Which persistence solution to use?

Hi,

up to now I only used Seaside with temporary data or things stored "in
the image".

Now I need to store data permanently (and if possible outside the
image). Which persistence solutions do exist which work well in
combination with Seaside. Having a Dolphin Background I'm comfortable
with some OR mappers and OmniBase.

Which other solution do exist? I read some stuff on Magma but I'm not
quite sure how recent the integration in Seaside is.

Any pointers?

CU,

Udo

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

On Friday 11 May 2007 5:03 am, Udo Schneider wrote:
> Hi,
>
> up to now I only used Seaside with temporary data or things stored "in
> the image".
>
> Now I need to store data permanently (and if possible outside the
> image).
Why "outside the image"? Do you need to get access to the data from something
other than Seaside?

> Which persistence solutions do exist which work well in
> combination with Seaside.
GemStone just announced a version that supports Seaside. GemStone is a dialect
of Smalltalk that has built-in persistence. See the following for more
information:
http://seaside.gemstone.com/
http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/


James Foster
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

I believe Udo refers to more permanent data storage, such as Magma.

Regards,
John.

www.pinesoft.co.uk

James Foster wrote:


Pinesoft Computers are registered in England, Registered number: 2914825. Registered office: 266-268 High Street, Waltham Cross, Herts, EN8 7EA



This message has been scanned for viruses by BlackSpider MailControl - www.blackspider.com

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

I believe GemStone/S being the full database product that it is you
can't get much more permanent than that, unless of course you mean
engraving data in slabs of granite with diamond-tipped drill, which
Seaside doesn't support yet ;)

-Boris

--
+1.604.689.0322
DeepCove Labs Ltd.
4th floor 595 Howe Street
Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5
http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4

[hidden email]

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE

This email is intended only for the persons named in the message
header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is
private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender and delete the entire message including any
attachments.

Thank you.
"in a
> dialect
> > of Smalltalk that has built-in persistence. See the following for
more not 2914825. _______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

I've never used Gemstone, infact the first I've heard of it has been
from this mailing list.
That's what I get for sticking my oar in :)

Regards,
John.

www.pinesoft.co.uk

Boris Popov wrote:
> I believe GemStone/S being the full database product that it is you
> can't get much more permanent than that, unless of course you mean
> engraving data in slabs of granite with diamond-tipped drill, which
> Seaside doesn't support yet ;)
>
> -Boris
>
>  



Pinesoft Computers are registered in England, Registered number: 2914825. Registered office: 266-268 High Street, Waltham Cross, Herts, EN8 7EA



This message has been scanned for viruses by BlackSpider MailControl - www.blackspider.com

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

That's why I think it's such a great idea for them to create a sandbox
environment that people like yourself can sign up for and play around
with. The whole concept of developing a web application with free
persistence tickles me just the right way, very exciting.

Cheers!

-Boris

--
+1.604.689.0322
DeepCove Labs Ltd.
4th floor 595 Howe Street
Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5
http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4

[hidden email]

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE

This email is intended only for the persons named in the message
header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is
private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender and delete the entire message including any
attachments.

Thank you.
2914825. _______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

On 11-May-07, at 9:01 AM, Boris Popov wrote:

> I believe GemStone/S being the full database product that it is you
> can't get much more permanent than that, unless of course you mean
> engraving data in slabs of granite with diamond-tipped drill, which
> Seaside doesn't support yet ;)

Sadly this isn't terribly permanent; if it gets left lying around in  
the open it will erode, if left in a secret cave it will eventually  
subduct and get mixed back into the mantle, if put into deep orbit it  
will still slowly erode from cosmic ray ablation and even if stored  
inside the event  horizon of a large black hole it will eventually  
fall prey to the end of the universe as protons decay etc.

On the other hand there is the old saying about 'spinning bits never  
die' so just label your file something like 'Br1tn3yN00d.pic' and  
toss it into the net and it will probably be available in around  
10^42 places in a dozen universes from now.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Oxymorons: Software documentation


_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Hi Udo!

        if you don't need concurrency of more than a few clients and ACID is
not mandatory then maybe is good for you to evaluate ImageSegments.

Cheers,

Sebastian

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

James Foster wrote:
> Why "outside the image"? Do you need to get access to the data from something
> other than Seaside?
Not really. The reason is to be able to share the data between multiple
running Squeak/Seaside instances.

> http://seaside.gemstone.com/
> http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/
Saw that and was quite impressed to be honest. What about availibilty?
.... and pricing!

Thanks,

Udo

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Hi Sebastian,

> if you don't need concurrency of more than a few clients and ACID is
> not mandatory then maybe is good for you to evaluate ImageSegments.
I'll take a look into that. I am aware of ImageSegments but never
thought of using them that way. This might even be a very good solution
as the datasets itself a quite seperated. I'll just need a was to make
sure, that only one Squeak instance accesses it at a time.

Thanks,

Udo

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

You should give a try to Magma, you will probably like it and it has
many features that the other non comertial OODBs don´t.  And it´s all
implemented in Squeak.

http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2665



On 5/13/07, Udo Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote: _______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

On Sunday 13 May 2007 2:43 am, Udo Schneider wrote:
> James Foster wrote:
> > Why "outside the image"? Do you need to get access to the data from
> > something other than Seaside?
>
> Not really. The reason is to be able to share the data between multiple
> running Squeak/Seaside instances.
Why do you need multiple instances? Is one instance unable to handle the
requests?
>
> > http://seaside.gemstone.com/
> > http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/
>
> Saw that and was quite impressed to be honest. What about availibilty?
> .... and pricing!
Availability was announced as Q3 (we are aiming for ESUG).
Pricing is "no cost" for a database under 4 GB.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Udo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

2007/5/13, James Foster <[hidden email]>:
> On Sunday 13 May 2007 2:43 am, Udo Schneider wrote:
> > James Foster wrote:
> > > Why "outside the image"? Do you need to get access to the data from
> > > something other than Seaside?
> >
> > Not really. The reason is to be able to share the data between multiple
> > running Squeak/Seaside instances.
> Why do you need multiple instances? Is one instance unable to handle the
> requests?

Scaling, computer with more than one CPU/core, failover, ....

Cheers
Philippe
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

On Sunday 13 May 2007 8:52 am, Philippe Marschall wrote:
Hi Philippe,

Are you answering on behalf of Udo, or are you just providing a general list
of reasons why someone might want to run multiple instances? Are you making a
distinction between "scaling" and "computer with more than one CPU/core" or
are the two reasons equivalent? How many pages per second are your serving
such that one instance is inadequate?

James
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Its not just about throughout though, there's reducing thread contention (rsa auth calls take 3 seconds where vm locks up and I want other users to be less affected by this, so we spread them around X images) as well as fault tolerance (one vm goes down, others are there to let you log in again, and some users aren't affected at all). Are you against data sharing? Isn't that what GemStone is for? ;)

Cheers!

-Boris
(Sent from a BlackBerry)

----- Original Message -----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
To: Seaside - general discussion <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sun May 13 12:16:24 2007
Subject: Re: [Seaside] Re: Which persistence solution to use?

On Sunday 13 May 2007 8:52 am, Philippe Marschall wrote:
> 2007/5/13, James Foster <[hidden email]>:
> > On Sunday 13 May 2007 2:43 am, Udo Schneider wrote:
> > > James Foster wrote:
> > > > Why "outside the image"? Do you need to get access to the data from
> > > > something other than Seaside?
> > >
> > > Not really. The reason is to be able to share the data between multiple
> > > running Squeak/Seaside instances.
> >
> > Why do you need multiple instances? Is one instance unable to handle the
> > requests?
>
> Scaling, computer with more than one CPU/core, failover, ....
>
> Cheers
> Philippe

Hi Philippe,

Are you answering on behalf of Udo, or are you just providing a general list
of reasons why someone might want to run multiple instances? Are you making a
distinction between "scaling" and "computer with more than one CPU/core" or
are the two reasons equivalent? How many pages per second are your serving
such that one instance is inadequate?

James
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

2007/5/13, James Foster <[hidden email]>:
The later. Besides that Squeak Images can get from time to time in a
state ... how shall I put that whithout using the f-word?
- They can lock up for no particular reason (either at 100% or 0% CPU usage)
- They can lock up or crash because of memory/garbage collection problems
- The ui process can lock up for no particular reason
- WeakArray finalization can happen can block the image for 20 minutes
- Semaphore >> #cirtical: might not exit (although the block is finished)
- low space signals (again with ImageSegments)
- you name it

> Are you making a
> distinction between "scaling" and "computer with more than one CPU/core" or
> are the two reasons equivalent?

Doesn't really matter for Squeak.

> How many pages per second are your serving
> such that one instance is inadequate?

It's interesting already earlier. As soon as you have an incoming
request when an old one isn't already answered and you have free
processing power (a cpu or core) you can use this to answer it faster
and increase the responsiveness of your application.

Cheers
Philippe

> James
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Hi Udo,

I am a definite smalltalk newby, but have you looked at GOODS?

http://www.garret.ru/~knizhnik/goods.html

Avi wrote a squeak interface for it that you can use with seaside:

http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3492

And there's a howto using this to implement seaside authentication:

http://www.techgame.net/projects/Seaside/wiki/UsingGOODS

Cheers,

Mark.

On 5/11/07, Udo Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:

--
Mark Aufflick
 e: [hidden email]
 w: mark.aufflick.com
 p: +61 438 700 647
 f: +61 2 9436 4737
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Ramiro Diaz Trepat wrote:
> You should give a try to Magma, you will probably like it and it has
> many features that the other non comertial OODBs don´t.  And it´s all
> implemented in Squeak.
I'll take a look into that. Thanks for the pointer. How integrated is
Magma in Seaside in terms of dependency of versions? Can I mix any
Seaside version with any Magma version or are there some kine of
"recomended" combinations?

CU,

Udo

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

James Foster wrote:
> Why do you need multiple instances? Is one instance unable to handle the
> requests?
# of requests is only the surface of the problem. The squeak instances
are doing some heavy picture manipulating work in the background.
Although this is done via C code (FFI and InterpreterPlugins) this is
still quite slow. From first testing I'd go for 20 Sessions max per CPU
(P4 2 Ghz). So that's the bottleneck. Hence the idea to put the DB on a
shared NAS to keep as much CPU Power on the frontend as possible.

>>> http://seaside.gemstone.com/
>>> http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/
>> Saw that and was quite impressed to be honest. What about availibilty?
>> .... and pricing!
> Availability was announced as Q3 (we are aiming for ESUG).
> Pricing is "no cost" for a database under 4 GB.
Now that's very interesting. Does GS allow one to seperate into an DB
backend and DB frontend? I mean having all the data shared in one DB and
having the GS frontends doing the Seaside and local/temp storage stuff?

Regards,

Udo

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Hi Mark,

> I am a definite smalltalk newby, but have you looked at GOODS?
I took a look at GOODS quite a while ago on VWNC. It looked quite
impressive but also quite hard to learn (the meta model) and to maintain
(Maybe this changed meanwhile). My main reason for not looking into any
ORM is the fact that the application I'm working on neither depends on
existing relational data nor will be in the future. So using an OODBMS
simply "feels" better (just personal preference). However I consider
GOODS definitely an option where access to existing relational data is
needed or might be needed later on.

CU,

Udo

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside