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What's new in Pharo 5.0

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Sean P. DeNigris

What's new in Pharo 5.0

Administrator

Is there a more complete description than the announcement? I've been dutifully following the mailing lists, but don't feel like I have a real handle on what the new features are and why they matter. Thanks!

Cheers,
Sean

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

Administrator

Sean P. DeNigris wrote

Is there a more complete description than the announcement?

I should've mentioned that I did see the link to the bugtracker, but I'm looking for some middle ground between the 5 bullet points in the announcement and the 2400+ issues tagged for Pharo 5.0

Cheers,
Sean

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

Administrator

Doing some exploring... BlueInk, Chroma, Flashback, Renraku - all packages with no class comments. How would a new user discover what these are?

Also, not new to Pharo 5.0, but thinking as a new user... Nautilus presents the system as an overwhelming mess of top level packages. I guess this is because we're showing packages, which are a dependency/SCM artifact, instead of capturing/representing logical domain relations. There are so many packages that start with e.g. System. It is not relevant to the user that they are packaged separately, unless one is hacking that library. These should all be collapsed under a top-level System node.

Cheers,
Sean

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

> On 24 May 2016, at 03:37, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Sean P. DeNigris wrote
>> Is there a more complete description than the announcement?
>
> I should've mentioned that I did see the link to the bugtracker, but I'm
> looking for some middle ground between the 5 bullet points in the
> announcement and the 2400+ issues tagged for Pharo 5.0

It is our fault that such a list does not exist, but it is really, really hard to make it, since no one knows everything. It is also a huge amount of work.

> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/What-s-new-in-Pharo-5-0-tp4896954p4896955.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

> On 24 May 2016, at 04:00, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Doing some exploring... BlueInk, Chroma, Flashback, Renraku - all packages
> with no class comments.

The missing class comments are totally unacceptable, we should refuse these.

Apart from BlueInk (a code formatter), I have never heard or seen the others ;-)

> How would a new user discover what these are?

If these are important to end users, they should be mentioned somewhere.

> Also, not new to Pharo 5.0, but thinking as a new user... Nautilus presents
> the system as an overwhelming mess of top level packages. I guess this is
> because we're showing packages, which are a dependency/SCM artifact, instead
> of capturing/representing logical domain relations. There are so many
> packages that start with e.g. System. It is not relevant to the user that
> they are packaged separately, unless one is hacking that library. These
> should all be collapsed under a top-level System node.

This has been suggested before. I actually like the current approach, I would not want to click open trees all the time.

> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/What-s-new-in-Pharo-5-0-tp4896954p4896956.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Marcus Denker-4

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

> On 24 May 2016, at 07:41, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> On 24 May 2016, at 03:37, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Sean P. DeNigris wrote
>>> Is there a more complete description than the announcement?
>>
>> I should've mentioned that I did see the link to the bugtracker, but I'm
>> looking for some middle ground between the 5 bullet points in the
>> announcement and the 2400+ issues tagged for Pharo 5.0
>
> It is our fault that such a list does not exist, but it is really, really hard to make it, since no one knows everything. It is also a huge amount of work.

Yes, I was not able to do this. At some point one needs to decide: Release (finish!), as imperfect as it is, or not.

Marcus

stepharo

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

When people use a configuration and add a description

hovering over the package show you the description and this helps for real.

Stef

Le 24/5/16 à 04:00, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :

> Doing some exploring... BlueInk, Chroma, Flashback, Renraku - all packages
> with no class comments. How would a new user discover what these are?
>
> Also, not new to Pharo 5.0, but thinking as a new user... Nautilus presents
> the system as an overwhelming mess of top level packages. I guess this is
> because we're showing packages, which are a dependency/SCM artifact, instead
> of capturing/representing logical domain relations. There are so many
> packages that start with e.g. System. It is not relevant to the user that
> they are packaged separately, unless one is hacking that library. These
> should all be collapsed under a top-level System node.
>
>
>
> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/What-s-new-in-Pharo-5-0-tp4896954p4896956.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>

EstebanLM

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

On 24 May 2016, at 04:00, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:

Also, not new to Pharo 5.0, but thinking as a new user... Nautilus presents
the system as an overwhelming mess of top level packages. I guess this is
because we're showing packages, which are a dependency/SCM artifact, instead
of capturing/representing logical domain relations. There are so many
packages that start with e.g. System. It is not relevant to the user that
they are packaged separately, unless one is hacking that library. These
should all be collapsed under a top-level System node.

I do agree with this, but we need to find a way to do it… But we need to think how to do it. My main idea is to offer “views” (always configurable in settings so power users can take what they want), something like:

- using manifests, we can add tagging of packages. For instance, Nautilus can be tagged #browser, Monticelo #vcs, #versionControl, etc… so we can offer searchs… and even offer a nautlus a view “by tag”…

- another view can be “hide system packages”: user does not need to directly see many of those packages, so we could filter them (I would also use a property in manifests for this)

Another thing, not related to views but possible and easy to implement (but not to complete, of course) I want to add is the possibility of package comments (also using the manifest) so we can offer a high level view (often a class does not explains what a package is, like Renraku… that can be a nice (?, no idea what it does means) fantasy name, but it does not offer any explanation of what it is for).

I think this two ideas can make the environment a lot better… what do you think?

Esteban

EstebanLM

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by stepharo

> On 24 May 2016, at 08:05, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> When people use a configuration and add a description
>
> hovering over the package show you the description and this helps for real.

yes, this is super cool… but I would like the possibility to toggle a “comment” for packages too :)

Esteban

>
>
> Stef
>
> Le 24/5/16 à 04:00, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
>> Doing some exploring... BlueInk, Chroma, Flashback, Renraku - all packages
>> with no class comments. How would a new user discover what these are?
>>
>> Also, not new to Pharo 5.0, but thinking as a new user... Nautilus presents
>> the system as an overwhelming mess of top level packages. I guess this is
>> because we're showing packages, which are a dependency/SCM artifact, instead
>> of capturing/representing logical domain relations. There are so many
>> packages that start with e.g. System. It is not relevant to the user that
>> they are packaged separately, unless one is hacking that library. These
>> should all be collapsed under a top-level System node.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Cheers,
>> Sean
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/What-s-new-in-Pharo-5-0-tp4896954p4896956.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>
>

stepharo

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

Le 24/5/16 à 08:21, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
>> On 24 May 2016, at 08:05, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> When people use a configuration and add a description
>>
>> hovering over the package show you the description and this helps for real.
> yes, this is super cool… but I would like the possibility to toggle a “comment” for packages too :)

Sure I push the manifest also for that.
So let us make every package gets a manifest and add a button to display
the description.

>
> Esteban
>
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> Le 24/5/16 à 04:00, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
>>> Doing some exploring... BlueInk, Chroma, Flashback, Renraku - all packages
>>> with no class comments. How would a new user discover what these are?
>>>
>>> Also, not new to Pharo 5.0, but thinking as a new user... Nautilus presents
>>> the system as an overwhelming mess of top level packages. I guess this is
>>> because we're showing packages, which are a dependency/SCM artifact, instead
>>> of capturing/representing logical domain relations. There are so many
>>> packages that start with e.g. System. It is not relevant to the user that
>>> they are packaged separately, unless one is hacking that library. These
>>> should all be collapsed under a top-level System node.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> Cheers,
>>> Sean
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/What-s-new-in-Pharo-5-0-tp4896954p4896956.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

CyrilFerlicot

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

On 24/05/2016 04:00, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
> Doing some exploring... BlueInk, Chroma, Flashback, Renraku - all packages
> with no class comments. How would a new user discover what these are?
>

BlueInk is the new configurable formatter.
In Chroma there is only one classe with a class comment.
Flashback is the new decompiler.
Renkaku I don't know what it is but I know this is use by QualityAssistant.

--
Cyril Ferlicot

http://www.synectique.eu

165 Avenue Bretagne
Lille 59000 France

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demarey

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by stepharo

I already have support for package comments with cargo (including ui) using the package manifest. In fact, it is more. I have support for package metadata on packages (cf screenshot)

The question is how do you integrate that with current browser? When you select a package, the class creation template is displayed and there is no much space to display other things.

Le 24 mai 2016 à 09:15, stepharo <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Le 24/5/16 à 08:21, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
On 24 May 2016, at 08:05, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:

When people use a configuration and add a description

hovering over the package show you the description and this helps for real.
yes, this is super cool… but I would like the possibility to toggle a “comment” for packages too :)

Sure I push the manifest also for that.
So let us make every package gets a manifest and add a button to display the description.

Esteban

Stef

Le 24/5/16 à 04:00, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Doing some exploring... BlueInk, Chroma, Flashback, Renraku - all packages
with no class comments. How would a new user discover what these are?

Also, not new to Pharo 5.0, but thinking as a new user... Nautilus presents
the system as an overwhelming mess of top level packages. I guess this is
because we're showing packages, which are a dependency/SCM artifact, instead
of capturing/representing logical domain relations. There are so many
packages that start with e.g. System. It is not relevant to the user that
they are packaged separately, unless one is hacking that library. These
should all be collapsed under a top-level System node.

-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/What-s-new-in-Pharo-5-0-tp4896954p4896956.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

CyrilFerlicot

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

On 24/05/2016 07:44, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>
> The missing class comments are totally unacceptable, we should refuse these.
>

+10000

It is really frustrating to take free time to improve the comments of
the current classes and to see that there is dozens of classes without
comment added in the same time.

> Apart from BlueInk (a code formatter), I have never heard or seen the others ;-)
>
>> How would a new user discover what these are?
>
> If these are important to end users, they should be mentioned somewhere.
>

Another important think about it is to remember that the user don't know
what the community knows. I see for example setting talking about
Renkaku, about Growl, about a lot of stuff… But how as a use should I
know what I need to do with the setting "Renkaku's rule"? This is only
an example (I do not target you Yuriy :) ) but there is a lot everywhere
in Pharo.

> This has been suggested before. I actually like the current approach, I would not want to click open trees all the time.
>

--
Cyril Ferlicot

http://www.synectique.eu

165 Avenue Bretagne
Lille 59000 France

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EstebanLM

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by demarey

there is a space: same as class comment now.

On 24 May 2016, at 10:00, Christophe Demarey <[hidden email]> wrote:

I already have support for package comments with cargo (including ui) using the package manifest. In fact, it is more. I have support for package metadata on packages (cf screenshot)
The question is how do you integrate that with current browser? When you select a package, the class creation template is displayed and there is no much space to display other things.

<Capture d’écran 2016-05-24 à 09.55.44.png>

Le 24 mai 2016 à 09:15, stepharo <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Le 24/5/16 à 08:21, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
On 24 May 2016, at 08:05, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:

When people use a configuration and add a description

hovering over the package show you the description and this helps for real.
yes, this is super cool… but I would like the possibility to toggle a “comment” for packages too :)

Sure I push the manifest also for that.
So let us make every package gets a manifest and add a button to display the description.

Esteban

Stef

Le 24/5/16 à 04:00, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Doing some exploring... BlueInk, Chroma, Flashback, Renraku - all packages
with no class comments. How would a new user discover what these are?

Also, not new to Pharo 5.0, but thinking as a new user... Nautilus presents
the system as an overwhelming mess of top level packages. I guess this is
because we're showing packages, which are a dependency/SCM artifact, instead
of capturing/representing logical domain relations. There are so many
packages that start with e.g. System. It is not relevant to the user that
they are packaged separately, unless one is hacking that library. These
should all be collapsed under a top-level System node.

-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/What-s-new-in-Pharo-5-0-tp4896954p4896956.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

demarey

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

> Le 24 mai 2016 à 10:08, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> there is a space: same as class comment now.

only for the class comment, not for other package metadata

EstebanLM

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

> On 24 May 2016, at 13:19, Christophe Demarey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> Le 24 mai 2016 à 10:08, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> there is a space: same as class comment now.
>
>
> only for the class comment, not for other package metadata

you can use the same: if package is selected, then shows package comment, if class is selected, then class comment.

Uko2

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

> On 24 May 2016, at 04:00, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Doing some exploring... BlueInk, Chroma, Flashback, Renraku - all packages
> with no class comments. How would a new user discover what these are?

How comes that Renraku has no class comments?

Uko2

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by CyrilFerlicot

> On 24 May 2016, at 10:09, Cyril Ferlicot Delbecque <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 24/05/2016 07:44, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>>
>> The missing class comments are totally unacceptable, we should refuse these.
>>
>
> +10000
>
> It is really frustrating to take free time to improve the comments of
> the current classes and to see that there is dozens of classes without
> comment added in the same time.
>
>> Apart from BlueInk (a code formatter), I have never heard or seen the others ;-)
>>
>>> How would a new user discover what these are?
>>
>> If these are important to end users, they should be mentioned somewhere.
>>
>
> Another important think about it is to remember that the user don't know
> what the community knows. I see for example setting talking about
> Renkaku, about Growl, about a lot of stuff… But how as a use should I
> know what I need to do with the setting "Renkaku's rule"? This is only
> an example (I do not target you Yuriy :) ) but there is a lot everywhere
> in Pharo.

Because people should give more feedback. Now as you point this out I know that I have to improve. But at the moment when I was implementing the stuff my main goal was to provide the functionality somewhere else then just a script on class side, and after I’ve managed to copy the bottom and make it work I was very happy and didn’t think that it’s not clear for users. Now I know and can elaborate on that.

>
>> This has been suggested before. I actually like the current approach, I would not want to click open trees all the time.
>>
>
>
> --
> Cyril Ferlicot
>
> http://www.synectique.eu
>
> 165 Avenue Bretagne
> Lille 59000 France
>

CyrilFerlicot

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

In reply to this post by demarey

On 24/05/2016 13:19, Christophe Demarey wrote:
>
>> Le 24 mai 2016 à 10:08, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>> there is a space: same as class comment now.
>
>
> only for the class comment, not for other package metadata
>

Maybe the package comment can be at the place of the class comment when
the package is selected and for the other metadatas a button that would
open a new window can be add to Nautilus? For now there is some free
space close to the scope button.

--
Cyril Ferlicot

http://www.synectique.eu

165 Avenue Bretagne
Lille 59000 France

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Uko2

Re: What's new in Pharo 5.0

By the way, we can add a rule that checks if a package has a comment. Because for example I had no idea that you can comment packages.

> On 24 May 2016, at 14:37, Cyril Ferlicot Delbecque <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 24/05/2016 13:19, Christophe Demarey wrote:
>>
>>> Le 24 mai 2016 à 10:08, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>>
>>> there is a space: same as class comment now.
>>
>>
>> only for the class comment, not for other package metadata
>>
>
> Maybe the package comment can be at the place of the class comment when
> the package is selected and for the other metadatas a button that would
> open a new window can be add to Nautilus? For now there is some free
> space close to the scope button.
>
> --
> Cyril Ferlicot
>
> http://www.synectique.eu
>
> 165 Avenue Bretagne
> Lille 59000 France
>