What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
 
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Hi Folks, I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two. Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) - on _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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Hi oscar
Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit > confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I > thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me > a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not > packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two. > > Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) > > - on > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Oscar Nierstrasz
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit > confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I > thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me > a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not > packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two. > > Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) Pharo will contain a package-based browser. Please forget the image I gave you this afternoon. I've already generated a new one. -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Stef,
Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? Hi oscar Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: - dual browser - class extensions - traits - refactoring - icons Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have - dual browser - class extensions - traits - icons So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. Stef On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit > confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I > thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me > a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not > packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two. > > Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) > > - on > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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"Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support:..."
Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> wrote: Stef, _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Choose OB but not the version with package when you change from system
browser to other by clicking ong the left top bottom of a window Stef On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Stef, > > Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? > > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email] > ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in > Pharo? > > Hi oscar > > Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: > - dual browser > - class extensions > - traits > - refactoring > - icons > > Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear > what colin will integrate or not. > Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have > - dual browser > - class extensions > - traits > - icons > So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best > of the worlds. > Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful > browser is important and right now if the browser does not support > trait then we should remove traits from the image. > Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and > other package related functionality. > Stef > > > > On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: > >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a >> bit >> confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I >> thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me >> a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, >> not >> packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two. >> >> Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) >> >> - on >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
Stef,
Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open
things that I consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable
to try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact it
makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to give some
guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of help" or "well worth
adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock cycles at
present.
Bill
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>
wrote: Stef, _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Stef,
My initial reaction is to strongly suggest doing something to get the additional speed offered by the choice below, but I need to either get some hard data by profiling some typical operations, or at least work with it under real conditions. I am curious what others who have found Pharo to be sluggish find with it. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:45 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? Choose OB but not the version with package when you change from system browser to other by clicking ong the left top bottom of a window Stef On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Stef, > > Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? > > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email] > ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in > Pharo? > > Hi oscar > > Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: > - dual browser > - class extensions > - traits > - refactoring > - icons > > Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear > what colin will integrate or not. > Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have > - dual browser > - class extensions > - traits > - icons > So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of > the worlds. > Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful > browser is important and right now if the browser does not support > trait then we should remove traits from the image. > Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and > other package related functionality. > Stef > > > > On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: > >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a >> bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. >> I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave >> me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, >> not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the >> two. >> >> Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) >> >> - on >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
> Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded?
You use a Pharo-Core image and the script published here (you might want to comments the parts you don't need, e.g. Seaside, Magirtte, Pier): http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/ImageBuildScripts Lukas 2009/7/2 Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>: > Stef, > > Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? > > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? > > Hi oscar > > Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: > - dual browser > - class extensions > - traits > - refactoring > - icons > > Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. > Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have > - dual browser > - class extensions > - traits > - icons > So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. > Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. > Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. > Stef > > > > On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: > >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit >> confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I >> thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me >> a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not >> packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two. >> >> Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) >> >> - on >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
PakcageInfo is slow.
I'm starting to work on a replacement. On Jul 3, 2009, at 12:45 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Stef, > > My initial reaction is to strongly suggest doing something to get > the additional speed offered by the choice below, but I need to > either get some hard data by profiling some typical operations, or > at least work with it under real conditions. I am curious what > others who have found Pharo to be sluggish find with it. > > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email] > ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:45 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in > Pharo? > > Choose OB but not the version with package when you change from > system browser to other by clicking ong the left top bottom of a > window Stef > > On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Stef, >> >> Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? >> >> Bill >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] >> [mailto:[hidden email] >> ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse >> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >> Pharo? >> >> Hi oscar >> >> Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: >> - dual browser >> - class extensions >> - traits >> - refactoring >> - icons >> >> Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear >> what colin will integrate or not. >> Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have >> - dual browser >> - class extensions >> - traits >> - icons >> So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best >> of >> the worlds. >> Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful >> browser is important and right now if the browser does not support >> trait then we should remove traits from the image. >> Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and >> other package related functionality. >> Stef >> >> >> >> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a >>> bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. >>> I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave >>> me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser >>> (Categories, >>> not packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the >>> two. >>> >>> Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) >>> >>> - on >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Hi Bill,
Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to make progress at this front too ;) What we should start with is to identify which features makes it slow. I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify single features so that we know where to optimize or which features should better be disabled. What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts and speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro). Cheers, Adrian [1] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/009905.html On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Stef, > > Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I > consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable > to try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact > it makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to > give some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of > help" or "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of > clock cycles at present. > > Bill > > > ________________________________ > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email] > ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in > Pharo? > > "Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package > support:..." > > Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > Stef, > > Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? > > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > > [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > >] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM > To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > > > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in > Pharo? > > Hi oscar > > Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: > - dual browser > - class extensions > - traits > - refactoring > - icons > > Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear > what colin will integrate or not. > Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have > - dual browser > - class extensions > - traits > - icons > So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best > of the worlds. > Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful > browser is important and right now if the browser does not support > trait then we should remove traits from the image. > Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and > other package related functionality. > Stef > > > > On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: > >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a >> bit >> confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I >> thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me >> a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, >> not >> packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two. >> >> Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) >> >> - on >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >> > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] > > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli
2009/7/3 Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]>:
>> Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? > > You use a Pharo-Core image and the script published here (you might > want to comments the parts you don't need, e.g. Seaside, Magirtte, > Pier): > > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/ImageBuildScripts > Lukas, how did you put a syntax highlight for this script? Can't beleive Google supports smalltalk syntax highlighting :) > Lukas > > 2009/7/2 Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>: >> Stef, >> >> Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? >> >> Bill >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse >> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? >> >> Hi oscar >> >> Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: >> - dual browser >> - class extensions >> - traits >> - refactoring >> - icons >> >> Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear what colin will integrate or not. >> Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have >> - dual browser >> - class extensions >> - traits >> - icons >> So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best of the worlds. >> Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful browser is important and right now if the browser does not support trait then we should remove traits from the image. >> Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and other package related functionality. >> Stef >> >> >> >> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a bit >>> confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I >>> thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave me >>> a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, not >>> packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the two. >>> >>> Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) >>> >>> - on >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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> Lukas, how did you put a syntax highlight for this script?
> Can't beleive Google supports smalltalk syntax highlighting :) That's done automatically. I guess it uses Javascript highlighting, it is certainly not quite correct. AFAIK there is no way to disable or change it. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Adrian Lienhard
yes yes yes!
Stef On Jul 3, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > Hi Bill, > > Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to > make progress at this front too ;) > > What we should start with is to identify which features makes it slow. > > I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify single > features so that we know where to optimize or which features should > better be disabled. > > What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the > moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts and > speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro). > > Cheers, > Adrian > > [1] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/009905.html > > > On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Stef, >> >> Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I >> consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable >> to try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact >> it makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to >> give some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of >> help" or "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of >> clock cycles at present. >> >> Bill >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email] >> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck >> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >> Pharo? >> >> "Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package >> support:..." >> >> Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email] >> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> Stef, >> >> Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? >> >> Bill >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>> ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse >> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM >> To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>> >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >> Pharo? >> >> Hi oscar >> >> Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: >> - dual browser >> - class extensions >> - traits >> - refactoring >> - icons >> >> Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear >> what colin will integrate or not. >> Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have >> - dual browser >> - class extensions >> - traits >> - icons >> So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best >> of the worlds. >> Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful >> browser is important and right now if the browser does not support >> trait then we should remove traits from the image. >> Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and >> other package related functionality. >> Stef >> >> >> >> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a >>> bit >>> confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. I >>> thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave >>> me >>> a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser (Categories, >>> not >>> packages). I cannot even see any more how to switch between the >>> two. >>> >>> Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) >>> >>> - on >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>>> >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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Adrian,
I share Stef's enthusiasm for your suggested process. Thanks for taking my prods about speed in the constructive spirit in which they are intended. One concern though: is the benchmark of opening and closing browsers able to give a realistic comparison of performance? Time to open a debugger is probably worth noting, but the things that concern me most with the browsers are poor response to keyboard input, time delays selecting a new class or method, and (most notably) time required to recompile a class; changing the category can take several seconds in my experience. Re keyboard input, I suspect characters are being lost; in fairness, that is difficult to test, because it requires typing quickly and accurately. Still, Pharo strikes me as just not being able to keep up, and it's worse with the package browser. You are of course correct to keep free type and Shout on the list of suspects, though I must say that Shout has always struck me as eerily fast. In short, I do not dispute that the difference is speed is small, especially for the open/close that is benchmarked. However, there is simply no "extra speed" to waste. Ideally, benchmarks should compare the different browsers with and without shout and free type, rounded corners, etc., and should separate selecting a new class and method. Some of my trouble might stem from using Linux for much of my work. I cannot describe the extent of my frustration with Windows - I've had it and then some. I'll stop the rant there (yes, I could go on for a while yet<g>). However, I cannot in good conscience join the "Linux is faster than Windows" crowd, and I am willing to consider the possibility that the display handling in the linux vm (no accusations, just in the interest of intellectual honesty) might have room for improvement, and/or the design of X-windows might not help. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:48 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? yes yes yes! Stef On Jul 3, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > Hi Bill, > > Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to > make progress at this front too ;) > > What we should start with is to identify which features makes it slow. > > I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify single > features so that we know where to optimize or which features should > better be disabled. > > What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the > moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts and > speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro). > > Adrian > > [1] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/009905. > html > > > On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Stef, >> >> Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I >> consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable to >> try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact it >> makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to give >> some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of help" or >> "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock >> cycles at present. >> >> Bill >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: [hidden email] >> [mailto:[hidden email] >> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck >> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >> Pharo? >> >> "Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package >> support:..." >> >> Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K >> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> Stef, >> >> Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? >> >> Bill >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: >> [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project-boun >> [hidden email] >>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo-pro >>> [hidden email] >>> ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse >> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM >> To: >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >> .inria.fr >>> >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >> Pharo? >> >> Hi oscar >> >> Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: >> - dual browser >> - class extensions >> - traits >> - refactoring >> - icons >> >> Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear >> what colin will integrate or not. >> Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have >> - dual browser >> - class extensions >> - traits >> - icons >> So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best >> of the worlds. >> Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful >> browser is important and right now if the browser does not support >> trait then we should remove traits from the image. >> Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and >> other package related functionality. >> Stef >> >> >> >> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a >>> bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. >>> I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just gave >>> me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser >>> (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to >>> switch between the two. >>> >>> Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) >>> >>> - on >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >>> e.inria.fr >>>> >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >> .inria.fr >>> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email] >> .inria.fr >>> >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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On 4-Jul-09, at 12:08 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Adrian, > > I share Stef's enthusiasm for your suggested process. Thanks for > taking my prods about speed in the constructive spirit in which they > are intended. > > One concern though: is the benchmark of opening and closing browsers > able to give a realistic comparison of performance? Time to open a > debugger is probably worth noting, but the things that concern me > most with the browsers are poor response to keyboard input, time > delays selecting a new class or method, and (most notably) time > required to recompile a class; changing the category can take > several seconds in my experience. I should note that in testing with a limited memory VM say 40MB it seemed that every other time I opened a browser window it would toss a memory failure walkback. So I'd suggest althought time is important, has any one looked at how much memory is required to do the process? This allocation seemed temporary btw. -- = = = ======================================================================== John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com = = = ======================================================================== _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Hi Bill,
David and Alex made couple of speed improvements in OmniBrowser during yesterday's sprint. I will let them detail on what they achieved so far. Summarizing your mail below, the following are the most important actions to optimize: - response to keyboard input - time delays selecting a new class or method - time required to recompile a class - changing the category (class or method?) Anybody interested to do benchmarks of these actions (e.g., comparing Pharo to Pharo-core)? Cheers, Adrian On Jul 4, 2009, at 21:08 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Adrian, > > I share Stef's enthusiasm for your suggested process. Thanks for > taking my prods about speed in the constructive spirit in which they > are intended. > > One concern though: is the benchmark of opening and closing browsers > able to give a realistic comparison of performance? Time to open a > debugger is probably worth noting, but the things that concern me > most with the browsers are poor response to keyboard input, time > delays selecting a new class or method, and (most notably) time > required to recompile a class; changing the category can take > several seconds in my experience. > > Re keyboard input, I suspect characters are being lost; in fairness, > that is difficult to test, because it requires typing quickly and > accurately. Still, Pharo strikes me as just not being able to keep > up, and it's worse with the package browser. You are of course > correct to keep free type and Shout on the list of suspects, though > I must say that Shout has always struck me as eerily fast. > > In short, I do not dispute that the difference is speed is small, > especially for the open/close that is benchmarked. However, there > is simply no "extra speed" to waste. Ideally, benchmarks should > compare the different browsers with and without shout and free type, > rounded corners, etc., and should separate selecting a new class and > method. > > Some of my trouble might stem from using Linux for much of my work. > I cannot describe the extent of my frustration with Windows - I've > had it and then some. I'll stop the rant there (yes, I could go on > for a while yet<g>). However, I cannot in good conscience join the > "Linux is faster than Windows" crowd, and I am willing to consider > the possibility that the display handling in the linux vm (no > accusations, just in the interest of intellectual honesty) might > have room for improvement, and/or the design of X-windows might not > help. > > Bill > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email] > ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:48 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in > Pharo? > > yes yes yes! > > Stef > On Jul 3, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > >> Hi Bill, >> >> Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to >> make progress at this front too ;) >> >> What we should start with is to identify which features makes it >> slow. >> >> I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify >> single >> features so that we know where to optimize or which features should >> better be disabled. >> >> What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the >> moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts >> and >> speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro). >> > Cheers, >> Adrian >> >> [1] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/ >> 009905. >> html >> >> >> On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >> >>> Stef, >>> >>> Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I >>> consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable >>> to >>> try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact it >>> makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to >>> give >>> some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of help" >>> or >>> "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock >>> cycles at present. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: [hidden email] >>> [mailto:[hidden email] >>> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck >>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM >>> To: [hidden email] >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >>> Pharo? >>> >>> "Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package >>> support:..." >>> >>> Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K >>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >>> Stef, >>> >>> Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: >>> [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project- >>> boun >>> [hidden email] >>>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo- >>>> pro >>>> [hidden email] >>>> ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse >>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM >>> To: >>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>> [hidden email] >>> .inria.fr >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >>> Pharo? >>> >>> Hi oscar >>> >>> Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: >>> - dual browser >>> - class extensions >>> - traits >>> - refactoring >>> - icons >>> >>> Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear >>> what colin will integrate or not. >>> Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have >>> - dual browser >>> - class extensions >>> - traits >>> - icons >>> So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best >>> of the worlds. >>> Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful >>> browser is important and right now if the browser does not support >>> trait then we should remove traits from the image. >>> Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and >>> other package related functionality. >>> Stef >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Folks, >>>> >>>> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a >>>> bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. >>>> I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just >>>> gave >>>> me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser >>>> (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to >>>> switch between the two. >>>> >>>> Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) >>>> >>>> - on >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>>> [hidden email] >>>> e.inria.fr >>>>> >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>> [hidden email] >>> .inria.fr >>>> >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>> [hidden email] >>> .inria.fr >>>> >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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Adrian,
That's a pretty good summary of the details I listed. Perhaps more important, I am suggesting that we create benchmarks of a typical number of open browsers' response to normal use. We should probably also parameterize the theme in use and the options (Shout, free type, rounded corners, etc.) that are enabled, to allow us to compare the effects of the "luxury" items. Ideally, the benchmark would run all of the combinations and leave behind a text file identifying the also the contributor and their description of the machine, allowing us to see what clobers us on which OS+hardware. The category change I had in mind was of a class, in particular, suppose I have packages SpellingErrors-Stupid and SpellingErrors-ReelyStupid, and want to change the second one<g>; OB really ground to a crawl on things like that. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Adrian Lienhard Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 6:32 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in Pharo? Hi Bill, David and Alex made couple of speed improvements in OmniBrowser during yesterday's sprint. I will let them detail on what they achieved so far. Summarizing your mail below, the following are the most important actions to optimize: - response to keyboard input - time delays selecting a new class or method - time required to recompile a class - changing the category (class or method?) Anybody interested to do benchmarks of these actions (e.g., comparing Pharo to Pharo-core)? Cheers, Adrian On Jul 4, 2009, at 21:08 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Adrian, > > I share Stef's enthusiasm for your suggested process. Thanks for > taking my prods about speed in the constructive spirit in which they > are intended. > > One concern though: is the benchmark of opening and closing browsers > able to give a realistic comparison of performance? Time to open a > debugger is probably worth noting, but the things that concern me most > with the browsers are poor response to keyboard input, time delays > selecting a new class or method, and (most notably) time required to > recompile a class; changing the category can take several seconds in > my experience. > > Re keyboard input, I suspect characters are being lost; in fairness, > that is difficult to test, because it requires typing quickly and > accurately. Still, Pharo strikes me as just not being able to keep > up, and it's worse with the package browser. You are of course > correct to keep free type and Shout on the list of suspects, though I > must say that Shout has always struck me as eerily fast. > > In short, I do not dispute that the difference is speed is small, > especially for the open/close that is benchmarked. However, there is > simply no "extra speed" to waste. Ideally, benchmarks should compare > the different browsers with and without shout and free type, rounded > corners, etc., and should separate selecting a new class and method. > > Some of my trouble might stem from using Linux for much of my work. > I cannot describe the extent of my frustration with Windows - I've had > it and then some. I'll stop the rant there (yes, I could go on for a > while yet<g>). However, I cannot in good conscience join the "Linux > is faster than Windows" crowd, and I am willing to consider the > possibility that the display handling in the linux vm (no accusations, > just in the interest of intellectual honesty) might have room for > improvement, and/or the design of X-windows might not help. > > Bill > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email] > ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:48 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in > Pharo? > > yes yes yes! > > Stef > On Jul 3, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > >> Hi Bill, >> >> Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to >> make progress at this front too ;) >> >> What we should start with is to identify which features makes it >> slow. >> >> I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify >> single features so that we know where to optimize or which features >> should better be disabled. >> >> What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the >> moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts >> and speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro). >> > Cheers, >> Adrian >> >> [1] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/ >> 009905. >> html >> >> >> On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >> >>> Stef, >>> >>> Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I >>> consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable >>> to try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact >>> it makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to >>> give some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of >>> help" >>> or >>> "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock >>> cycles at present. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: [hidden email] >>> [mailto:[hidden email] >>> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck >>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM >>> To: [hidden email] >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >>> Pharo? >>> >>> "Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package >>> support:..." >>> >>> Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K >>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >>> Stef, >>> >>> Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: >>> [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project- >>> boun >>> [hidden email] >>>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo- >>>> pro >>>> [hidden email] >>>> ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse >>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM >>> To: >>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>> [hidden email] >>> .inria.fr >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >>> Pharo? >>> >>> Hi oscar >>> >>> Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: >>> - dual browser >>> - class extensions >>> - traits >>> - refactoring >>> - icons >>> >>> Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear >>> what colin will integrate or not. >>> Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have >>> - dual browser >>> - class extensions >>> - traits >>> - icons >>> So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best >>> of the worlds. >>> Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful >>> browser is important and right now if the browser does not support >>> trait then we should remove traits from the image. >>> Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and >>> other package related functionality. >>> Stef >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Folks, >>>> >>>> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a >>>> bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser now. >>>> I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just >>>> gave me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser >>>> (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to >>>> switch between the two. >>>> >>>> Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) >>>> >>>> - on >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>>> [hidden email] >>>> e.inria.fr >>>>> >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>> [hidden email] >>> .inria.fr >>>> >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>> [hidden email] >>> .inria.fr >>>> >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: What will be the standard browser in Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Adrian Lienhard
> David and Alex made couple of speed improvements in OmniBrowser during
> yesterday's sprint. I will let them detail on what they achieved so > far. We did some benchmark and apparently there was some redundancy when updating. We also reduced the button at the top of the browser, apparently few people actually used them, and they consumed time to refresh. One of the result of this experiment, is that profiling tools in Squeak/Pharo are of a poor quality. There is definitely rooms for improvements, but this is getting complex. Cheers, Alexandre > > On Jul 4, 2009, at 21:08 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Adrian, >> >> I share Stef's enthusiasm for your suggested process. Thanks for >> taking my prods about speed in the constructive spirit in which they >> are intended. >> >> One concern though: is the benchmark of opening and closing browsers >> able to give a realistic comparison of performance? Time to open a >> debugger is probably worth noting, but the things that concern me >> most with the browsers are poor response to keyboard input, time >> delays selecting a new class or method, and (most notably) time >> required to recompile a class; changing the category can take >> several seconds in my experience. >> >> Re keyboard input, I suspect characters are being lost; in fairness, >> that is difficult to test, because it requires typing quickly and >> accurately. Still, Pharo strikes me as just not being able to keep >> up, and it's worse with the package browser. You are of course >> correct to keep free type and Shout on the list of suspects, though >> I must say that Shout has always struck me as eerily fast. >> >> In short, I do not dispute that the difference is speed is small, >> especially for the open/close that is benchmarked. However, there >> is simply no "extra speed" to waste. Ideally, benchmarks should >> compare the different browsers with and without shout and free type, >> rounded corners, etc., and should separate selecting a new class and >> method. >> >> Some of my trouble might stem from using Linux for much of my work. >> I cannot describe the extent of my frustration with Windows - I've >> had it and then some. I'll stop the rant there (yes, I could go on >> for a while yet<g>). However, I cannot in good conscience join the >> "Linux is faster than Windows" crowd, and I am willing to consider >> the possibility that the display handling in the linux vm (no >> accusations, just in the interest of intellectual honesty) might >> have room for improvement, and/or the design of X-windows might not >> help. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email] >> ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse >> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 4:48 AM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >> Pharo? >> >> yes yes yes! >> >> Stef >> On Jul 3, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: >> >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>> Performance is certainly important. Please don't stop bugging us to >>> make progress at this front too ;) >>> >>> What we should start with is to identify which features makes it >>> slow. >>> >>> I recently posted basic benchmarks [1], but we need to identify >>> single >>> features so that we know where to optimize or which features should >>> better be disabled. >>> >>> What would help is if you could tell us what exactly is slow (at the >>> moment I'm mainly working in the core image without freetype fonts >>> and >>> speed feels ok on my MacBook Pro). >>> >> Cheers, >>> Adrian >>> >>> [1] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/ >>> 009905. >>> html >>> >>> >>> On Jul 3, 2009, at 00:29 , Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >>> >>>> Stef, >>>> >>>> Understood, but since you appear to be leaving open things that I >>>> consider to be drastic (removing traits), it only seems reasonable >>>> to >>>> try the faster browser on some slower machines to see what impact >>>> it >>>> makes. It would not take too much prodding for me to be able to >>>> give >>>> some guidance along the lines of "not enough impact to be of help" >>>> or >>>> "well worth adopting." _Something_ is eating up a lot of clock >>>> cycles at present. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: [hidden email] >>>> [mailto:[hidden email] >>>> ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:25 PM >>>> To: [hidden email] >>>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >>>> Pharo? >>>> >>>> "Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package >>>> support:..." >>>> >>>> Notice the "ideally" and the "would" haha >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K >>>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >>>> Stef, >>>> >>>> Is there a way to get the fast browser, or an image with it loaded? >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: >>>> [hidden email]<mailto:pharo-project- >>>> boun >>>> [hidden email] >>>>> [mailto:[hidden email]<mailto:pharo- >>>>> pro >>>>> [hidden email] >>>>> ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:30 PM >>>> To: >>>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>>> [hidden email] >>>> .inria.fr >>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What will be the standard browser in >>>> Pharo? >>>> >>>> Hi oscar >>>> >>>> Ideally we would love to have a fast browser with package support: >>>> - dual browser >>>> - class extensions >>>> - traits >>>> - refactoring >>>> - icons >>>> >>>> Now apparently OBEnhancements was a bit dirty and this is not clear >>>> what colin will integrate or not. >>>> Lukas has a OB version which is fast but it does not have >>>> - dual browser >>>> - class extensions >>>> - traits >>>> - icons >>>> So david and lukas should talk a bit more and we could get the best >>>> of the worlds. >>>> Saturday we should have a discussion. Having a fast but powerful >>>> browser is important and right now if the browser does not support >>>> trait then we should remove traits from the image. >>>> Similarly we cannot work well without class extension support and >>>> other package related functionality. >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Folks, >>>>> >>>>> I am trying to port Squeak by Example to Pharo by Example. I am a >>>>> bit confused about what is suppose dto be the standard browser >>>>> now. >>>>> I thought it was the OB Package Browser, but Damien Cassou just >>>>> gave >>>>> me a new image where the browser is an OB System Browser >>>>> (Categories, not packages). I cannot even see any more how to >>>>> switch between the two. >>>>> >>>>> Can someone enlighten me? (Then I can explain it in the book.) >>>>> >>>>> - on >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>>>> [hidden email] >>>>> e.inria.fr >>>>>> >>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo- >>>>> project >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>>> [hidden email] >>>> .inria.fr >>>>> >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> [hidden email]<mailto:Pharo- >>>> [hidden email] >>>> .inria.fr >>>>> >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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