whether VAST would run on, say, Manjaro ARM, Arch Linux, postmarketOS, Maemo, KDE Plasma on such devices, if there is a need for support for these. I guess this also again contributes to the discussion on VAST's GUI toolset (motif) and so on.

So first: would we users see a business case here?
Second: how far is the way from running on Raspberry PI to running on a PineTab from a technical perspective?

I look forward to reading your opinions and input on this topic.

Joachim

--
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Louis LaBrunda

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

In reply to this post by jtuchel

Hi Joachim,

Okay, so you are interested in building GUI programs for the PineBook or PineTab, I think that is good. I'm interested in the IoTs as it seems Mariano and others at Instantiations are. I'm hi-jacking your post to encourage them to pick a platform (hardware and OS) to run IoTs devices like controllers on. I don't care what hardware as long as it is inexpensive and has some input/output pins. I don't care what OS. I would like them to supply an SD card image (or similar memory image) with the OS and all executable files needed to run a VA Smalltalk program that I could add or copy a VA Smalltalk image to. One could then copy the result to a memory card, plug it into the little computer and have a running system.

Before I got sidetracked by family issues, I was able to get a couple of headless/VA Smalltalk/Seaside programs running on the Pi Zero W. Seaside allowed access from the internet for settings and other control functions. The rest of the power of VA Smalltalk does whatever one wants to do.

I don't want to have to deal with versions/distributions of the OS. I don't want to have to deal with .SO and other files moving and their names changing. It would be good if the OS was reasonably up to date with features but it doesn't need to change very often and it certainly doesn't need to be bleeding edge.

Lou

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 7:57:05 AM UTC-5, Joachim Tuchel wrote:

Lou,

so far, all I read about the PineBook Pro seems to indicate it provides very nice performance and power. It runs standard distros like Manjaro,debian, Arch etc., but in an ARM variant.
So I assume it is not as limited as the Pi Zero W, but rather powerful. I am always surprised at how little power VAST applications need on an Intel/AMD Liniux machine compared to other systems. So I guess this is not so much a question of available boom in the box of the Pine offerings. It's more like "is there a market for VAST on such devices"?

Joachim

Am Freitag, 17. Januar 2020 20:06:47 UTC+1 schrieb Louis LaBrunda:
Hi Joachim,

I haven't worked with VA Smalltalk on the Raspberry for awhile (personal reasons) and may not get back to it for awhile longer. When I was working on a program for the Raspberry Pi Zero W ($10), I was worried about its availability. If that hasn't changed, it would be nice if VA Smalltalk programs (not necessarily the development environment) could run on very inexpensive little computers that are easily available. Maybe the group can make some suggestions and we can work toward choosing one and getting something going.

Lou

On Thursday, January 16, 2020 at 2:19:24 AM UTC-5, Joachim Tuchel wrote:
Dear VAST community,

it is probably too early to sing a song of a new world, but it seems like the introduction of devices like the PineTab and the Pinebook Pro (<a href="http://pine64.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;">http://pine64.org) look promising. We'll probably soon see a new family of tablets coming our way, based on ARM and Linux (and/or *BSD). At least I personally hope so, giving us a chance to break free from Google, Apple and Samsung and use "full" and free operating systems on fast and cheap hardware. The first reviews of the PineBook Pro are surprising when it comes to performance and build quality of the PineBook Pro, especially given its price of ±200USD...

I cannot present a business case, but I imagine it would be super cool to run VAST applications on these devices. Not only for fun, but also in settings like mobile workforce (sales, technical support, data collection (inventory, surveys, contract signing etc.)). Combined with the fact that VAST now runs on ARM processors in principle (Rapsberry PI, Rock64 etc.), I begin to fantasize.... BUT: this could be our chance to catch up on the lost mobile battle (imagine writing a Linux App and deploying on such a device rather than battling the SDKs for Android and iOS with all the restrictions and technical hurdles in place).

So I'd like to hear opinions, ideas, facts about whether VAST would run on, say, Manjaro ARM, Arch Linux, postmarketOS, Maemo, KDE Plasma on such devices, if there is a need for support for these. I guess this also again contributes to the discussion on VAST's GUI toolset (motif) and so on.

So first: would we users see a business case here?
Second: how far is the way from running on Raspberry PI to running on a PineTab from a technical perspective?

I look forward to reading your opinions and input on this topic.

Joachim

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Mariano Martinez Peck-2

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

In reply to this post by jtuchel

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 4:19 AM Joachim Tuchel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear VAST community,

it is probably too early to sing a song of a new world, but it seems like the introduction of devices like the PineTab and the Pinebook Pro (http://pine64.org) look promising. We'll probably soon see a new family of tablets coming our way, based on ARM and Linux (and/or *BSD). At least I personally hope so, giving us a chance to break free from Google, Apple and Samsung and use "full" and free operating systems on fast and cheap hardware. The first reviews of the PineBook Pro are surprising when it comes to performance and build quality of the PineBook Pro, especially given its price of ±200USD...

Totally agree. I have been following this company since quite some time and everything they plan looks super promising and what they already did is awesome (at least the Rock64 / Pine64 that I could try myself).

I cannot present a business case, but I imagine it would be super cool to run VAST applications on these devices. Not only for fun, but also in settings like mobile workforce (sales, technical support, data collection (inventory, surveys, contract signing etc.)). Combined with the fact that VAST now runs on ARM processors in principle (Rapsberry PI, Rock64 etc.), I begin to fantasize.... BUT: this could be our chance to catch up on the lost mobile battle (imagine writing a Linux App and deploying on such a device rather than battling the SDKs for Android and iOS with all the restrictions and technical hurdles in place).

So I'd like to hear opinions, ideas, facts about whether VAST would run on, say, Manjaro ARM, Arch Linux, postmarketOS, Maemo, KDE Plasma on such devices, if there is a need for support for these. I guess this also again contributes to the discussion on VAST's GUI toolset (motif) and so on.

In general, to just run the VM on ARM on those OS shouldn't be too hard. The only real dependency of VAST VM is `libc`, which is likely to be present in most of them. For the GUI, obviously, we have a long road to go. The other main issue is "event" processing. You know, when you go mobile you need to listen for events like touch, scroll, and all those kinds of things...so "just running" on the OS is not enough if you really want to make a GUI. And that is a huge effort. See for example the event loop VM of Pharo for Android: http://forum.world.st/Android-VM-Status-td4771209.html I don't know what's the status about it but I suspect it might be abandoned. Same happens if you want to be performant. It takes time to have a JIT working for ARMv6, ARMv7, ARMv8 etc... Important enough to close it: http://forum.world.st/Taking-ARMv8-development-closed-source-td5107936.html

Mariano Martinez Peck
Software Engineer, Instantiations Inc.

Email: [hidden email]

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Mariano Martinez Peck-2

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

In reply to this post by Louis LaBrunda

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 4:06 PM Louis LaBrunda <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Joachim,

I haven't worked with VA Smalltalk on the Raspberry for awhile (personal reasons) and may not get back to it for awhile longer. When I was working on a program for the Raspberry Pi Zero W ($10), I was worried about its availability. If that hasn't changed, it would be nice if VA Smalltalk programs (not necessarily the development environment) could run on very inexpensive little computers that are easily available. Maybe the group can make some suggestions and we can work toward choosing one and getting something going.

Hi Louis,

What do you exactly mean by "I was worried about its availability" because I don't get it, sorry.

Mariano Martinez Peck
Software Engineer, Instantiations Inc.

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Mariano Martinez Peck-2

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

In reply to this post by jtuchel

On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 10:03 AM Joachim Tuchel <[hidden email]> wrote:

That's why I ask.
Maybe I am seeing oppotunities because *I* would like to play with VAST on such devices, but nobody else would, especially at the price point of VAST...
In my very naive thinking, there is not too much of a difference in providing support on an ARM based Linux as compared to an x64 one, once you've made sure the VM works (which seems to be proven already with the PI version).

So I'm trying to "collect" optinions on whether a PineTab could be attractive for VAST customers who might need a mobile component in their offerings. I personally would prefer a PineTab over a PineBook for myself, because there are cheap Laptops on the market which run Linux quite nicely. But Tablet with a "standard" Linux on it sounds like a dream to me. You can couple it with a BT mouse/keyboard or just use it as a tablet. And it is a full-blown Linux machine, no Android, no iOS, just a normal operating system which you can deploy to.... Would possibly solve a few very hard problems like the mudlitplatform question for iOS and Android. Gone. Boom!
I guess you get the picture.

It's certainly a possibility. But I'm not sure I would bet on it. I think VAST performance and stability is quite good for ARM at this point. However, having a good native event-supporting GUI for a mobile/tablet is a huge effort. Sure, you can always run a local web server that renders a GUI that looks similar to the native but most customers are already used to native GUIs...

On the other hand, where I see a lot of potential is mostly on IoT and Edge computing. Most of those cases may not need a GUI yet VAST could be a great choice.

Mariano Martinez Peck
Software Engineer, Instantiations Inc.

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Louis LaBrunda

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck-2

Hi Mariano,

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 11:10:21 AM UTC-5, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 4:06 PM Louis LaBrunda <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="9k943Z7fCgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">L...@...> wrote:
Hi Joachim,

I haven't worked with VA Smalltalk on the Raspberry for awhile (personal reasons) and may not get back to it for awhile longer. When I was working on a program for the Raspberry Pi Zero W ($10), I was worried about its availability. If that hasn't changed, it would be nice if VA Smalltalk programs (not necessarily the development environment) could run on very inexpensive little computers that are easily available. Maybe the group can make some suggestions and we can work toward choosing one and getting something going.

Hi Louis,
What do you exactly mean by "I was worried about its availability" because I don't get it, sorry.

I haven't looked lately but at the time if one wanted to sell a product Raspberry Pi Zero W (or any of them) it seemed it would be difficult to buy a bunch of them, set them up with one's software and sell them as a finished product. Sure an individual could buy a few but more than that could be a problem.

Lou

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Mariano Martinez Peck-2

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 4:06 PM Louis LaBrunda <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Joachim,

I haven't worked with VA Smalltalk on the Raspberry for awhile (personal reasons) and may not get back to it for awhile longer. When I was working on a program for the Raspberry Pi Zero W ($10), I was worried about its availability. If that hasn't changed, it would be nice if VA Smalltalk programs (not necessarily the development environment) could run on very inexpensive little computers that are easily available. Maybe the group can make some suggestions and we can work toward choosing one and getting something going.

Hi Louis,
What do you exactly mean by "I was worried about its availability" because I don't get it, sorry.

I haven't looked lately but at the time if one wanted to sell a product Raspberry Pi Zero W (or any of them) it seemed it would be difficult to buy a bunch of them, set them up with one's software and sell them as a finished product. Sure an individual could buy a few but more than that could be a problem.

Thanks for the clarification. I think that is not an issue anymore. There are some tools that allow you to build your own Pi image from scratch...imagine like some bash script that you can pre-define and then have a tool that prepares everything. One is called PiBakery, but I am sure there more out there: https://www.pibakery.org/

There are also some companies doing custom hardware / SoB computers...you can create a prototype, make them build a few and then also go with a more massive production.

There is also plenty of software now to deploy, monitor, upgrade etc the software on many IoT boards together...

All in all, I don't see that particular as an issue (at least these days).

Best regards,

Mariano Martinez Peck
Software Engineer, Instantiations Inc.

Email: [hidden email]

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MartinezPeck

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/mariano-martinez-peck

Blog: https://marianopeck.wordpress.com/

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jtuchel

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck-2

Mariano,

my understanding of these ARM devices was that these don't require to go event-driven.

Maybe I am completely mistaken here? If I am, these machines are much less interesting than I thought... Maybe I'll have to simply get one and experiment with it.

I thought the fact that you can run Gimp, Krita, LibreOffice and most of what's available on x86 machines means that they are just "normal PCs" running ARM, and not so much "special cases of mobile phones". To me it seemed obvious that this is just a PI-like PC in a tablet's packaging.

Let me ask diferently (because I am not too deep into that techie stuff): Does this all mean that running VAST on a PI means a lot more power consumption than other software on a PI? Because that is what all this event-driven VM stuff is about on ARM, right?

Joachim

Am Montag, 20. Januar 2020 17:08:35 UTC+1 schrieb Mariano Martinez Peck:

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 4:19 AM Joachim Tuchel <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="7e77OIbfCgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">jtu...@...> wrote:
Dear VAST community,

it is probably too early to sing a song of a new world, but it seems like the introduction of devices like the PineTab and the Pinebook Pro (<a href="http://pine64.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpine64.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFXO8ju8Cd37odeP-kLIyhklsFvOQ';return true;">http://pine64.org) look promising. We'll probably soon see a new family of tablets coming our way, based on ARM and Linux (and/or *BSD). At least I personally hope so, giving us a chance to break free from Google, Apple and Samsung and use "full" and free operating systems on fast and cheap hardware. The first reviews of the PineBook Pro are surprising when it comes to performance and build quality of the PineBook Pro, especially given its price of ±200USD...

Totally agree. I have been following this company since quite some time and everything they plan looks super promising and what they already did is awesome (at least the Rock64 / Pine64 that I could try myself).

I cannot present a business case, but I imagine it would be super cool to run VAST applications on these devices. Not only for fun, but also in settings like mobile workforce (sales, technical support, data collection (inventory, surveys, contract signing etc.)). Combined with the fact that VAST now runs on ARM processors in principle (Rapsberry PI, Rock64 etc.), I begin to fantasize.... BUT: this could be our chance to catch up on the lost mobile battle (imagine writing a Linux App and deploying on such a device rather than battling the SDKs for Android and iOS with all the restrictions and technical hurdles in place).

So I'd like to hear opinions, ideas, facts about whether VAST would run on, say, Manjaro ARM, Arch Linux, postmarketOS, Maemo, KDE Plasma on such devices, if there is a need for support for these. I guess this also again contributes to the discussion on VAST's GUI toolset (motif) and so on.

In general, to just run the VM on ARM on those OS shouldn't be too hard. The only real dependency of VAST VM is `libc`, which is likely to be present in most of them. For the GUI, obviously, we have a long road to go. The other main issue is "event" processing. You know, when you go mobile you need to listen for events like touch, scroll, and all those kinds of things...so "just running" on the OS is not enough if you really want to make a GUI. And that is a huge effort. See for example the event loop VM of Pharo for Android: <a href="http://forum.world.st/Android-VM-Status-td4771209.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2FAndroid-VM-Status-td4771209.html\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNH-0CzUPflLHd-0t6boUpm-ebpNSQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2FAndroid-VM-Status-td4771209.html\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNH-0CzUPflLHd-0t6boUpm-ebpNSQ';return true;">http://forum.world.st/Android-VM-Status-td4771209.html I don't know what's the status about it but I suspect it might be abandoned. Same happens if you want to be performant. It takes time to have a JIT working for ARMv6, ARMv7, ARMv8 etc... Important enough to close it: <a href="http://forum.world.st/Taking-ARMv8-development-closed-source-td5107936.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2FTaking-ARMv8-development-closed-source-td5107936.html\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNH8cVXY1efTSGgJzDfMMV4xLhMYYQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2FTaking-ARMv8-development-closed-source-td5107936.html\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNH8cVXY1efTSGgJzDfMMV4xLhMYYQ';return true;">http://forum.world.st/Taking-ARMv8-development-closed-source-td5107936.html

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Mariano Martinez Peck-2

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:01 AM Joachim Tuchel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Mariano,

my understanding of these ARM devices was that these don't require to go event-driven.
Maybe I am completely mistaken here? If I am, these machines are much less interesting than I thought... Maybe I'll have to simply get one and experiment with it.
I thought the fact that you can run Gimp, Krita, LibreOffice and most of what's available on x86 machines means that they are just "normal PCs" running ARM, and not so much "special cases of mobile phones". To me it seemed obvious that this is just a PI-like PC in a tablet's packaging.

Let me ask diferently (because I am not too deep into that techie stuff): Does this all mean that running VAST on a PI means a lot more power consumption than other software on a PI? Because that is what all this event-driven VM stuff is about on ARM, right?

Hi Joachim,

Maybe I am mistaken here hahaha. In my mind, I was still thinking on "Android" kind of OS... So yeah, running on those standard Linux distros is probably much easier.

You are right: power consumption is one of the reasons why going with an event-driven VM.

I don't know exactly the power consumption of VAST on ARM compared to other high level languages. But when idle, CPU was < 1%. You can also tune things a bit (like increasing the Delay interrupt time). Also, an ARM JIT compiler helps a lot in this regard too.

Forgetting about the event-driven VM and still considering using a Linux distro like the mentioned, how would you handle "mobile" or "tablet" kind of events? Imagine all those gestures/actions you can do with your fingers. I guess first the OS should support those and then somehow VAST VM should be able to handle those too. That's the part it's not clear to me.

But...having said that, it still looks like a very interesting experiment to carry on and analyze.

Best,

Mariano Martinez Peck
Software Engineer, Instantiations Inc.

Email: [hidden email]

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MartinezPeck

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/mariano-martinez-peck

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Seth Berman

Re: VASt and PineTab, PineBook Pro etc.

Hi All,

There is a lot here I'm trying to parse through, though I admit I just skimmed these.
However, I'll just give my perspective on the VAST platform general positioning with regards to ARM and RISC-V.

As we are discovering right in our own backyard (in Raleigh, NC), there is a lot of interest in the capabilities of the platform from a business perspective.
Not only are we finding that companies and folks are more receptive than we theorized, but we are doing exactly what we said we would do

in my speech at ESUG...which is to push Smalltalk out beyond our traditional bubbles.

Admittedly, the enterprise space is the playing field of interest for us. I find they are more receptive to the value of a "services company" because they work at scale

and know how quickly costs for themselves can spin out of control when they don't have a guaranteed support channel to back up the code they are getting.
As I've seen at least twice this year, even one "incident" for these companies can cost them far more to resolve then anything they would pay us on

an annual basis. We had a case where we worked support in conjunction with another supporting company (a massive, yet I'll kindly keep unnamed one) that took three

months just to get the customer to the correct support level engineer. The amount of money lost I'm betting was...well...a lot. And I know the support level

costs of the other company and it was many times more than what we charge which is a double-hit. This is mostly an educational issue and sometimes requires

companies get burned before they understand this. In the meantime we will just keep providing anecdotal evidence.

Given this is the space of interest, we are seeing opportunities for the VAST platform and our services in the IoT and edge-computing enterprise space.
Even for our own customers who may think this doesn't concern them...look at Amazon AWS 64-bit ARM EC2 instances.
Our 64-bit ARM offering is going to allow our customers to take advantage of running on those types of platforms and I'm sure will optimize costs in the future as that market solidifies.

The VAST platform can run on any number of edge devices and offers a great program model.

Companies here in the Research Triangle in Raleigh are interested in our debugging and cross-platform development techniques and capabilities. We continue to

be sponsors of RIoT (Raleigh IoT community), and work through them to form new relationships and get our message out.

So there is no shortage of business cases in this area.

We have run Vast on ARM for awhile and it runs really well. Someone noted to us that it takes a little bit more power than python, but not much. And this is fine, because
we have not done any power optimizations yet. There is some work going on in the background here to make sure the ARM vm is optimized and ready to be

productized and supported by us.

There was mention of RISC-V. To be honest, the vm can be placed on just about anything that has some flavor of Linux and a C compiler.
RISC-V just doesn't have wide-spread device support for experimentation yet. Once it has something pretty

simple to just go get (like a Raspberry Pi), I'm sure one of us will get it and put VAST on there in a number of hours just like ARM.
Until then, we are in no rush...there is enough forward movement and momentum going on at the company without it.

There was some mention of X. That is not our primary concern at the moment in this space...most of what we are looking to do is headless.
We are thinking more background processing of business logic, AI-integration, web server integration. Perhaps a front-end smart device running a

Vast UI would be great, but I would agree that we wouldn't want our current UI framework for such a task. We will see...if I see enough interest in that

area that will result in a new revenue stream then I would be all to happy to do a complete replacement of the framework. But we don't see it as a current

showstopper in this space.

Concerning the Pine devices...there doesn't seem to be anything stopping Vast from running on it so enjoy:)

Hope this is useful information for folks.

- Seth

On Tuesday, January 21, 2020 at 6:33:05 AM UTC-5, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:01 AM Joachim Tuchel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Mariano,

my understanding of these ARM devices was that these don't require to go event-driven.
Maybe I am completely mistaken here? If I am, these machines are much less interesting than I thought... Maybe I'll have to simply get one and experiment with it.
I thought the fact that you can run Gimp, Krita, LibreOffice and most of what's available on x86 machines means that they are just "normal PCs" running ARM, and not so much "special cases of mobile phones". To me it seemed obvious that this is just a PI-like PC in a tablet's packaging.

Let me ask diferently (because I am not too deep into that techie stuff): Does this all mean that running VAST on a PI means a lot more power consumption than other software on a PI? Because that is what all this event-driven VM stuff is about on ARM, right?

Hi Joachim,

Maybe I am mistaken here hahaha. In my mind, I was still thinking on "Android" kind of OS... So yeah, running on those standard Linux distros is probably much easier.
You are right: power consumption is one of the reasons why going with an event-driven VM.
I don't know exactly the power consumption of VAST on ARM compared to other high level languages. But when idle, CPU was < 1%. You can also tune things a bit (like increasing the Delay interrupt time). Also, an ARM JIT compiler helps a lot in this regard too.
Forgetting about the event-driven VM and still considering using a Linux distro like the mentioned, how would you handle "mobile" or "tablet" kind of events? Imagine all those gestures/actions you can do with your fingers. I guess first the OS should support those and then somehow VAST VM should be able to handle those too. That's the part it's not clear to me.

But...having said that, it still looks like a very interesting experiment to carry on and analyze.

Best,

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Mariano Martinez Peck
Software Engineer, Instantiations Inc.
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