What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
 
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I hate yellowButtonPressed and redButtonPressed and blueButtonPressed messages.
Why not lefClick, rightClick and "middleClick"? Cheers, Guille |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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On Jan 24, 2011, at 5:39 AM, Guillermo Polito wrote: I hate yellowButtonPressed and redButtonPressed and blueButtonPressed messages. Yes. Back in the days, the color buttons where "holy cows". You just could not even suggest to change it. For me, after 13 years of Squeak and later Pharo, I still have no clue which color means what... they have no meaning. There is no green button on my mouse. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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Sure, we got the right to change historical code.
But beware, naming actions with physical button positioncould be misleading... ... it does not take into account the logical indirection. We could as well use intention revealing names like selectButton operateButton haloButton... .. Err, no more halo in Pharo, these names are prematurely frozen and don't take future evolutions into account. Oh, we need some more neutral naming scheme, but for sure, something less colorfull that these childish st-80 and e toys. I suggest you use whiteButton greyButton blackButton, or maybe paleBlueButton, lightCyanButton to be more inline with an aqua theme ;) Nicolas 2011/1/24 Marcus Denker <[hidden email]>: > > On Jan 24, 2011, at 5:39 AM, Guillermo Polito wrote: > > I hate yellowButtonPressed and redButtonPressed and blueButtonPressed > messages. > > Why not lefClick, rightClick and "middleClick"? > > > Yes. > Back in the days, the color buttons where "holy cows". You just could not > even suggest to > change it. > For me, after 13 years of Squeak and later Pharo, I still have no clue which > color means what... > they have no meaning. There is no green button on my mouse. > Marcus > > > > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
On Jan 24, 2011, at 9:36 AM, Nicolas Cellier wrote: > Sure, we got the right to change historical code. > > But beware, naming actions with physical button positioncould be misleading... > ... it does not take into account the logical indirection. > > We could as well use intention revealing names like selectButton > operateButton haloButton... > .. Err, no more halo in Pharo, these names are prematurely frozen and > don't take future evolutions into account. > > Oh, we need some more neutral naming scheme, but for sure, something > less colorfull that these childish st-80 and e toys. > I suggest you use whiteButton greyButton blackButton, or maybe > paleBlueButton, lightCyanButton to be more inline with an aqua theme *no* Colors have no *meaning* in this context. I can not even tell you the three colors we have now. And not at all which is supposed to be the middle one. Colors for buttons make no sense *at all* if your buttons have no colors. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
On 24 Jan 2011, at 08:25, Marcus Denker wrote: > On Jan 24, 2011, at 5:39 AM, Guillermo Polito wrote: > >> I hate yellowButtonPressed and redButtonPressed and blueButtonPressed messages. >> >> Why not lefClick, rightClick and "middleClick"? >> > > Yes. > > Back in the days, the color buttons where "holy cows". You just could not even suggest to > change it. > > For me, after 13 years of Squeak and later Pharo, I still have no clue which color means what... > they have no meaning. There is no green button on my mouse. > > Marcus #select, #menu and #extra ? Then again, touch UI is different again. Sven |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
Don't take me wrong.
I perfectly agree that colors have no meaning. They had once upon a time on the dorado, but we don't care. What I say is that there is a level of indirection between physical button and semantic buttons: (left, middle, right) -> logical buttons (whatever you call them) -> semantic buttons (operate, menu, extra) So either you keep the logical indirection, or you remove it. If you keep it, the naming is not that obvious and has to be abstract. So the colours are not a bad choice from this POV. Call it alpha, beta gamma if you will, but then you are changing things just for the sake of changing. If you remove the indirection, then you have to wonder if you don't loose something, and that was the meaning behind my post. I don't have the answer to this one, but you have to think of it. It's a bit boring to explain one's joke, sorry for that ;). Nicolas 2011/1/24 Marcus Denker <[hidden email]>: > > On Jan 24, 2011, at 9:36 AM, Nicolas Cellier wrote: > >> Sure, we got the right to change historical code. >> >> But beware, naming actions with physical button positioncould be misleading... >> ... it does not take into account the logical indirection. >> >> We could as well use intention revealing names like selectButton >> operateButton haloButton... >> .. Err, no more halo in Pharo, these names are prematurely frozen and >> don't take future evolutions into account. >> >> Oh, we need some more neutral naming scheme, but for sure, something >> less colorfull that these childish st-80 and e toys. >> I suggest you use whiteButton greyButton blackButton, or maybe >> paleBlueButton, lightCyanButton to be more inline with an aqua theme > > *no* Colors have no *meaning* in this context. I can not even tell you the > three colors we have now. And not at all which is supposed to be the middle one. > > Colors for buttons make no sense *at all* if your buttons have no colors. > > Marcus > > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > > > |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
I agree with the original proposal, because MouseEvents denote the
physical action performed by the user on the hardware, which evidently has a left, a middle and a right section. Regardless of the action Morphic associates with each click, #select, #menu, etc... Fernando On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On 24 Jan 2011, at 08:25, Marcus Denker wrote: > >> On Jan 24, 2011, at 5:39 AM, Guillermo Polito wrote: >> >>> I hate yellowButtonPressed and redButtonPressed and blueButtonPressed messages. >>> >>> Why not lefClick, rightClick and "middleClick"? >>> >> >> Yes. >> >> Back in the days, the color buttons where "holy cows". You just could not even suggest to >> change it. >> >> For me, after 13 years of Squeak and later Pharo, I still have no clue which color means what... >> they have no meaning. There is no green button on my mouse. >> >> Marcus > > #select, #menu and #extra ? > > Then again, touch UI is different again. > > Sven > > > > |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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And if you swap mouse buttons, you are replacing left button by right button ;). I open a ticket.
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 7:51 AM, Fernando Olivero <[hidden email]> wrote: I agree with the original proposal, because MouseEvents denote the |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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In reply to this post by Fernando olivero-2
Sorry Fernando,
The question is can we remove a level of indirection ? And to answer this, you have to consider these other questions: - what was the purpose of this level of indirection ? - do we still need it or not ? I don't feel like your yes/no answer is satisfying, please give more ellaborated arguments. Nicolas 2011/1/24 Fernando Olivero <[hidden email]>: > I agree with the original proposal, because MouseEvents denote the > physical action performed by the user on the hardware, which evidently > has a left, a middle and a right section. Regardless of the action > Morphic associates with each click, #select, #menu, etc... > > Fernando > > On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> On 24 Jan 2011, at 08:25, Marcus Denker wrote: >> >>> On Jan 24, 2011, at 5:39 AM, Guillermo Polito wrote: >>> >>>> I hate yellowButtonPressed and redButtonPressed and blueButtonPressed messages. >>>> >>>> Why not lefClick, rightClick and "middleClick"? >>>> >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>> Back in the days, the color buttons where "holy cows". You just could not even suggest to >>> change it. >>> >>> For me, after 13 years of Squeak and later Pharo, I still have no clue which color means what... >>> they have no meaning. There is no green button on my mouse. >>> >>> Marcus >> >> #select, #menu and #extra ? >> >> Then again, touch UI is different again. >> >> Sven >> >> >> >> > > |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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Here is a squeak wiki post about colored mouse buttons: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/897
And the part that says "The Smalltalk image from which Squeak is derived was designed to run with a three-button mouse on an Alto or Dorado computer. These buttons were known as the Red button, Yellow button, and Blue button, and some mice on the Parc computers really had buttons of these colors." allows me to think that originally, the buttons were named just like the hardware :). So calling them left, right and middle... Is right the same but more meaningful. Another classification there puts them as:
So we could call them primary, secondary and (tertiary or meta). I like it :). Cheers, Guille
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:18 AM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote: Sorry Fernando, |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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BTW, "Meta" is another name I would like to get rid of :P.
Guille On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:41 AM, Guillermo Polito <[hidden email]> wrote: Here is a squeak wiki post about colored mouse buttons: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/897 |
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In reply to this post by Guillermo Polito
+1
there are another issue: future is coming and soon we will have more than three buttons (in fact, if apple guys are correct, we will have "as many buttons as we want" :P) El 24/01/2011, a las 8:41a.m., Guillermo Polito escribió: Here is a squeak wiki post about colored mouse buttons: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/897 |
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
2011/1/24 Marcus Denker <[hidden email]>:
> > On Jan 24, 2011, at 5:39 AM, Guillermo Polito wrote: > > I hate yellowButtonPressed and redButtonPressed and blueButtonPressed > messages. > > Why not lefClick, rightClick and "middleClick"? > > > Yes. > Back in the days, the color buttons where "holy cows". You just could not > even suggest to > change it. > For me, after 13 years of Squeak and later Pharo, I still have no clue which > color means what... > they have no meaning. There is no green button on my mouse. > Marcus > " The original device connected to the Alto and Dorado machines had 3 buttons labelled "yellow", "red" and "blue" " From http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/wolfgang.kreutzer/cosc205/smalltalk1.html > > > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://www.marcusdenker.de > INRIA Lille -- Nord Europe. Team RMoD. > |
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2011/1/24 Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]>:
> 2011/1/24 Marcus Denker <[hidden email]>: >> >> On Jan 24, 2011, at 5:39 AM, Guillermo Polito wrote: >> >> I hate yellowButtonPressed and redButtonPressed and blueButtonPressed >> messages. >> >> Why not lefClick, rightClick and "middleClick"? >> >> >> Yes. >> Back in the days, the color buttons where "holy cows". You just could not >> even suggest to >> change it. >> For me, after 13 years of Squeak and later Pharo, I still have no clue which >> color means what... >> they have no meaning. There is no green button on my mouse. >> Marcus >> > > " The original device connected to the Alto and Dorado machines had 3 > buttons labelled "yellow", "red" and "blue" " > From http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/wolfgang.kreutzer/cosc205/smalltalk1.html > BTW I guess colors were choosen by someone with background in color psychology, there are *a lot* studies about color symbolism. Hernán |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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In reply to this post by Guillermo Polito
I agree that the meaning of the colors is no longer useful, although "hate" is maybe a bit harsh :) Surely this has already been addressed in other environments? api.jquery.com/mousedown for example also refers to the left, middle and right button. Even Apple's multi-touch "magic-mouse" talks about left and right-clicks (which is ironic as they have long resisted to even add a second button) ... but also mouse events for the "360° scroll", "Screen zoom" and "two-finger swipe". |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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I totally agree with the color buttons being really confusing. What's funny is that it's not even consistent. For instance, preference "swapMouseButtons" comment is "if true, swaps mouse buttons 2 and 3". What's that suppose to mean? Weren't mouse buttons colored?? :)
However, I have a question: once you change the names to left, right, middle, what will happen if swapMouseButtons is true? Will "middleClick" still mean "middleClick"? Cheers Richo
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Geert Claes <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Guillermo Polito
2011/1/24 Guillermo Polito <[hidden email]>
I hate yellowButtonPressed and redButtonPressed and blueButtonPressed messages. What's with lefties? Is their left button on the right side or on the left side of the mouse? What's with five button mice with three regular buttons and one additional on each side? Are these lefter button and righter button? (What's with Wii remote? Is A left or B right or front or back? So what's with touchpads, Dance Dance revolution pads and bongos?) I think left, right, middle ain't better than red, yellow, blue! Actually it's worse. Alex |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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In reply to this post by Geert Claes
Exactly : logicalRight can be different than physicalRight.
If you tell me this distinction is useless, then I'll ask you to consider touch screen and other modern input devices. That's why I ask this community to reformulate and think. Then you'll can argue at will whether the logical level shall be named #right #logicalRight or #blue, I don't care. For newer kind of events (gestures), we have a more difficult dilemna: emulate the feel or use native OS facilities... The question is of same nature as native look. Even if we choose to rely on OS, we have to think of cross platform portability and ways to emulate missing capabilities. In other words, I doubt we can afford the elimination of a level of indirection. Maybe it's time to refactor indeed, but please, bring up your brain one level above this colour naming battle. Don't replay battles of the past, turn toward the future. Nicolas 2011/1/24 Geert Claes <[hidden email]>: > > > Guillermo Polito wrote: >> >> I hate yellowButtonPressed and redButtonPressed and blueButtonPressed >> messages. >> >> Why not lefClick, rightClick and "middleClick"? >> > > I agree that the meaning of the colors is no longer useful, although "hate" > is maybe a bit harsh :) > > Surely this has already been addressed in other environments? > http://api.jquery.com/mousedown api.jquery.com/mousedown for example also > refers to the left, middle and right button. > > Even Apple's multi-touch "magic-mouse" talks about left and right-clicks > (which is ironic as they have long resisted to even add a second button) ... > but also mouse events for the "360° scroll", "Screen zoom" and "two-finger > swipe". > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/What-about-a-little-rename-in-MouseEvent-tp3233363p3233916.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > |
Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]> wrote: Exactly : logicalRight can be different than physicalRight. Mmm, maybe we can work in little steps. I think that renaming is a good first step for a refactor. To refactor code you need to understand it, and the colors makes me not to understand it.
Then we can change it again.
Oh, that was no my intention. I didn't even know of past battles before this thread. I was only tired of unmeaningful colors. Please, don't turn the discussion like that, I didn't mean that :S. Guille
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Re: What about a little rename in MouseEvent?
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In reply to this post by laza
That's why in my mail I suggested primary, secondary and tertiary for example :).
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Alexander Lazarević <[hidden email]> wrote: 2011/1/24 Guillermo Polito <[hidden email]> |
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