VW - PostgreSQL question
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Re: VW - PostgreSQL question
 
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RE: VW - PostgreSQL question
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In reply to this post by Mark Pirogovsky-3
Can I maintain a large missing-critical GemStone database on a daily basis?
Probably. Do I *want* to maintain a large missing-critical GemStone database on a daily basis? Probably not. Chances are, I'd hate spending my time worrying about backups, tranlogs, space reclamation, performance optimization, replication, mirroring, security and migration to new versions. That's not what I like to do. I like to develop software, not maintain the environment, that's DBA's job if you ask me, not developer's, so where would I find a GemStone DBA to do that for me today? Also, I'm pretty sure even at the same level of qualifications GemStone DBA would command a much higher salary than a MSSQL DBA, which is another not-so-hidden part of the cost of ownership. Like I said, I don't want to sound as being too pro-SQL, but the fact of the matter is that I've switched from using GemStone to MSSQL about a year ago and know both sides of the coin fairly well. Lets see if we can get something going at STS. Cheers! -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: Charles A. Monteiro [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:38 AM To: Boris Popov; Sattler, Thomas (IT); Mark Pirogovsky; vwnc-list Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: VW - PostgreSQL question well apparently BOFs don't get scheduled :) i.e. there are spontaneous but I definitely would be up for a Gemstone BOF as well as the VW Packaging BOF. I guess there will be some sort of sign up on some bulleting board. and ... I ... cannot but ... help ... myself pls one can't compare what one needs to do to be an Oracle DBA as compared to a Gemstone DBA. I know I basically was my own DBA at a client site and an effective one at that, granted for the test "region" but I shall defer to the BOF :) -Charles On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 11:22:55 -0400, Boris Popov <[hidden email]> wrote: > .. must .. resist .. getting .. involved .. > > There are *many* more aspects to owning a DB aside from the initial > investment, and DBA is only one of them. We have trouble finding > Smalltalk > developers for hire as it is, I can only imagine what the response would > be > if we had tried to find an experienced GemStone DBA today :) Like I said > before, I absolutely love GemStone and enjoyed my time working with it > and > would love to discuss this in detail, but doing it on the mailing list > may > not be the most effective way to go as things could quickly get out of > control. Is there a GemStone BOF scheduled at STS'06? > > Cheers! > > -Boris > -- Charles A. Monteiro |
smime.p7s (4K)
Re: VW - PostgreSQL question
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RE: VW - PostgreSQL question
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In reply to this post by Mark Pirogovsky-3
If this was comp.lang.smalltalk and you didn't have your fire retardant
suite on, I'd feel sorry for you :) Cheers! -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: Charles A. Monteiro [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:00 AM To: Boris Popov; Sattler, Thomas (IT); Mark Pirogovsky; vwnc-list Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: VW - PostgreSQL question do what companies like FPL did in the "old days" , train somebody. See you in STS and of course, Norm and Monty :) -Charles On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 11:49:24 -0400, Boris Popov <[hidden email]> wrote: > Can I maintain a large missing-critical GemStone database on a daily > basis? > Probably. Do I *want* to maintain a large missing-critical GemStone > database > on a daily basis? Probably not. Chances are, I'd hate spending my time > worrying about backups, tranlogs, space reclamation, performance > optimization, replication, mirroring, security and migration to new > versions. That's not what I like to do. I like to develop software, not > maintain the environment, that's DBA's job if you ask me, not > developer's, > so where would I find a GemStone DBA to do that for me today? Also, I'm > pretty sure even at the same level of qualifications GemStone DBA would > command a much higher salary than a MSSQL DBA, which is another > not-so-hidden part of the cost of ownership. Like I said, I don't want to > sound as being too pro-SQL, but the fact of the matter is that I've > switched > from using GemStone to MSSQL about a year ago and know both sides of the > coin fairly well. Lets see if we can get something going at STS. > > Cheers! > > -Boris > -- Charles A. Monteiro |
Re: VW - PostgreSQL question
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In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)
I don't know the tasks of a Gemstone DBA or MS SQL DBA, but as a part
time Oracle DBA (kind of) i know a bit of these tasks. And for sure i know them well enough [i really like features like flashback (even a simple 'select ... as of ... ' is quite nice sometimes), online backup and recovery with rman (some database files are corrupt/hard disk crashed/server crashed because there was some test of the power generator??), ... ] to tell you that this should not be discussed on this list. Please use email or meet at STS and discuss there. Volker Boris Popov wrote: > Can I maintain a large missing-critical GemStone database on a daily basis? > Probably. Do I *want* to maintain a large missing-critical GemStone database > on a daily basis? Probably not. Chances are, I'd hate spending my time > worrying about backups, tranlogs, space reclamation, performance > optimization, replication, mirroring, security and migration to new > versions. That's not what I like to do. I like to develop software, not > maintain the environment, that's DBA's job if you ask me, not developer's, > so where would I find a GemStone DBA to do that for me today? Also, I'm > pretty sure even at the same level of qualifications GemStone DBA would > command a much higher salary than a MSSQL DBA, which is another > not-so-hidden part of the cost of ownership. Like I said, I don't want to > sound as being too pro-SQL, but the fact of the matter is that I've switched > from using GemStone to MSSQL about a year ago and know both sides of the > coin fairly well. Lets see if we can get something going at STS. > > Cheers! > > -Boris > > |
RE: VW - PostgreSQL question
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In reply to this post by Mark Pirogovsky-3
I was simply pointing out that GemStone *is* a database, and *needs* a DBA
just like any other database. Sure enough their sets of responsibilities differ greatly, but that's not the main issue ATM. Cheers! -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: Volker Zink [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:04 AM To: Boris Popov; [hidden email] Cc: vwnc-list Subject: Re: VW - PostgreSQL question I don't know the tasks of a Gemstone DBA or MS SQL DBA, but as a part time Oracle DBA (kind of) i know a bit of these tasks. And for sure i know them well enough [i really like features like flashback (even a simple 'select ... as of ... ' is quite nice sometimes), online backup and recovery with rman (some database files are corrupt/hard disk crashed/server crashed because there was some test of the power generator??), ... ] to tell you that this should not be discussed on this list. Please use email or meet at STS and discuss there. Volker Boris Popov wrote: > Can I maintain a large missing-critical GemStone database on a daily basis? > Probably. Do I *want* to maintain a large missing-critical GemStone database > on a daily basis? Probably not. Chances are, I'd hate spending my time > worrying about backups, tranlogs, space reclamation, performance > optimization, replication, mirroring, security and migration to new > versions. That's not what I like to do. I like to develop software, not > maintain the environment, that's DBA's job if you ask me, not developer's, > so where would I find a GemStone DBA to do that for me today? Also, I'm > pretty sure even at the same level of qualifications GemStone DBA would > command a much higher salary than a MSSQL DBA, which is another > not-so-hidden part of the cost of ownership. Like I said, I don't want to > sound as being too pro-SQL, but the fact of the matter is that I've > from using GemStone to MSSQL about a year ago and know both sides of the > coin fairly well. Lets see if we can get something going at STS. > > Cheers! > > -Boris > > |
RE: VW - PostgreSQL question
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RE: VW - PostgreSQL question
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In reply to this post by Mark Pirogovsky-3
Terry,
I'm not sure how I can express my point any better, because that's not quite what I'm talking about. Its not about which database needs more effort to configure and maintain. It's a typical oranges and apples comparison, makes no sense. Its also not a factor in deciding which database is "better", there's just no objective value in this argument. How silly would it be to compare Oracle and all its hard-earned notoriety with SQLite that is completely configuration and maintenance free. The conversation started with someone saying that GemStone should be a clear-cut choice for majority of Smalltalk applications because of its fit and supposedly affordable new pricing. I did *not* argue that point at all, but I *do* think it is important to be objective and not just think about upfront cost and benefits, but weigh in as many factors as possible into the comparison to either justify or disprove such a suggestion. It would actually go a long way towards helping GemStone reach more customers and market their product more efficiently. To summarize the example I brought up, if we were to port our mission-critical application to GemStone tomorrow, we'd have to have someone around to worry about configuration, backups, tranlogs, space reclamation, performance optimization, replication, mirroring, security and patch maintenance as we cannot afford to put development on hold to pay attention to the backend. Do you think it would be easy to find someone with experience in all of the above? Few people have expressed interest in talking about this at STS, perhaps we should just leave it until then and let everyone be heard without the distortion effect of the list. Cheers! -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Raymond [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:46 AM To: 'vwnc-list' Subject: RE: VW - PostgreSQL question Boris I can't speak for Gemstone but maintaining an Objectivity database is trivial. The system I worked on was up 24x7 so there were really no downtime slots for database admin. But we managed to schedule GC and backups so they run as an OS scheduled job. Do not equate the effort to maintain Oracle with other DBs. Terry =========================================================== Terry Raymond Smalltalk Professional Debug Package Crafted Smalltalk 80 Lazywood Ln. Tiverton, RI 02878 (401) 624-4517 [hidden email] <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com> =========================================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: Boris Popov [mailto:[hidden email]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 12:13 PM > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email] > Cc: vwnc-list > Subject: RE: VW - PostgreSQL question > > I was simply pointing out that GemStone *is* a database, and *needs* a DBA > just like any other database. Sure enough their sets of responsibilities > differ greatly, but that's not the main issue ATM. > > Cheers! > > -Boris > > -- > +1.604.689.0322 > DeepCove Labs Ltd. > 4th floor 595 Howe Street > Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 > > [hidden email] > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This email is intended only for the persons named in the message > header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is > private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please > notify the sender and delete the entire message including any > attachments. > > Thank you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Volker Zink [mailto:[hidden email]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:04 AM > To: Boris Popov; [hidden email] > Cc: vwnc-list > Subject: Re: VW - PostgreSQL question > > I don't know the tasks of a Gemstone DBA or MS SQL DBA, but as a part > time Oracle DBA (kind of) i know a bit of these tasks. And for sure i > know them well enough [i really like features like flashback (even a > simple 'select ... as of ... ' is quite nice sometimes), online backup > and recovery with rman (some database files are corrupt/hard disk > crashed/server crashed because there was some test of the power > generator??), ... ] to tell you that this should not be discussed on > this list. Please use email or meet at STS and discuss there. > > Volker > > Boris Popov wrote: > > Can I maintain a large missing-critical GemStone database on a daily > basis? > > Probably. Do I *want* to maintain a large missing-critical GemStone > database > > on a daily basis? Probably not. Chances are, I'd hate spending my time > > worrying about backups, tranlogs, space reclamation, performance > > optimization, replication, mirroring, security and migration to new > > versions. That's not what I like to do. I like to develop software, not > > maintain the environment, that's DBA's job if you ask me, not > developer's, > > so where would I find a GemStone DBA to do that for me today? Also, I'm > > pretty sure even at the same level of qualifications GemStone DBA would > > command a much higher salary than a MSSQL DBA, which is another > > not-so-hidden part of the cost of ownership. Like I said, I don't want > to > > sound as being too pro-SQL, but the fact of the matter is that I've > switched > > from using GemStone to MSSQL about a year ago and know both sides of the > > coin fairly well. Lets see if we can get something going at STS. > > > > Cheers! > > > > -Boris > > > > |
Re: VW - PostgreSQL question
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RE: VW - PostgreSQL question
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RE: VW - PostgreSQL question
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In reply to this post by Mark Pirogovsky-3
I understand now. Of course not every database needs a full-time DBA, I
shouldn't have said that. We have a perfect little StORE database running on PostgreSQL in the office and no one really pays attention to it beyond myself checking once a month that backups are being created and auto-vacuum keeps a good handle on the size. Same with databases we use for development. But we also have a 24/7 SQL Server database running in production and things are quite different in that environment. There's *always* stuff to do, certainly not a full time job for someone quite yet, but we're getting there. Because as the stakes go up, so does the attention required to ensure that everything is running smoothly. Over there if things go wrong, its too late :) GemStone would be the same, not because it *requires* us to baby-sit it, but because we *choose* to keep a close eye on things and constantly improve on various aspects, such as performance and disaster recovery. We're trying to arrange a GemStone session at STS right now, keep an eye for new there, in the meantime I'll try to refrain from more comments on the list not to spend any more time than necessary. Cheers! -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Raymond [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:31 AM To: 'vwnc-list' Subject: RE: VW - PostgreSQL question > -----Original Message----- > From: Boris Popov [mailto:[hidden email]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 1:15 PM > To: Terry Raymond; vwnc-list > Subject: RE: VW - PostgreSQL question > > Terry, > > I'm not sure how I can express my point any better, because that's not > quite > what I'm talking about. Its not about which database needs more effort to > configure and maintain. It's a typical oranges and apples comparison, > makes > no sense. Its also not a factor in deciding which database is "better", > there's just no objective value in this argument. How silly would it be to > compare Oracle and all its hard-earned notoriety with SQLite that is > completely configuration and maintenance free. The conversation started > with > someone saying that GemStone should be a clear-cut choice for majority of > Smalltalk applications because of its fit and supposedly affordable new > pricing. I did *not* argue that point at all, but I *do* think it is > important to be objective and not just think about upfront cost and > benefits, but weigh in as many factors as possible into the comparison to > either justify or disprove such a suggestion. It would actually go a long > way towards helping GemStone reach more customers and market their product > more efficiently. > > To summarize the example I brought up, if we were to port our > mission-critical application to GemStone tomorrow, we'd have to have > someone > around to worry about configuration, backups, tranlogs, space reclamation, > performance optimization, replication, mirroring, security and patch > maintenance as we cannot afford to put development on hold to pay > attention > to the backend. Do you think it would be easy to find someone with > experience in all of the above? need a dba. You really don't need a dba with Objectivity. I admit that someone does need to understand how to optimize it but that is considerably easier than with Oracle. The other cost point being the need for the customer to maintain the DB. Again, with Objectivity all that can be scripted. If you have down time then it gets even easier. Just because some DBs require a DBA it does not mean they all do. > Few people have expressed interest in talking about this at STS, perhaps > we > should just leave it until then and let everyone be heard without the > distortion effect of the list. > > Cheers! > > -Boris > > -- > +1.604.689.0322 > DeepCove Labs Ltd. > 4th floor 595 Howe Street > Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 > > [hidden email] > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > This email is intended only for the persons named in the message > header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is > private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please > notify the sender and delete the entire message including any > attachments. > > Thank you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Raymond [mailto:[hidden email]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:46 AM > To: 'vwnc-list' > Subject: RE: VW - PostgreSQL question > > Boris > > I can't speak for Gemstone but maintaining an Objectivity > database is trivial. The system I worked on was up 24x7 so > there were really no downtime slots for database admin. > But we managed to schedule GC and backups so they run > as an OS scheduled job. > > Do not equate the effort to maintain Oracle with other > DBs. > > Terry > > =========================================================== > Terry Raymond Smalltalk Professional Debug Package > Crafted Smalltalk > 80 Lazywood Ln. > Tiverton, RI 02878 > (401) 624-4517 [hidden email] > <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com> > =========================================================== > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Boris Popov [mailto:[hidden email]] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 12:13 PM > > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email] > > Cc: vwnc-list > > Subject: RE: VW - PostgreSQL question > > > > I was simply pointing out that GemStone *is* a database, and *needs* a > DBA > > just like any other database. Sure enough their sets of responsibilities > > differ greatly, but that's not the main issue ATM. > > > > Cheers! > > > > -Boris > > > > -- > > +1.604.689.0322 > > DeepCove Labs Ltd. > > 4th floor 595 Howe Street > > Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 > > > > [hidden email] > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > > > > This email is intended only for the persons named in the message > > header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is > > private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please > > notify the sender and delete the entire message including any > > attachments. > > > > Thank you. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Volker Zink [mailto:[hidden email]] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:04 AM > > To: Boris Popov; [hidden email] > > Cc: vwnc-list > > Subject: Re: VW - PostgreSQL question > > > > I don't know the tasks of a Gemstone DBA or MS SQL DBA, but as a part > > time Oracle DBA (kind of) i know a bit of these tasks. And for sure i > > know them well enough [i really like features like flashback (even a > > simple 'select ... as of ... ' is quite nice sometimes), online backup > > and recovery with rman (some database files are corrupt/hard disk > > crashed/server crashed because there was some test of the power > > generator??), ... ] to tell you that this should not be discussed on > > this list. Please use email or meet at STS and discuss there. > > > > Volker > > > > Boris Popov wrote: > > > Can I maintain a large missing-critical GemStone database on a daily > > basis? > > > Probably. Do I *want* to maintain a large missing-critical GemStone > > database > > > on a daily basis? Probably not. Chances are, I'd hate spending my time > > > worrying about backups, tranlogs, space reclamation, performance > > > optimization, replication, mirroring, security and migration to new > > > versions. That's not what I like to do. I like to develop software, > not > > > maintain the environment, that's DBA's job if you ask me, not > > developer's, > > > so where would I find a GemStone DBA to do that for me today? Also, > I'm > > > pretty sure even at the same level of qualifications GemStone DBA > would > > > command a much higher salary than a MSSQL DBA, which is another > > > not-so-hidden part of the cost of ownership. Like I said, I don't want > > to > > > sound as being too pro-SQL, but the fact of the matter is that I've > > switched > > > from using GemStone to MSSQL about a year ago and know both sides of > the > > > coin fairly well. Lets see if we can get something going at STS. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > -Boris > > > > > > > =========================================================== Terry Raymond Smalltalk Professional Debug Package Crafted Smalltalk 80 Lazywood Ln. Tiverton, RI 02878 (401) 624-4517 [hidden email] <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com> =========================================================== |
Re: VW - PostgreSQL question
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In reply to this post by Mark Pirogovsky-3
Mark Pirogovsky wrote:
> > PostgreSQL allows columns of a table to be defined as variable-length > multidimensional arrays. Arrays of any built-in or user-defined base > type can be created. > [...] > Any information is greatly appreciated. Here's what happens with the PostgreSQL Client (for Squeak, but it runs in VW, and I can dig it up, if you want it). I ran: self execute: 'CREATE TABLE array_test ( col1 INTEGER[5], col2 INTEGER[][], col3 INTEGER[2][2][] ); '. self execute: 'INSERT INTO array_test VALUES ( ''{1,2,3,4,5}'', ''{{1,2},{3,4}}'', ''{{{1,2},{3,4}},{{5,6}, {7,8}}}'' ); '. self execute: 'SELECT * FROM array_test'. Hopefully, the attached .png shows the explorer on the PGResult. What it tells me is that the raw communication between the client and the postgres server represents the array results as strings, which you then have to parse. The strings look pretty much exactly like the literal values in the INSERT stmt. HTH. |
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