Vision and Roadmap
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Hello,
I have been pretty windy on the other thread. ;) I would like to start a thread as to what the community would like to see Amber a Smalltalk implemented in JS become. It would be nice to have a process where ideas are collected and explicitly declared a part of our goals or rejected. Many communities have excellent processes for such. Python has its PEPs. Such a process may be a little heavy at this stage of Amber's existence. But we can learn from other communities. It would be nice if we had champions, stewards or whatever of particular parts of the vision or roadmap. People who can oversee it or make it happen. We know somewhat what Amber currently is according to its implementation. But what do we want it to be? What is Amber 1.0?, 2.0? What is our vision and how do we get there. What is our story and how do we tell it? Thanks. Jimmie |
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For me, Amber 1.0 is *stable*. It has a full featured IDE that helps web
developers with the web app development process and increases productivity. Ideally, Amber 1.0 is fully capable of using existing JS libraries (we're already quite close). That's what I want to focus on. Amber 2.0? No idea, really. I'm not there yet. There are so many possibilities and Amber is evolving so quickly :) Cheers, Nico On Fri, 2011-10-07 at 12:31 -0500, Jimmie Houchin wrote: > Hello, > > I have been pretty windy on the other thread. ;) > > I would like to start a thread as to what the community would like to > see Amber a Smalltalk implemented in JS become. > > It would be nice to have a process where ideas are collected and > explicitly declared a part of our goals or rejected. > > Many communities have excellent processes for such. Python has its PEPs. > Such a process may be a little heavy at this stage of Amber's existence. > But we can learn from other communities. > > It would be nice if we had champions, stewards or whatever of particular > parts of the vision or roadmap. People who can oversee it or make it happen. > > We know somewhat what Amber currently is according to its > implementation. But what do we want it to be? > > What is Amber 1.0?, 2.0? > > What is our vision and how do we get there. What is our story and how > do we tell it? > > Thanks. > > Jimmie |
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In reply to this post by Jimmie Houchin-5
On 10/7/2011 12:31 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
<Snip original post> On 10/7/2011 12:41 PM, Nicolas Petton wrote: in the thread: Re: [amber-lang] Amber v. Dojo v. Seaside > Thanks Jimmie for your comments. > > The strong point of Amber, for me, is that it brings the Smalltalk > environment, not only the language, to web development. I can edit my > code live, inspect, debug, everything on the fly, even JS objects. No > need to save a js file, reload the page, see that something's still > wrong, go back to the text editor, etc. When I was able to save code > from Amber's IDE for the first time, it felt great. I felt that at some > point I would finally get the power and productivity I had with > Smalltalk dialects. > > Now, what I want for the future is the full Smalltalk system inside my > browser. I don't really care about Smalltalk the language (well, I do, a > bit), I care about Smalltalk the vision. > > Cheers, > Nico Thanks Nico, That is the song I wanted to hear. :) That is a vision I can jump on board with. It also gives us comfort in the hear and now when Amber doesn't quite behave or feel like or provide some of the creature comforts we are used to in other Smalltalks. Because we no the vision and where we are going. I agree about the Smalltalk the language part. I could live with and enjoy other languages also, if they had the vision for the power of a live environment and objects. I know there is no "image" in Amber per se. But, can we somewhat emulate one, with some means of saving the whole app state onto the filesystem. Maybe version control via GIT. Allowing us to persist through browser restarts, updates, crashes etc. Is Amber a Smalltalk tied the browser? Would it run on node.js or in some such set up? Now or in the future? Just curious. I really would like to be able to use Amber to drive a full Desktop app in the browser. Lots of options available there. I know that I could actually use any small headless web server to implement such. Lua and Xavante. Python and CherryPy, etc. But I would prefer to keep it in the family if possible. :) Thanks for participating in this conversation. Jimmie |
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In reply to this post by Jimmie Houchin-5
I would like to see better documentation. I've messed with JTalk / Amber several times, and still don't know how to create a blank HTML page that links to the necessary JS, and attaches a component to a div. So if I've got the following HTML:
<html> <head> </head> <body> <div id="outer"> <div id="inner"></div> </div> </body> </html> Before I can create an actual application with Amber, I need to know (a) what links do I include in <head> (b) how do I attach a component to div#inner There is no brain-dead example to get people started. Pat On Oct 7, 2011, at 10:31 AM, Jimmie Houchin wrote: > Hello, > > I have been pretty windy on the other thread. ;) > > I would like to start a thread as to what the community would like to see Amber a Smalltalk implemented in JS become. > > It would be nice to have a process where ideas are collected and explicitly declared a part of our goals or rejected. > > Many communities have excellent processes for such. Python has its PEPs. Such a process may be a little heavy at this stage of Amber's existence. But we can learn from other communities. > > It would be nice if we had champions, stewards or whatever of particular parts of the vision or roadmap. People who can oversee it or make it happen. > > We know somewhat what Amber currently is according to its implementation. But what do we want it to be? > > What is Amber 1.0?, 2.0? > > What is our vision and how do we get there. What is our story and how do we tell it? > > Thanks. > > Jimmie |
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In reply to this post by Jimmie Houchin-5
Hi!
On 10/07/2011 08:19 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote: > Is Amber a Smalltalk tied the browser? Would it run on node.js or in > some such set up? Now or in the future? Just curious. If you clone Amber from github and take a look, you will find several examples for Node.js and even webOS: https://github.com/NicolasPetton/amber/tree/master/examples So no, Amber is not tied to the browser - it just needs a js runtime. This means we can *today* build: - webOS apps (there is an example) - node.js apps (there are several examples, including the webDAV server Nicolas wrote for dealing with PUT of source code and amberc - the standalone compiler also runs in node.js) - Seed apps? (javascript + Gtk) I started with an example but... :) regards, Göran |
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In reply to this post by patmaddox
On 10/07/2011 10:15 PM, Pat Maddox wrote:
> I would like to see better documentation. More is coming every day, and Nicolas is soon pushing a documentation system utilizing asciidoc which I think will be superb. > There is no brain-dead example to get people started. Have you looked at the wiki? https://github.com/NicolasPetton/amber/wiki It seems people are missing two important resources here: - The wiki, see above. - The github clone (the file tree with examples) regards, Göran |
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In reply to this post by patmaddox
On Oct 7, 4:15 pm, Pat Maddox <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Before I can create an actual application with Amber, I need to know > (a) what links do I include in <head> Tools like Firebug help. Current Amber way is to load amber.js, then call loadAmber() with appropriate parameters. See wiki. Once you get that working, use Firebug to figure out what gets loaded in what order. Play with the setDeployment boolean parameter and see the difference. After that, you can load Amber JS files directly without using loadAmber() if you wish. > (b) how do I attach a component to div#inner This changed between JTalk and Amber. I have a blog post for JTalk: http://samadhiweb.com/blog/2011.03.19.jtalk.html Here's how it was done in that post. (I'm doing this in a browser. Hope the HTML doesn't get messed up.) <div id="jtalk_do_it"> <p>This is placeholder text. You will see this text if you're reading this post from the blog's main page or RSS feed. Go on, click on the post's title to see Jtalk in action.</p> </div> <script type="application/javascript"> smalltalk.init(smalltalk.SmdwHelloWorld); jQuery(document).ready(function() {"#jtalk_do_it"._asJQuery()._contents_(smalltalk.SmdwHelloWorld._new())}); </script> Current Amber is different, though: smalltalk.SmdwHelloWorld._new()._appendToJQuery_("#jtalk_do_it"._asJQuery()) |
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Pierce,
I am not sure why you go down to the JavaScript level. As Göran writes, people may not be aware of the wiki. Have you seen this? https://github.com/NicolasPetton/amber/wiki/Writing-my-first-app --Hannes On 10/8/11, Pierce Ng <[hidden email]> wrote: > On Oct 7, 4:15 pm, Pat Maddox <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Before I can create an actual application with Amber, I need to know >> (a) what links do I include in <head> > > Tools like Firebug help. Current Amber way is to load amber.js, then > call loadAmber() with appropriate parameters. See wiki. Once you get > that working, use Firebug to figure out what gets loaded in what > order. Play with the setDeployment boolean parameter and see the > difference. After that, you can load Amber JS files directly without > using loadAmber() if you wish. > >> (b) how do I attach a component to div#inner > > This changed between JTalk and Amber. I have a blog post for JTalk: > > http://samadhiweb.com/blog/2011.03.19.jtalk.html > > Here's how it was done in that post. (I'm doing this in a browser. > Hope the HTML doesn't get messed up.) > > <div id="jtalk_do_it"> > <p>This is placeholder text. You will see this text if you're reading > this > post from the blog's main page or RSS feed. Go on, click on the > post's > title to see Jtalk in action.</p> > </div> > > <script type="application/javascript"> > smalltalk.init(smalltalk.SmdwHelloWorld); > jQuery(document).ready(function() > > {"#jtalk_do_it"._asJQuery()._contents_(smalltalk.SmdwHelloWorld._new())}); > </script> > > Current Amber is different, though: > > > smalltalk.SmdwHelloWorld._new()._appendToJQuery_("#jtalk_do_it"._asJQuery()) > > |
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Regarding documentation, what about creating a wiki and organizing a little doc-marathon? We're a small but pretty active community, and I think we could get the whole thing done in one or two days... if you agree, we could write the index and divide chapters among whoever wants to participate.
About Amber 2.0... I really wish we'll have a server-side Smalltalk solution by then :) Cheers!
2011/10/8 H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> Pierce, Bernat Romagosa. |
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On 10/08/2011 01:57 PM, Bernat Romagosa wrote:
> Regarding documentation, what about creating a wiki and organizing a I don't want to sound like a broken record - but there *is* a wiki :) Also, Nicolas will soon push the Asciidoc integration which will make it possible to write a large part of the documentation inside Amber. > little doc-marathon? We're a small but pretty active community, and I > think we could get the whole thing done in one or two days... if you > agree, we could write the index and divide chapters among whoever wants > to participate. I am all fine with a marathon, sounds like fun. > About Amber 2.0... I really wish we'll have a server-side Smalltalk > solution by then :) Personally I want to explore using Amber on Node for server side - basically because I believe the differences (Amber vs other Smalltalks) to be large enough so having Amber on both sides is an advantage. But again, all approaches are cool and choice is good :) regards, Göran |
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On 10/8/11, Göran Krampe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 10/08/2011 01:57 PM, Bernat Romagosa wrote: >> Regarding documentation, what about creating a wiki and organizing a > > I don't want to sound like a broken record - but there *is* a wiki :) Yes, the wiki is here https://github.com/NicolasPetton/amber/wiki But probably it is not clear if other people than Nicolas may edit it. Today I got an account on github.com and after login I realized that there is an "Edit" button for the wiki of Nicolas. However I do not know if other people are supposed to edit it. --Hannes |
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In reply to this post by Bernat Romagosa
On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Bernat Romagosa <[hidden email]> wrote: Regarding documentation, what about creating a wiki and organizing a little doc-marathon? We're a small but pretty active community, and I think we could get the whole thing done in one or two days... if you agree, we could write the index and divide chapters among whoever wants to participate. Personally I would like documentation to be in Amber, and not external. I want to be able to see, edit and commit documentation from amber itself, reuse class comments. Amber is about making web applications, documentation should be a web application IMO.
We can port HelpSystem to Amber for example. Laurent.
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On 10/09/2011 09:43 AM, laurent laffont wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Bernat Romagosa > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> > wrote: > > Regarding documentation, what about creating a wiki and organizing a > little doc-marathon? We're a small but pretty active community, and > I think we could get the whole thing done in one or two days... if > you agree, we could write the index and divide chapters among > whoever wants to participate. > > > > Personally I would like documentation to be in Amber, and not external. > I want to be able to see, edit and commit documentation from amber > itself, reuse class comments. Amber is about making web applications, > documentation should be a web application IMO. > > We can port HelpSystem to Amber for example. > > Laurent. Nicolas, could you post a few words about your documentation system that you have brewing? It is indeed based on the concept of having documentation "in Amber". BUT... the wiki is still important IMO to catch the "rest", like links to good blog articles, other tutorials etc. regards, Göran |
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In reply to this post by Jimmie Houchin-5
Hello,
I've been lurking around this project for a while, and feel that now is as good a time as any to post something, this thread seems like the ideal place to air my thoughts. I've been following this project since JTalk, and been very impressed and excited. I am an avid Smalltalk newbie, love the whole way Smalltalk works and feels. I've worked with many Smalltalks, including creating my own based on LST3, but I digress. The one overriding thing I'd like to see in Amber from a users standpoint is an advancement to the integrated development paradigm. Don't get me wrong, the browser and other components that are already there are great, amazing in fact, but I think the potential for Amber lies in taking it to the next step. I'll explain by way of an example... At the moment, as per the wiki tutorials, you create a folder (projects/hello), and create an index.html file in there, populate it with the boilerplate, sufficient to get a browser running. Then you create a new base level object, save and commit. Then you modify the index.html to make sure the newly generated objects are loaded. Then you start coding your web page against that object category. I can imagine a situation where you run up the node.js server, go to the main page, which has a developer dashboard, rather than the default web site page. This represents a basic project IDE, that will allow you to start working on a new project simply by clicking "Create Project", entering some details into a form, and it sets up the boilerplate for you. The IDE would have editing facilities for the HTML as well as the browser, so you can edit the HTML in the same interface. You can start editing your Smalltalk object code, update your initialisation JavaScript, refresh the page view, all in one place. I percieve this level of integration to be the ideal goal for me personally. To be able to develop web applications in this way with Smalltalk would be a dream. I can imagine demonstrating this live to someone, all within web browser, it would be very engaging. I have many other desires, but they are much more off the wall than this, which I think is relatively easy to achieve, I may even take a look at doing it myself if I can find any spare bandwidth. Cheers Paul On Oct 7, 6:31 pm, Jimmie Houchin <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hello, > > I have been pretty windy on the other thread. ;) > > I would like to start a thread as to what the community would like to > see Amber a Smalltalk implemented in JS become. > > It would be nice to have a process where ideas are collected and > explicitly declared a part of our goals or rejected. > > Many communities have excellent processes for such. Python has its PEPs. > Such a process may be a little heavy at this stage of Amber's existence. > But we can learn from other communities. > > It would be nice if we had champions, stewards or whatever of particular > parts of the vision or roadmap. People who can oversee it or make it happen. > > We know somewhat what Amber currently is according to its > implementation. But what do we want it to be? > > What is Amber 1.0?, 2.0? > > What is our vision and how do we get there. What is our story and how > do we tell it? > > Thanks. > > Jimmie |
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In reply to this post by Hannes Hirzel
On 10/08/2011 06:02 PM, H. Hirzel wrote:
> On 10/8/11, Göran Krampe<[hidden email]> wrote: >> On 10/08/2011 01:57 PM, Bernat Romagosa wrote: >>> Regarding documentation, what about creating a wiki and organizing a >> >> I don't want to sound like a broken record - but there *is* a wiki :) > > > Yes, the wiki is here > > https://github.com/NicolasPetton/amber/wiki > > But probably it is not clear if other people than Nicolas may edit it. > > Today I got an account on github.com and after login I realized that > there is an "Edit" button for the wiki of Nicolas. However I do not > know if other people are supposed to edit it. Please help out and edit/add pages :). It is a wiki after all! regards, Göran |
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In reply to this post by pgregory
This sounds great and shouldn't be that hard to do. Working over webdav already works. All that is needed is a file browser, an editor and a reorganisation of the base folders to allow the creation of projects.
On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Paul Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote: Hello, |
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