Where Is Smalltalk Weak?

     I'd also like to see actual numbers of programmers for the
languages mentioned. No one can ever tell me how many <trendy>
programmers there are. They just say their community is bigger than some
other one, and expect argument-by-innuendo to carry the day.


-C

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Craig Latta
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"As for server-side web frameworks, there are really only two options: <a href="http://seaside.st/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fseaside.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEDeRO337sjAiM92-mPqeMlFW8ToA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fseaside.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEDeRO337sjAiM92-mPqeMlFW8ToA';return true;">Seaside and <a href="http://www.aidaweb.si/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aidaweb.si%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFP1lTn_R1Y-BrSw5QFfdmANYg5HQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aidaweb.si%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFP1lTn_R1Y-BrSw5QFfdmANYg5HQ';return true;">Aida/Web. Seaside is easily the most popular of the two, and for good reasons"

There is Iliad too. Some of us worked with Seaside for years and switched to Iliad.

"Smalltalk execution is generally slower than in many languages, such as Java"

Do you have any references supporting that?

Cheers,

Hernán

2015-02-19 10:13 GMT-03:00 Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="Lqu9yH_FwU8J" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...>:

<a href="https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/where-is-smalltalk-weak/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F02%2F18%2Fwhere-is-smalltalk-weak%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHCMBnNj0c885y7zYtQQ9nYgGr2xA';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F02%2F18%2Fwhere-is-smalltalk-weak%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHCMBnNj0c885y7zYtQQ9nYgGr2xA';return true;">https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/where-is-smalltalk-weak/

Well, you knew we couldn't avoid this article forever.

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> > I'd also like to see actual numbers of programmers for the
> > languages mentioned. No one can ever tell me how many <trendy>
> > programmers there are. They just say their community is bigger than
> > some other one, and expect argument-by-innuendo to carry the day.
>
> <a href="http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/smalltalk.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbenchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org%2Fu32%2Fsmalltalk.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNENrl5Ne6b5srSHsqKdzwWYWDp2Bw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbenchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org%2Fu32%2Fsmalltalk.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNENrl5Ne6b5srSHsqKdzwWYWDp2Bw';return true;">http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/smalltalk.php

     Eh? I see nothing there about community sizes, just more benchmark
data of dubious significance.


-C

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     I'd also like to see actual numbers of programmers for the
languages mentioned. No one can ever tell me how many <trendy>
programmers there are. They just say their community is bigger than some
other one, and expect argument-by-innuendo to carry the day.


-C

--
Craig Latta
<a href="http://netjam.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fnetjam.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHoUTVuigDZc3VJwKh0mD3UUNsPOQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fnetjam.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHoUTVuigDZc3VJwKh0mD3UUNsPOQ';return true;">netjam.org
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Mailing-list volume could be low but that does not imply is not a valid option.

Another thing is that you want to promote only Seaside, which weakens your claims.

Besides, I would like to read about the "good reasons". Good or bad means nothing to me, except your point of view.

2015-02-20 16:11 GMT-03:00 Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="HAz0HzEdnWkJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...>:

The Iliad project looks pretty dead to me, like Strongtalk.

On Friday, 20 February 2015 09:24:01 UTC-5, Hernán Morales Durand wrote:

"As for server-side web frameworks, there are really only two options: <a href="http://seaside.st/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fseaside.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEDeRO337sjAiM92-mPqeMlFW8ToA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fseaside.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEDeRO337sjAiM92-mPqeMlFW8ToA';return true;">Seaside and <a href="http://www.aidaweb.si/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aidaweb.si%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFP1lTn_R1Y-BrSw5QFfdmANYg5HQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aidaweb.si%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFP1lTn_R1Y-BrSw5QFfdmANYg5HQ';return true;">Aida/Web. Seaside is easily the most popular of the two, and for good reasons"

There is Iliad too. Some of us worked with Seaside for years and switched to Iliad.

"Smalltalk execution is generally slower than in many languages, such as Java"

Do you have any references supporting that?

Cheers,

Hernán

2015-02-19 10:13 GMT-03:00 Richard Eng <[hidden email]>:

<a href="https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/where-is-smalltalk-weak/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F02%2F18%2Fwhere-is-smalltalk-weak%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHCMBnNj0c885y7zYtQQ9nYgGr2xA';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F2015%2F02%2F18%2Fwhere-is-smalltalk-weak%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHCMBnNj0c885y7zYtQQ9nYgGr2xA';return true;">https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/where-is-smalltalk-weak/

Well, you knew we couldn't avoid this article forever.

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Excerpts from Hernán Morales Durand's message of 2015-02-20 15:23:59 +0100:
> "Smalltalk execution is generally slower than in many languages, such as
> Java"

i think speed comparisons can be quite subjective, especially when it comes to java.
if you want to avoid rubbing someone the wrong way i think it may be wise to
compare only to python et. al. anyone who wants to compare smalltalk to java can
just base it off python to java.

greetings, martin.

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> > I'd also like to see actual numbers of programmers for the
> > languages mentioned. No one can ever tell me how many <trendy>
> > programmers there are. They just say their community is bigger than
> > some other one, and expect argument-by-innuendo to carry the day.
>
> I rather doubt that there are numbers for community size. It's very
> hard to quantify. We can only say that the communities for the "main"
> or tier 1 languages (eg, Java, JavaScript, PHP, Python) are large,
> for tier 2 (eg, Scala, Haskell, Go) not so large, and the rest are
> small, based on a general sense of the industry.

     Well, that's unacceptable. :)


-C

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First of all, I have a feeling of distrust about the benchmarks game project. To me, a benchmark measuring only interpreter execution/GC (artificially leveled to "look the same" in all languages) is totally misleading today, after all the research done in program comprehension and software engineering. But anyway just for fun I picked the fasta because is something I know. BTW the benchmark is non-sense (I was expecting an OO benchmark) despite all the jargon they try to use to terrify non-bioinformaticians. This is the Java code:

<a href="http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/program.php?test=fasta&amp;lang=java&amp;id=2" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbenchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org%2Fu32%2Fprogram.php%3Ftest%3Dfasta%26lang%3Djava%26id%3D2\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHktiekFh0CblxHHnbNh9MPwOQfLQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbenchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org%2Fu32%2Fprogram.php%3Ftest%3Dfasta%26lang%3Djava%26id%3D2\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHktiekFh0CblxHHnbNh9MPwOQfLQ';return true;">http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/program.php?test=fasta&lang=java&id=2

Now I translated the fasta benchmark from VW (<a href="http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/program.php?test=fasta&amp;lang=vw" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbenchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org%2Fu32%2Fprogram.php%3Ftest%3Dfasta%26lang%3Dvw\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFdAVHue6eoxCodLgYgmg-1lVwj_g';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbenchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org%2Fu32%2Fprogram.php%3Ftest%3Dfasta%26lang%3Dvw\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFdAVHue6eoxCodLgYgmg-1lVwj_g';return true;">http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/program.php?test=fasta&lang=vw) to Squeak/Pharo in a package named BioBenchmarks, you can download it from the BioSmalltalk repository - <a href="http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~hernan/BioSmalltalk" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smalltalkhub.com%2F%23!%2F~hernan%2FBioSmalltalk\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEqx9yxf_8nhFrh6VzkZ1ldmrcA_Q';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smalltalkhub.com%2F%23!%2F~hernan%2FBioSmalltalk\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEqx9yxf_8nhFrh6VzkZ1ldmrcA_Q';return true;">http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~hernan/BioSmalltalk (you don't need to load the BioSmalltalk to load BioBenchmarks)

There are differences in the benchmarks. For good or bad, the Smalltalk code writes to stdout MultiByteFileStream. The Java codes as-is writes to console where the equivalent should be FileOutputStream. The Java implementation is attached in this e-mail for those who want to check, I just changed to write to a file stream and renaming the main function to be:

    public static void main(String[] args) throws IOException {
      for (int i=0; i<1; ++i){
         System.gc();
         long t1 = System.nanoTime();
         fastaStart(args);
         long t2 = System.nanoTime();
         System.err.println( String.format( "%.6f", (t2 - t1) * 1e-9 ) );        
      }
    }

A thing I couldn't find is how they really measure memory used (<a href="http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/play.html#memory" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbenchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org%2Fplay.html%23memory\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF8Yw8E0pbkPZmUW5RtRA8k57N5kg';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbenchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org%2Fplay.html%23memory\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF8Yw8E0pbkPZmUW5RtRA8k57N5kg';return true;">http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/play.html#memory but which tool? a command line?), a common complaint for Java.

For Smalltalk I used:

Smalltalk garbageCollect.
Time millisecondsToRun: [ BioBenchmarkTests fasta: 250000 ]

Pharo 3.0 " 9704 "

Squeak 4.5 "  10215 "

With Java using System.currentTimeMillis(); answer 0,000000

so System.nanoTime() = 0,098415 which is 0,000000098 milliseconds.

The Time Profiler tree reports "primitives" consuming almost 80% of execution but I don't know the VM details to explain such huge differences.

Hernán

2015-02-21 17:37 GMT-03:00 Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="dNKlPDBd5OsJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...>:

Not so subjective:  <a href="http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/smalltalk.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbenchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org%2Fu32%2Fsmalltalk.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNENrl5Ne6b5srSHsqKdzwWYWDp2Bw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbenchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org%2Fu32%2Fsmalltalk.php\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNENrl5Ne6b5srSHsqKdzwWYWDp2Bw';return true;">http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/smalltalk.php

No matter what you may think of these benchmarks, they are the only "scientific" evidence we have and they do provide a reasonable indicator of relative performance. Not "proof" but indicator.

The article clearly states that Smalltalk performance is comparable to Python, Ruby, Perl, and PHP.

On Friday, 20 February 2015 09:37:17 UTC-5, Martin Bähr wrote:

Excerpts from Hernán Morales Durand's message of 2015-02-20 15:23:59 +0100:
> "Smalltalk execution is generally slower than in many languages, such as
> Java"

i think speed comparisons can be quite subjective, especially when it comes to java.
if you want to avoid rubbing someone the wrong way i think it may be wise to
compare only to python et. al. anyone who wants to compare smalltalk to java can
just base it off python to java.

greetings, martin.

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