What about killing PharoWeb images?
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Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
 
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Ok....so, after reading all answers and comments I see the following possible actions:
1) Do nothing and keep things as now 2) Like 1) but change PharoWeb name to PharoSeaside. 3) Don't create PharoWeb images any more but gives the user the possibilities to use Seaside + Pharo. Now, my final point of view: 1) I don't like it because of what I have already said. 2) I like it more than 1) but anyway I don't like it. 3) For me it is the best solution. We can do, the following things: 3.a) Put in www.pharo-project.org/download a text among these lines: "There are few ways to develop Web application using Pharo. The most important and common framework is Seaside. Seaside is the web framework for building sophisticated applications in Smalltalk. Seaside provides what it is called "one click image" which is a compressed file that you only need to uncompress and double click to have a complete IDE to develop with seaside (even with web browser!!!). The link is... Take into account that this image may have different look and feel, preferences and tools from our one PharoDev image. This image is recommended for beginners and new comers. However, there is another way to use Seaside with Pharo and it is installing it by yourself in a PharoDev image. To do this, the best approach is to use the Metacello configuration. To do that, just evaluate the following code in a PharoDev image: Gofer....ConfiguratioOfSeaside...etc This apprach is recommended for people who already have a little of knoweldege with Pharo and Seaside. " 3.b) Using this way, we encourage people to use the Metacello configuration for Seaside and that's the most important thing because we can give feedback on it, fix issues, etc. And this is also shared for example with Gemstone. They will give feedback on us and us on them. We will probable make even simpler the move for applications from Pharo to Gemstone. 3.c) Those beta testers that said that they would test Web images, can just install Seaside exactly the same way a final user will do (use the metacello configuration). So...we are also testing that. 3.d) Not now, but maybe in a future we can even use the Esteban Lorenzano's Loader for Metacello. That would be even simpler. They will be able to take a PharoDev image and just evaluate: Loader load:'Seaside 2.8.4' and wala! So...I don't know how this kind of big decisions are taken. The borad decides? We do a poll ? I don't know. What do we do ? On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
2010/1/5 Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>
I don't think so. How many people do you think that are using PharoWeb? I even don't know anyone. And we have enough beta testers for Dev images. And the difference between Dev and Web images is that in Web there are also the seaside packages, but there is NO change in the packages load. So, the only issues that can appear in PharoWeb but not in PharoDev are those related to Seaside, and that's seaside, not us. It would be cool to hear also the opinion of the pople who is using pharoweb images (if there is anyone). Cheers Mariano
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Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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In reply to this post by csrabak
+1 Once Pharo has arrived at a stage where it is extremely easy to manage components/project packages - both from the project and user's point of view - there will still a place to provide a stable environment for those interrested in a dev/web/seaside/aidaweb/glass etc type of image. From a testing and support point of view, this discussion actually makes me think in a way about the "Pharo-beginner mailing list" suggestion. Pharo's main focuss is on Pharo-Core. On top of Pharo core there may be a number of projects e.g : Pharo-Seaside, Pharo-AIDAWeb, Pharo-Moose, Pharo-GLASS, which all can be loaded into (or un-loaded from) the image (I guess the ConfigurationOfNnnn type scripts). There should be no loss in testers because issues can still be logged, discussed and escallated to the issue culprit, whether it was a configuration script issue or a Pharo-Core issue, no? |
Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
You know someone (me). If the
installation is not a moving target, then I can add it to the list of things I
do to create a new image, but having Seaside in place has been
appreciated.
In general,
"that's xyz's problem" wears thin. Taken to extremes, it could turn into
"sure, the browser is broken, but that's not Pharo's doing; the debugger trashes
the image sometimes, but that's the external debugger package that's to blame;
you can't build stable web applications, but that's not Pharo's problem,
..." True as some claims of this type might be, we won't be able to get
away with it forever, and we should have things that are known to work or look
for ways to replace them.
Bill From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 8:37 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What about killing PharoWeb images? 2010/1/5 Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>
I don't think so. How many people do you think that are using PharoWeb? I even don't know anyone. And we have enough beta testers for Dev images. And the difference between Dev and Web images is that in Web there are also the seaside packages, but there is NO change in the packages load. So, the only issues that can appear in PharoWeb but not in PharoDev are those related to Seaside, and that's seaside, not us. It would be cool to hear also the opinion of the pople who is using pharoweb images (if there is anyone). Cheers Mariano
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Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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2010/1/5 Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>
Wait...one thing is not to have a PharoWeb image prepared and public so that people can download. But another thing is not to test. We have created a group of 13 beta testers where some of them will tests web images. They will test that using the metacello configuration. And if this is not working, we will make it work. I haven't time to tested by myself but as far as I know both seaside 2.8.4 and 3.0 metacello configurations are perfectly being load in a PharoDev image. So...seaside WILL be in place (if it not already done).
Of course. Buy we need help. Do you take care of fixing and integrating OB and O2 ? Cool.
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Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
The Pharo-Web image is not just the Pharo Seaside image though! I also remember earlier versions of Pharo-Web to have stuff like AIDAWeb and others, but I recently noticed too that was no longer the case. I would go option 4 :) Until Pharo has a well established user friendly package management system, why not look at the Pharo-Web image as Pharo's showcase web development image? A one-click image people can play around with without having to know too much about how to load stuff into their image. On another note, the Pharo team probalby has enough other stuff on their plate to worry too much about what to do with the Pharo-Web image :) |
Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Geert Claes <[hidden email]> wrote:
I haven't see AIDAWeb in a Web image, but that's a very good idea.
Because of all the things I already have said: why to duplicate efforts? In that case, you the Seaside one click. What cab be easier than that ? And it would be FAR more stable than ours. Do we create PharoGlassClient image ? no. Do we create PharoMoos image? no. Because it is obvious that they know better than us what versions to include. Of course, if Seaside ready images doesn't exist we will probably do it. Give me only one reason why spending time and resources in PharoWeb ? (taking into account you have other several alternatives better than this)
There is no such thing of "Pharo team". Pharo team are us. You. The community. Pharo has NO employee. There is the board but doesn't mean they are working full time in Pharo. -- _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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Administrator
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I don't see it as duplicating efforts, the Pharo-Web image is (should be) more than Pharo-Seaside and having this sandpit image will probably give a lot more feedback than just having a Pharo-Dev image ... in my view. Settle down mate ... anyway, the Pharo Team is doing great stuff :) |
Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Geert Claes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ok, fortunately, we live in a free world :) Everybody can think whatever. And that's cool.
Yes, no problem :) But this is not something small to say. For me this is very important. For example, do you know who use to do the dev images since the last 2 or even more years ? Damien. Unfortunately Damien is very complicated with his studies (in Java) and has very little (or almost nothing) to prepare the images. So, it is easy to pretend. But who will do the images right now ? You will ? Anyway, I am glad to hear all the opinions. So...instead of building bad images, unstable and that gives a bad impression to the final user I proposed a simple solution for this. Maybe it is not the best. But this what we have. I even think I would do what I said having good images (but forget this). Damien also use to integrate stuff on OB and O2 for example before release. Who will do that now ? I don't know. That's why I am since 2 weeks writing Metacello configurations for all packages and that's why I asked Damien if he could send me his scrips and instructions of how to build those images. Kind regards, Mariano -- _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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As an example...today I was in a Stef lesson at the Ecole de Mines. They have to do a TP with Pharo, and it was really sad to see Stef asking me in the middle of the class if the dev image from the website was usable or not. Image the students thoughts. I had to put the last image I had "stable" and put it in a USB key and give it to the students.
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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My experience is that the images on the site probably
are not "stable" as-is, but that means the process needs to be fixed rather than
killing off useful products - sending people off on their own will not help
anything in itself. We also need to put some obstacles in the way of
inclusion in Pharo; the latter will have pros and cons, but I suspect it will
eventually be necessary for us to have a quality
product.
Bill From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 12:01 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What about killing PharoWeb images? On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck
<[hidden email]>
wrote:
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Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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Let us be pragmatic and focused.
I would say that I would prefer to have one single pharo-dev image than a middle pharo-dev image and a pharo-web. We can focus on pharo-dev And let lukas ship a one-click seaside image. With the time the pharo-dev will support easy configuration to load seaside aida and a lot more so we will just offer one good image and let people decide. so I would focus on our customers first :) Stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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I too believe that is the best choice at this moment.
Cheers, Doru On 5 Jan 2010, at 20:15, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Let us be pragmatic and focused. > > I would say that I would prefer to have one single pharo-dev image > than a middle pharo-dev image and a pharo-web. > We can focus on pharo-dev > And let lukas ship a one-click seaside image. > > With the time the pharo-dev will support easy configuration to load > seaside > aida > and a lot more so we will just offer one good image and let people > decide. > so I would focus on our customers first :) > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- www.tudorgirba.com "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
2010/1/5 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>:
> 3) Don't create PharoWeb images any more but gives the user the possibilities to use Seaside + Pharo. > 3) For me it is the best solution. We can do, the following things: > > 3.a) Put in www.pharo-project.org/download a text among these lines: > 3.b) Using this way, we encourage people to use the Metacello configuration for Seaside and that's the most important thing because we can give feedback on it, fix issues, etc. And this is also shared for example with Gemstone. They will give feedback on us and us on them. We will probable make even simpler the move for applications from Pharo to Gemstone. > 3.c) Those beta testers that said that they would test Web images, can just install Seaside exactly the same way a final user will do (use the metacello configuration). So...we are also testing that. > > 3.d) Not now, but maybe in a future we can even use the Esteban Lorenzano's Loader for Metacello. That would be even simpler. They will be able to take a PharoDev image and just evaluate: Loader load:'Seaside 2.8.4' and wala! Lukas is right when he said that PharoWeb used to have Aida in. I stopped installing Aida inside PharoWeb images because it was kind of a pain to make Seaside and Aida work happily together. It doesn't take me much time to build PharoWeb images currently because Seaside 2.8 is quite stable. However, you may be right when you say that it is not Pharo's job to build Seaside images. Download counts can be seen on GForge website: https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/?group_id=1299. I also provide some not-up-to-date graphics: http://damiencassou.dabbledb.com/publish/dev-imagesdownloads. These statistics show that web images are downloaded by nearly as much people as the dev images. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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this is true that the data are really surprising to me. So I was wrong about the uses scenario.
So some people really like to use web on advanced bleeding edge software :) > It doesn't take me much time to build PharoWeb images currently > because Seaside 2.8 is quite stable. However, you may be right when > you say that it is not Pharo's job to build Seaside images. Damien I think that I would prefer you get your little time pushing pharo-dev :) > Download counts can be seen on GForge website: > https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/?group_id=1299. I also provide some > not-up-to-date graphics: > http://damiencassou.dabbledb.com/publish/dev-imagesdownloads. These > statistics show that web images are downloaded by nearly as much > people as the dev images. stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba
Hello,
Yes... we need to control the amount of work invested. And we need to be clear when we reach a point where we just can't provide something. So I vote for not having an official web image. Marcus On Jan 5, 2010, at 9:11 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > I too believe that is the best choice at this moment. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 5 Jan 2010, at 20:15, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >> Let us be pragmatic and focused. >> >> I would say that I would prefer to have one single pharo-dev image >> than a middle pharo-dev image and a pharo-web. >> We can focus on pharo-dev >> And let lukas ship a one-click seaside image. >> >> With the time the pharo-dev will support easy configuration to load >> seaside >> aida >> and a lot more so we will just offer one good image and let people >> decide. >> so I would focus on our customers first :) >> >> Stef >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What about killing PharoWeb images?
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me too
On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Marcus Denker wrote: > Hello, > > Yes... we need to control the amount of work invested. And we need to be > clear when we reach a point where we just can't provide something. > > So I vote for not having an official web image. > > Marcus > > On Jan 5, 2010, at 9:11 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> I too believe that is the best choice at this moment. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> On 5 Jan 2010, at 20:15, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> Let us be pragmatic and focused. >>> >>> I would say that I would prefer to have one single pharo-dev image >>> than a middle pharo-dev image and a pharo-web. >>> We can focus on pharo-dev >>> And let lukas ship a one-click seaside image. >>> >>> With the time the pharo-dev will support easy configuration to load >>> seaside >>> aida >>> and a lot more so we will just offer one good image and let people >>> decide. >>> so I would focus on our customers first :) >>> >>> Stef >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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