On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Lee Breisacher
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
Consider that java/c# deliver all the base class libraries.
Yes, but the runtime only loads classes that are used, generally at the moment they are used. I'd like to see RL work that way (which is the way it is going at the moment).
I don't quite get the desire to have an image (but I'm fine with others persuing it, Bob), although I certainly want that "magic" feel -- I just hold out hope it can be done within eclipse (and others).
I'm not precluding that idea at all. I just don't see how you get there (immersed in that 'magic' feel) using Eclipse (or JetBrains) in their traditional coding paradigm.
I'm trying to get away from that paradigm, while taking advantage of the JVM as a VM, and preserving Smalltalk semantics a la Pharo (which is the stated goal of Redline, no?).
Others desire to write in Smalltalk syntax, but wish to preserve the 'standard' way of coding to the JVM in the Java tooling universe, preserving much of Java's semantics by deeply integrating with its core libraries.
Both are legitimate, but different, use cases. If Redline can make both camps happy, it's an accomplishment with huge win for the software development industry, as it will take some new ideas to bridge all the gaps and those new ideas can only be good.
I also don't get the desire for a non-standard IDE.
What I find most compelling about Smalltalk is that you're not so much in an integrated development environment but an interactive world of live objects. Tools like the debugger and browser are just tools to see into (and modify) the live code behind those living objects.
The modern IDE is based on metaphors specific to static file programming. That's great, and I am not knocking them. For code that Redline users wish to write in that way, there should be integrations with the 'standard' IDEs. That side of things interests me less.
Again, I think the fact that Smalltalk has nearly always lived in its own non-standard world is one of the reasons it has not gained wider use. If we can make RL work smoothly within eclipse (and IJ), that's a huge win imo. Developers want to work in these nice standard supported environments.
Some do; I don't. I mean, I can work in that world and build great apps. But I've never felt the creative quality of my life as a developer is improved by that way of working. Smalltalk makes me feel more creative and productive, but I long for a VM implementation that gives me concurrency, parallelism, 3D graphics, easy data access, etc. Redline has the potential to satisfy that need sooner than other alternatives.
I think that the image-based way of working has problems, to be sure. Image management is a big issue in traditional Smalltalk. But I want to push that paradigm further and improve the state of the art in that area so that the benefits -- which none dispute -- can be accessible to all programmers without the attendant difficulties.
Perhaps a new metaphor to replace 'Image' is required, to make the concept clearer. Anyway, I don't have any more to say on this, other than that I worry less about the 'standard' IDEs and 'standard' developer requirements and more about pushing the limits of what I love about Smalltalk on the JVM.
- Bob
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