Why Aren't People Using Smalltalk?

Hi Richard,

I am just wondering why you are discussing the philosophy of Pharo on the Amber mailing list?

Best Manfred

Am 05.09.2015 06:30 schrieb "Richard Eng" <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="xMQcniG3AAAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">horrido...@...>:

If you think of "Smalltalk" as Smalltalk-80, then breaking away from Smalltalk-80 can legitimately mean that you are no longer Smalltalk, yes. I'm not sure that matters, though. Does anyone really care??? What's the ultimate objective? To be not Smalltalk? To become more popular?

On Friday, 4 September 2015 21:17:18 UTC-4, Martin Bähr wrote:

Excerpts from Richard Eng's message of 2015-09-05 01:28:25 +0200:
> >From a technical position, this doesn't make much sense. There is no one
> "Smalltalk," but rather a variety of dialects where :each "Smalltalk" chose
> to extend itself and make improvements to the language *and the tools*. So
> how is Pharo's evolution different from the splintering of Smalltalk into
> VisualWorks, VA Smalltalk, GemStone/S, Dolphin, etc.? Perhaps in the more
> distant future, Pharo's improvements will be so far ahead of the field that
> it might as well be a new language. Perhaps. But for now and the
> foreseeable future, Pharo looks to all the world like just another dialect.

that is true, but Pharo (and Squeak) are the only dialects available as Free
Software and Open Source. if there is a smalltalk dialect that is poised for
popularity, then it is one of those two, and none of the non-free ones.

> >From a PR standpoint, however, I think Pharo is trying to separate itself
> from Smalltalk. It's not working, because you can't fool the public. If the
> fundamental language syntax is the same (and it is), and if the live coding
> & debugging environment is *largely* the same (and it is), then people will
> recognize it as (a dialect of) Smalltalk. Period. End of story.

i believe Pharo is trying to separate itself from pressure to remain compatible
to smalltalk-80 standards. if you want to innovate, sometimes you need to break
the rules. whether doing so is a good idea or not, can only be found after
trying it.

greetings, martin.

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Finite games have a definite beginning and ending. They are played with the goal of winning. A finite game is resolved within the context of its rules, with a winner of the contest being declared and receiving a victory. The rules exist to ensure the game is finite. Examples are debates, sports, receiving a degree from an educational institution, belonging to a society, or engaging in war. Beginning to participate in a finite game requires conscious thought, and is voluntary; continued participation in a round of the game is involuntary. Even exiting the game early must be provided for by the rules. This may be likened to a zero-sum game (though not all finite games are literally zero sum, in that the sum of positive outcomes can vary).

Infinite games, on the other hand, do not have a knowable beginning or ending. They are played with the goal of continuing play and sometimes with a purpose of bringing more players into the game. An infinite game continues play, for the sake of play. If the game is approaching resolution because of the rules of play, the rules must be changed to allow continued play. The rules exist to ensure the game is infinite. The only known example is life. Beginning to participate in an infinite game may be involuntary, in that it doesn't require conscious thought. Continuing participation in the current round of game-play is voluntary. "It is an invariable principle of all play, finite and infinite, that whoever plays, plays freely" 

Euan M. wrote:
> This point, over everything else
> "there is no one "Smalltalk" to which you can develop supporting
> libraries. (There is one Java; there is one C++; there is one Python"

You know, there is not one browser, but JS works (yes, it has a
standard; but Smalltalk also has one).

If you want to test your libs cross-browser / cross-device, there is
SauceLabs / BrowserStack / TestingBot.

There should definitely be similar thing for all possible Smalltalk
dialects. Including showing banners on github / SmalltalkHub similar to
those of SauveLabs, showing how the project fared on all the tested
platforms.

I even think Smalltalk-supporting foundations all over should fund
creation and maintenance of something like this. Plus creating some e2e
helper similar to WebDriver protocol for browsers, allowing to save
image / load image / restart VM / execute code remotely, similarly to
what WebDriver allows to drive web pages.

>
> Development language platforms are hugely affected to the network
> effect. The more other people who use it, the more useful and valuable
> it becomes, to existing users and potential users. So more people use it.
>
> Ruby has *one* large community.  Java another. Python another.    This
> means that developers target "Ruby" or "Python" or "Java".  As opposed
> to targetting "Joe Bloggs's fork of Python of 1997", or "Emily Watkins's
> fork of Ruby of 2003", etc.
>
> This gives higher confidence that other libraries and frameworks will
> work for your project
>     - because they are targetted at the same language framework that you
> are targetting.
>     - because with a larger community comes a larger pool of
> contributors to any particular library or framework, which means the
> libraries and frameworks have a better chance of being feature-complete
> or near feature complete, tested and quality assured, and documented
>     - because with a larger community, it becomes more worthwhile for
> third parties (in the widest sense) to target helpful additions, like
> tutorial guides, and books, and even more libraries.
>     - because with a larger community there are more people available
> and willing to give help and advice, at more times of day and night, and
> in more geographic locations and in more natural languages.
>
> And here are some graphs so show the state of play -
> <a href="http://smalltalkinsmallsteps.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/mindshare-of-smalltalk-in-development.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://smalltalkinsmallsteps.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/mindshare-of-smalltalk-in-development.html&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://smalltalkinsmallsteps.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/mindshare-of-smalltalk-in-development.html&#39;;return true;">http://smalltalkinsmallsteps.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/mindshare-of-smalltalk-in-development.html
> The graphs compare all Smalltalks combined, with Ruby.  And
> all-Smalltalks-combined and Ruby. against JavaScript
>
> I'm not sanguine about our chances because we seem to be in denial about
> three things:
> that the size of the community matters to how useful Smalltalk is over time;
> that the size of the community matters to how fast Smalltalk improves;
> and that the size of the community matters to how feature-complete
> Smalltalk becomes or manages to remain, over time.
>
> Cheers,
>      EuanM
>
> On Saturday, 5 September 2015 00:39:32 UTC+1, Richard Eng wrote:
>
>     The most critical thing is probably the dearth of Smalltalk
>     "libraries." Time and again, developers complain about the lack of
>     libraries and frameworks. Unfortunately, this is difficult to remedy
>     because there is no one "Smalltalk" to which you can develop
>     supporting libraries. (There is one Java; there is one C++; there is
>     one Python – at least, if you work your way around the different
>     versions.)
>
>     If Pharo can become the "hero" Smalltalk dialect that surpasses all
>     others in terms of popularity, then there is hope here. A /de facto/
>     standard would allow libraries to be written and easily ported,
>     perhaps gently "coercing" other Smalltalks to "fall in line."
>     However, I am not sanguine.
>
> --

Well, I cannot answer the question "Why are not people using smalltalk", but could tell you "Why    I    am not using smalltalk".

 

I find Smalltalk in general and Pharo in particular a very smart and interesting language and environment. I like it VERY MUCH. But to use for a "semi-production" system I need more. I started developing a medium size project to test the system capabilities. I've had problems due to the fact that I write in Spanish, and Pharo has problems from time to time with unicode characters. You cannot file-out a class if its name or a method has an accent somewhere. I cannot search for past changes for the same reason. It's annoying for me and a real problem sometimes.

And, on the other side, I'm very constrained to the Pharo ecosystem. There is no library (serious library, I mean) to create PDF files or to create barcodes, just to mention a couple of important points. If you move to the Java world, you have libraries for everything. I don't like Java at all, but that makes a difference....

And don't forget the documentation. It's old and incomplete. You have to google all the time or use the bright Visualworks user manuals (thanks Cincom!) just to find basic methods to use on collections. And nothing about the new developments (Slots, for instance). Or maybe it's me, that don't know how to find it. In the end it's the same: if the documentation is too hard to find for me, it's useless.

 

Depends on the use case as always.

JS is nice, Angular is nice, Python is nice.

Then your work with these things on a business problem and it takes a lot of time to get things done.

Well, for Angular of course, this is great for frontend.

But for backend logic etc, mmmh, not quite.

But I do not care about popularity, I care about being a better programmer and getting things done.

So, using the other tech is fine. And I just notice that I am better at using it just because I am using Pharo as well.

Being at the right place at the right time with a network. Indeed.

And also, being busy with technology that matters to you because it is just so nice and sweet.

My view is that there is this nebula of technologies and my own need of a pivot point.

This pivot/reference point is Pharo since a couple years and for years to come.

This is not exclusive vs other tech. And why chase for popularity/mindshare? As long as the game can continue on the Pharo front, and business can happen using it, all is good.

Markus pointed me to an awesome book that really is key to understanding the Pharo trajectory, seeing Pharo as of the infinite game kind:

<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFinite_and_Infinite_Games\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEzmcIpnr2A5MfM_7aO2EUdxvCeCg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFinite_and_Infinite_Games\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEzmcIpnr2A5MfM_7aO2EUdxvCeCg&#39;;return true;">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games

Finite games have a definite beginning and ending. They are played with the goal of winning. A finite game is resolved within the context of its rules, with a winner of the contest being declared and receiving a victory. The rules exist to ensure the game is finite. Examples are debates, sports, receiving a degree from an educational institution, belonging to a society, or engaging in war. Beginning to participate in a finite game requires conscious thought, and is voluntary; continued participation in a round of the game is involuntary. Even exiting the game early must be provided for by the rules. This may be likened to a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game" title="Zero-sum game" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FZero-sum_game\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGfUQUUJzUvCyKbLRsYjKjA3xFuYA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FZero-sum_game\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGfUQUUJzUvCyKbLRsYjKjA3xFuYA&#39;;return true;">zero-sum game (though not all finite games are literally zero sum, in that the sum of positive outcomes can vary).

Infinite games, on the other hand, do not have a knowable beginning or ending. They are played with the goal of continuing play and sometimes with a purpose of bringing more players into the game. An infinite game continues play, for the sake of play. If the game is approaching resolution because of the rules of play, the rules must be changed to allow continued play. The rules exist to ensure the game is infinite. The only known example is <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life" title="Life" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLife\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG9DyiXnxyksf0_G5RS_SjanpI7kw&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLife\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG9DyiXnxyksf0_G5RS_SjanpI7kw&#39;;return true;">life. Beginning to participate in an infinite game may be involuntary, in that it doesn't require conscious thought. Continuing participation in the current round of game-play is voluntary. "It is an invariable principle of all play, finite and infinite, that whoever plays, plays freely" 

Phil

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 12:14 AM, Euan M. <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="Gj2VR65LAQAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">eua...@...> wrote:

This point, over everything else

"there is no one "Smalltalk" to which you can develop supporting libraries. (There is one Java; there is one C++; there is one Python" 

Development language platforms are hugely affected to the network effect. The more other people who use it, the more useful and valuable it becomes, to existing users and potential users. So more people use it.

Ruby has *one* large community.  Java another. Python another.    This means that developers target "Ruby" or "Python" or "Java".  As opposed to targetting "Joe Bloggs's fork of Python of 1997", or "Emily Watkins's fork of Ruby of 2003", etc.

This gives higher confidence that other libraries and frameworks will work for your project

   - because they are targetted at the same language framework that you are targetting.

   - because with a larger community comes a larger pool of contributors to any particular library or framework, which means the libraries and frameworks have a better chance of being feature-complete or near feature complete, tested and quality assured, and documented

   - because with a larger community, it becomes more worthwhile for third parties (in the widest sense) to target helpful additions, like tutorial guides, and books, and even more libraries.
   - because with a larger community there are more people available and willing to give help and advice, at more times of day and night, and in more geographic locations and in more natural languages.

And here are some graphs so show the state of play -

<a href="http://smalltalkinsmallsteps.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/mindshare-of-smalltalk-in-development.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://smalltalkinsmallsteps.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/mindshare-of-smalltalk-in-development.html&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://smalltalkinsmallsteps.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/mindshare-of-smalltalk-in-development.html&#39;;return true;">http://smalltalkinsmallsteps.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/mindshare-of-smalltalk-in-development.html
The graphs compare all Smalltalks combined, with Ruby.  And all-Smalltalks-combined and Ruby. against JavaScript

I'm not sanguine about our chances because we seem to be in denial about three things: 

that the size of the community matters to how useful Smalltalk is over time;

that the size of the community matters to how fast Smalltalk improves;

and that the size of the community matters to how feature-complete Smalltalk becomes or manages to remain, over time.

Cheers, 

    EuanM

On Saturday, 5 September 2015 00:39:32 UTC+1, Richard Eng wrote:

The most critical thing is probably the dearth of Smalltalk "libraries." Time and again, developers complain about the lack of libraries and frameworks. Unfortunately, this is difficult to remedy because there is no one "Smalltalk" to which you can develop supporting libraries. (There is one Java; there is one C++; there is one Python – at least, if you work your way around the different versions.)

If Pharo can become the "hero" Smalltalk dialect that surpasses all others in terms of popularity, then there is hope here. A de facto standard would allow libraries to be written and easily ported, perhaps gently "coercing" other Smalltalks to "fall in line." However, I am not sanguine.

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