VM compatibility

From: Mark Pirogovsky [mailto:[hidden email]]
> If memory serves me right there might be potential problem
> with running 7.4 image on the 7.5 VM.  IT was some discussion
> a while ago on how UI events are handled between VM and VI
> and at some point the changes were made to VM  of the VW7.5,
> so some of the event handling was moved up from the VM to VI...

Interesting. That could explain some oddities we see: Process Monitor
opening but not displaying anything until clicked, dialog windows
staying open after programmatic close until clicked, maybe even some of
the missing invalidates.

Presumably the change you are referring to is this, which was introduced
in the 7.4c VM in August 2006:

50990 Moving low-level event dispatch from the VM up into the VI

Since 7.4c and 7.4d are recommended for all 7.4.1 and earlier images, it
would be good to know if there is some VI change needed to accomodate
this AR.
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/CincomSmalltalkWiki/VisualWorks+7.4d+engi
nes

Can anyone from Cincom check out the image-level diffs for AR50990, or
the vw-dev build lulu aug06.2 where this was introduced?

Cheers,
Steve

Steve,
that subject was discussed on the list then and I did get an impression
from somebody at cincom that, to use newer VM one has to modify the  the
Image in some way, albeit it was not said what should be changed in the VI.

What bothers me now, is a conspicuous lack of any postings from the
Cincom people;  not only to this question but also one I asked about VM
flavors. I wonder is it they just too busy,it is not fun to answer some
type of questions, or maybe nobody knows ....

--Mark

Steven Kelly wrote:

In general, if you want a question reliably answered, contact support. Cincom people do answer questions here sometimes, but it's by no means guaranteed, not necessarily timely, and very much as time permits.

(I don't know the answer offhand, and don't feel like I have time to go find out at the moment :-)

At 09:26 AM 2/21/2008, Mark Pirogovsky wrote:

Steve,
that subject was discussed on the list then and I did get an impression from somebody at cincom that, to use newer VM one has to modify the  the Image in some way, albeit it was not said what should be changed in the VI.

What bothers me now, is a conspicuous lack of any postings from the Cincom people;  not only to this question but also one I asked about VM flavors. I wonder is it they just too busy,it is not fun to answer some type of questions, or maybe nobody knows ....

--Mark

Steven Kelly wrote:

From: Mark Pirogovsky [[hidden email]]

If memory serves me right there might be potential problem with running 7.4 image on the 7.5 VM.  IT was some discussion a while ago on how UI events are handled between VM and VI and at some point the changes were made to VM  of the VW7.5,
so some of the event handling was moved up from the VM to VI...

Interesting. That could explain some oddities we see: Process Monitor
opening but not displaying anything until clicked, dialog windows
staying open after programmatic close until clicked, maybe even some of
the missing invalidates.
Presumably the change you are referring to is this, which was introduced
in the 7.4c VM in August 2006:
50990   Moving low-level event dispatch from the VM up into the VI
Since 7.4c and 7.4d are recommended for all 7.4.1 and earlier images, it
would be good to know if there is some VI change needed to accomodate
this AR.
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/CincomSmalltalkWiki/VisualWorks+7.4d+engi
nes
Can anyone from Cincom check out the image-level diffs for AR50990, or
the vw-dev build lulu aug06.2 where this was introduced?
Cheers,
Steve

Mark Pirogovsky wrote:
> What bothers me now, is a conspicuous lack of any postings from the
> Cincom people;  not only to this question but also one I asked about VM
> flavors. I wonder is it they just too busy,it is not fun to answer some
> type of questions, or maybe nobody knows ....

... or whoever did read the question didn't have the answer easily available and didn't feel free to drop what they're supposed to work on and research the issue. Note also that not everyone on the development team reads vwnc all the time. The guaranteed way to get a response from Cincom is to ask support. If I get a question through support, it's part of my job to respond.

Martin

I suggested from my experiment that the 7.6 vm would run an older image
and I do know of some image changes I did in regards to font selection
(ie choosing stuff out of the font book) that I did for 7.6 I smoke
tested a 7.4.1 image and said "give it a try, but I cannot guarantee the
results".

I do suggest porting to 7.6 as then any issues arising are supported
ones. So if you just  *had to* run the new engine with the older image
it appears to work in the time I was working with it. Doing such a thing
to a production application entails some amount of risk. So if you are
just wanting to run you dev or nc image that is older until 7.6 is on
gold go for it if for you the risk is acceptable.

I had no time to further research other changes since this week alone I
am dealing with 3 issues from support and other calls related to support
issues. So Alan and Martin are correct.

If you are a customer and want answers Cincom has a support line. The
case then will get more attention and research from the engineering
team.

7.6 is more reliable and I am researching at the moment and issue some
one brought up to see if I can reproduce it.

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Kobetic [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 7:41 AM
To: Mark Pirogovsky
Cc: vwnc-list
Subject: Re: VM compatibility

Mark Pirogovsky wrote:
> What bothers me now, is a conspicuous lack of any postings from the
> Cincom people;  not only to this question but also one I asked about
VM
> flavors. I wonder is it they just too busy,it is not fun to answer
some
> type of questions, or maybe nobody knows ....

... or whoever did read the question didn't have the answer easily
available and didn't feel free to drop what they're supposed to work on
and research the issue. Note also that not everyone on the development
team reads vwnc all the time. The guaranteed way to get a response from
Cincom is to ask support. If I get a question through support, it's part
of my job to respond.

Martin

Thanks Mark, that hint was enough for me to find the discussion. I hope
nobody minds if I break the letter of the law on vw-dev protocol in this
case by copying the answer from Georg Heeg, when Travis Griggs asked
about this change:

Wiki/VisualWorks+7.4d+en
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Thanks Mark, that hint was enough for me to find the discussion. I hope
nobody minds if I break the letter of the law on vw-dev protocol in this
case by copying the answer from Georg Heeg, when Travis Griggs asked
about this change (AR50990):
[oops, finger slipped on to the Send shortcut when I tried to paste.
Divine retribution?]

-----
For different purposes, mainly related to native Widgets, a direct
control of operating system events is needed. The first application of
this feature is ObjectStudio 8 where no event may be processed when
another event is still processing.

Given the two implementation technologies C(++) and Smalltalk, we
decided for the latter. Thus it is possible now to configure the VM to
send a message to Smalltalk to handle the events whenever there are
events available, the Smalltalk code then can run the event loop (or
not).

In Lulu Aug06.2 [and hence 7.4c and 7.4d] you just find the VM part of
this. The Smalltalk part which contains the EventHandler hierarchy is
handled in the ObjectStudio8 in a bundle  called VisualWorks
enhancements, so far.
-----

So there should be no problems from this change when using 7.4d VM in a
7.4 or 7.4.1 image. Any problems we see are caused by something else -
do not adjust your set :-).

Thanks everybody for the help in clearing this up,
Steve

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-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Knight [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 21. helmikuuta 2008 16:32
To: Mark Pirogovsky; Steven Kelly
Cc: vwnc-list
Subject: Re: VM compatibility

In general, if you want a question reliably answered, contact support. Cincom people do answer questions here sometimes, but it's by no means guaranteed, not necessarily timely, and very much as time permits.

(I don't know the answer offhand, and don't feel like I have time to go find out at the moment :-)

At 09:26 AM 2/21/2008, Mark Pirogovsky wrote:

Steve,
that subject was discussed on the list then and I did get an impression from somebody at cincom that, to use newer VM one has to modify the  the Image in some way, albeit it was not said what should be changed in the VI.

What bothers me now, is a conspicuous lack of any postings from the Cincom people;  not only to this question but also one I asked about VM flavors. I wonder is it they just too busy,it is not fun to answer some type of questions, or maybe nobody knows ....

--Mark

Steven Kelly wrote:

From: Mark Pirogovsky [[hidden email]]

If memory serves me right there might be potential problem with running 7.4 image on the 7.5 VM.  IT was some discussion a while ago on how UI events are handled between VM and VI and at some point the changes were made to VM  of the VW7.5,
so some of the event handling was moved up from the VM to VI...

Interesting. That could explain some oddities we see: Process Monitor
opening but not displaying anything until clicked, dialog windows
staying open after programmatic close until clicked, maybe even some of
the missing invalidates.
Presumably the change you are referring to is this, which was introduced
in the 7.4c VM in August 2006:
50990   Moving low-level event dispatch from the VM up into the VI
Since 7.4c and 7.4d are recommended for all 7.4.1 and earlier images, it
would be good to know if there is some VI change needed to accomodate
this AR.
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/CincomSmalltalkWiki/VisualWorks+7.4d+engi
nes
Can anyone from Cincom check out the image-level diffs for AR50990, or
the vw-dev build lulu aug06.2 where this was introduced?
Cheers,
Steve

--

Alan Knight [|], Cincom Smalltalk Development

[hidden email]

[hidden email]

http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk

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Steve, you are too kind!

As I cooled off, I realized (too late as usually) that my response to Mark was unnecessarily stern. I completely understand that in this day and age it is quickly becoming the norm to have a public forum where you can fully expect to receive prompt answers "straight from the source", and it is the lack of such forum that is off. I won't go into reasons and justifications here, however valid they may be, you've heard them all many times already. But I want to say that I personally think that it is you guys who are cutting us a big slack in many respects. We are all doing what we can because we still believe in this technology and still enjoy using it (most of the time :-). So, to be fair, I don't think that we deserve more thanks than many others on this forum, especially people like yourself and Mark who often pitch in and answer questions as well. And, in the spirit of our cherished order [|], I certainly prefer vwnc as a table that is round rather than a table with two side
s :-).

Thanks.

Martin

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