Where should I add this improvements of the legacy IDE?

On Feb 1, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Manfred Kröhnert <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Sebastian

On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 3:24 PM, sebastian <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ah well.. if you are asking for a scientific study with data to prove it, I don’t owe you one but we could talk about funding one if you really have that interest :)

Interesting answer.

But I won't go into details about such 'counter arguments'...

You asked about feedback and now you are bashing the feedback?

Please stay constructive.

In my last email I was only saying that arguments like "this is wrong!" are very mood if you don't provide some backup for a statement.

 

Lower productivity gets concrete really fast when is you who pay for it. That is persuasive enough to me.

Okay, but what is it that makes you less productive?

Is it about too many clicks you have to perform, too many keystrokes to remember, too much lag in the UI, cursing about finding the right information?

We can only improve Helios if we know what makes it less productive.

 

So as I said in the article, I have the clear impression that fixing the Legacy IDE (or Classic IDE as Philippe suggested to call it) is way easier than fixing Helios.

Right, but what needs to be improved in Helios to make it usable to you?

That is the only thing I am asking.

Actually, I support your ideas for improving Classic IDE.

But it would be even greater if Helios were be brought to a point where it is equally usable to you.

 

Even fixing the main Helios issues would not convert me as opening one IDE versus the other is comparing something with a sub-second response versus a pop-up that makes a full load of an extra amber application. That’s a deal-breaker to me.

Cool, this is a concrete example about what makes Helios less usable to you.

For me, it doesn't make a huge difference, since the IDE is only opened once during startup.

However, making Helios load faster and/or in-frame seems to be something worth investigating if this is of concern to you and other IDE users.

 

That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t enjoy seeing people improving Helios, it only means that I (sebastian) decided to route any effort about IDE to the legacy/classic IDE. 

If you or anyone wants to make Helios better, he/she has my (passive) support

Best,

Manfred

 

On Feb 1, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Manfred Kröhnert <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Sebastian,

thanks for writing down your thoughts.

But after reading your article it is still not clear to me what issues you are having with Helios.

Your statement about 'lower productivity' is not a very concrete meassure :-)

Maybe it would make sense to address concrete issues and improve Helios in that direction (I am pro Helios).

Overall, I don't think that it is possible to support two IDE's with the current amount of contributors.

Best,

Manfred

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Sebastian Sastre <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi guys,

this is a bit about how I feel on the current state of Amber Smalltalk development experience:

https://medium.com/@sebastianconcpt/improving-the-amber-experience-26764d5d578

and some issues:

• Typography issues
• Poor contrast issues
• Focus issues
• Lack of search keyboard shortcut
• Tab close area too small
• SUnit button alignment
• Horizontal arrow keys should change the pane in focus (on Browser and SUnit)
• Vertical arrow keys should change the selected list item when focus is in a list pane
• Save button disabled on pristine
• Class browse shortcut
• Drag and drop to categorise methods
• Marking changed packages
• Select and change theme easily and persist the preference on localStorage
• Change theme to be dark by default

and main question being: I'm alone in this (should I fork and do) or not (should I commit to official repo)?

thanks for letting me know

 

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On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 8:54 PM, sebastian <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="uB5hZbopz9oJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">sebastia...@...> wrote:

On Feb 1, 2015, at 1:48 PM, Manfred Kröhnert <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="uB5hZbopz9oJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">mkroeh...@...> wrote:

Hi Sebastian

On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 3:24 PM, sebastian <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="uB5hZbopz9oJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">sebastia...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ah well.. if you are asking for a scientific study with data to prove it, I don’t owe you one but we could talk about funding one if you really have that interest :)

Interesting answer.

But I won't go into details about such 'counter arguments'...

You asked about feedback and now you are bashing the feedback?

Please stay constructive.

Yes I don’t want to inhibit your feedback with my answers. We shouldn’t confuse bashing with provocation :) I found provocation stimulating. For me the widely positive output is more important than being constructive locally.

Don't confuse poor argumentation with provocation.

 

In my last email I was only saying that arguments like "this is wrong!" are very mood if you don't provide some backup for a statement.

 

Lower productivity gets concrete really fast when is you who pay for it. That is persuasive enough to me.

Okay, but what is it that makes you less productive?

Is it about too many clicks you have to perform, too many keystrokes to remember, too much lag in the UI, cursing about finding the right information?

We can only improve Helios if we know what makes it less productive.

Good questions, as a start, see all the problems that currently Legacy IDE is suffering because Helios is also suffering many of those too. Plus others. Making a usability report would be interesting. Shouldn’t be only based on 1 user experience but at least 4 users.

 

So as I said in the article, I have the clear impression that fixing the Legacy IDE (or Classic IDE as Philippe suggested to call it) is way easier than fixing Helios.

Right, but what needs to be improved in Helios to make it usable to you?

That is the only thing I am asking.

Actually, I support your ideas for improving Classic IDE.

But it would be even greater if Helios were be brought to a point where it is equally usable to you.

Helios would gain a second chance to try for me if it becomes as friendly to the mouse as it is to keyboard and instant opening. Also those sequences of keypresses, if they are the only way to do things that’s a big no-no.

Now we are getting somewhere.

Why not provide such an answer in the first place?

Best,

Manfred

 

Even fixing the main Helios issues would not convert me as opening one IDE versus the other is comparing something with a sub-second response versus a pop-up that makes a full load of an extra amber application. That’s a deal-breaker to me.

Cool, this is a concrete example about what makes Helios less usable to you.

Check the list I’ve made for legacy and you’ll  certainly have more concrete examples of what doesn’t make Helios work for me.

For me, it doesn't make a huge difference, since the IDE is only opened once during startup.

This is something I can’t even understand. In my experience too often any app needs to reload page during the development cycle. Dozens of times per session.

However, making Helios load faster and/or in-frame seems to be something worth investigating if this is of concern to you and other IDE users.

Let me know if you want me to test any improvement, I’d gladly do so

 

That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t enjoy seeing people improving Helios, it only means that I (sebastian) decided to route any effort about IDE to the legacy/classic IDE. 

If you or anyone wants to make Helios better, he/she has my (passive) support

Best,

Manfred

 

On Feb 1, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Manfred Kröhnert <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="uB5hZbopz9oJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">mkroeh...@...> wrote:

Hello Sebastian,

thanks for writing down your thoughts.

But after reading your article it is still not clear to me what issues you are having with Helios.

Your statement about 'lower productivity' is not a very concrete meassure :-)

Maybe it would make sense to address concrete issues and improve Helios in that direction (I am pro Helios).

Overall, I don't think that it is possible to support two IDE's with the current amount of contributors.

Best,

Manfred

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Sebastian Sastre <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="uB5hZbopz9oJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">sebastia...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi guys,

this is a bit about how I feel on the current state of Amber Smalltalk development experience:

<a href="https://medium.com/@sebastianconcpt/improving-the-amber-experience-26764d5d578" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2F%40sebastianconcpt%2Fimproving-the-amber-experience-26764d5d578\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE5yY9PfPdfIieQs4feu4URDqYOBg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2F%40sebastianconcpt%2Fimproving-the-amber-experience-26764d5d578\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE5yY9PfPdfIieQs4feu4URDqYOBg';return true;">https://medium.com/@sebastianconcpt/improving-the-amber-experience-26764d5d578

and some issues:

• Typography issues
• Poor contrast issues
• Focus issues
• Lack of search keyboard shortcut
• Tab close area too small
• SUnit button alignment
• Horizontal arrow keys should change the pane in focus (on Browser and SUnit)
• Vertical arrow keys should change the selected list item when focus is in a list pane
• Save button disabled on pristine
• Class browse shortcut
• Drag and drop to categorise methods
• Marking changed packages
• Select and change theme easily and persist the preference on localStorage
• Change theme to be dark by default

and main question being: I'm alone in this (should I fork and do) or not (should I commit to official repo)?

thanks for letting me know

 

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