Why Pharo?
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I finally found the time to put the slides and narrative together
https://medium.com/@stephan_32833/pharo-50c66685913c#.jeou548z7 Stephan |
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Hi Stephan,
> On 25 Sep 2016, at 13:07, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I finally found the time to put the slides and narrative together > > https://medium.com/@stephan_32833/pharo-50c66685913c#.jeou548z7 > > Stephan Great article, super cool slides, well done. I especially appreciate how you guys managed to make so many good points in such a deceptively simple and clear text — that takes a lot of work. Any chance you would like to submit it too 'Concerning Pharo' publication [https://medium.com/concerning-pharo] ? Just send a submission and I would love to add it. Sven |
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Totally agree with the slides apart from "Pharo is Small" , the syntax may be but the whole environment last time I checked was 700k lines of code, which is huge for a dynamic language. Of course that is far from bad at least for me, I love powerful environments over minimal solutions. You reminded me that I neeed to update my "Why Pharo" video :) On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 2:43 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Stephan, |
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
Thanks Stephan & Diego. Nice to read. I liked the term "sea of objects"
cheers -ben On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 7:07 PM, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote: > I finally found the time to put the slides and narrative together > > https://medium.com/@stephan_32833/pharo-50c66685913c#.jeou548z7 > > Stephan > > |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
On 25-09-16 13:42, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
> Any chance you would like to submit it too 'Concerning Pharo' > publication [https://medium.com/concerning-pharo] ? Just send a > submission and I would love to add it. Sure. How does that work? I'm new to medium. Do you need to add me as a writer? Stephan |
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
Hi,
> On Sep 25, 2016, at 2:01 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Totally agree with the slides apart from "Pharo is Small" , the syntax may be but the whole environment last time I checked was 700k lines of code > which is huge for a dynamic language. Of course that is far from bad at least for me, I love powerful environments over minimal solutions. Just for reference, Pharo 5 has: Smalltalk allClasses sumNumbers: #linesOfCode “515500" This is still a lot, but we should compare against a language + IDE + compiler + collections + version management system + project dependency system + several significant other libraries. This might turn out to be quite small in the end :). But, one thing I would stress is that "Pharo is Uniform”. This is what in the end makes it seem “Small”. Cheers, Doru > You reminded me that I neeed to update my "Why Pharo" video :) > > Great work > > On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 2:43 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Stephan, > > > On 25 Sep 2016, at 13:07, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > I finally found the time to put the slides and narrative together > > > > https://medium.com/@stephan_32833/pharo-50c66685913c#.jeou548z7 > > > > Stephan > > Great article, super cool slides, well done. I especially appreciate how you guys managed to make so many good points in such a deceptively simple and clear text — that takes a lot of work. > > Any chance you would like to submit it too 'Concerning Pharo' publication [https://medium.com/concerning-pharo] ? Just send a submission and I would love to add it. > > Sven > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "If you can't say why something is relevant, it probably isn't." |
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Hi,
For reference, I just downloaded Ruby 2.3.1 (https://cache.ruby-lang.org/pub/ruby/2.3/ruby-2.3.1.tar.gz) and did: ('ruby-2.3.1' asFileReference allFiles select: [:each | each extension = 'rb' ]) sum: [ :each | [each contents lines size] on: Error do: [ :e | 0 ] ]. “826204" (there are two files that are not in UTF-8 so they were not counted here) Cheers, Doru > On Sep 25, 2016, at 3:45 PM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi, > >> On Sep 25, 2016, at 2:01 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Totally agree with the slides apart from "Pharo is Small" , the syntax may be but the whole environment last time I checked was 700k lines of code >> which is huge for a dynamic language. Of course that is far from bad at least for me, I love powerful environments over minimal solutions. > > > Just for reference, Pharo 5 has: > Smalltalk allClasses sumNumbers: #linesOfCode “515500" > > This is still a lot, but we should compare against a language + IDE + compiler + collections + version management system + project dependency system + several significant other libraries. This might turn out to be quite small in the end :). > > But, one thing I would stress is that "Pharo is Uniform”. This is what in the end makes it seem “Small”. > > > Cheers, > Doru > > > >> You reminded me that I neeed to update my "Why Pharo" video :) >> >> Great work >> >> On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 2:43 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi Stephan, >> >>> On 25 Sep 2016, at 13:07, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> I finally found the time to put the slides and narrative together >>> >>> https://medium.com/@stephan_32833/pharo-50c66685913c#.jeou548z7 >>> >>> Stephan >> >> Great article, super cool slides, well done. I especially appreciate how you guys managed to make so many good points in such a deceptively simple and clear text — that takes a lot of work. >> >> Any chance you would like to submit it too 'Concerning Pharo' publication [https://medium.com/concerning-pharo] ? Just send a submission and I would love to add it. >> >> Sven >> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "If you can't say why something is relevant, > it probably isn't." -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "To lead is not to demand things, it is to make them happen." |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
Slides 5, 8-10 provide an interesting perspective on project size
http://www.slideshare.net/blackducksoftware/open-source-by-the-numbers and interesting conclusions on slide 17 * The larger the code base, the less contributors and activity. * The "most likely to succeed" -- are still small enough for people joining them to have an impact. where <1MLOC seems fine, and also the accessibility of whole system makes it easier for people to have an impact. cheers -ben On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 9:45 PM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi, > >> On Sep 25, 2016, at 2:01 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Totally agree with the slides apart from "Pharo is Small" , the syntax may be but the whole environment last time I checked was 700k lines of code >> which is huge for a dynamic language. Of course that is far from bad at least for me, I love powerful environments over minimal solutions. > > > Just for reference, Pharo 5 has: > Smalltalk allClasses sumNumbers: #linesOfCode “515500" > > This is still a lot, but we should compare against a language + IDE + compiler + collections + version management system + project dependency system + several significant other libraries. This might turn out to be quite small in the end :). > > But, one thing I would stress is that "Pharo is Uniform”. This is what in the end makes it seem “Small”. > > > Cheers, > Doru > > > >> You reminded me that I neeed to update my "Why Pharo" video :) >> >> Great work >> >> On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 2:43 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi Stephan, >> >> > On 25 Sep 2016, at 13:07, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > >> > I finally found the time to put the slides and narrative together >> > >> > https://medium.com/@stephan_32833/pharo-50c66685913c#.jeou548z7 >> > >> > Stephan >> >> Great article, super cool slides, well done. I especially appreciate how you guys managed to make so many good points in such a deceptively simple and clear text — that takes a lot of work. >> >> Any chance you would like to submit it too 'Concerning Pharo' publication [https://medium.com/concerning-pharo] ? Just send a submission and I would love to add it. >> >> Sven >> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "If you can't say why something is relevant, > it probably isn't." > > |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
yes all I did is to open the sources file in a text editor and see which one was the last line, that means it includes empty lines too. So 500k sound normal to me. Personally as a user I rarely care about the size because I rarely care to modify the existing image . For me its more important to have more features that make my work easier. On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 4:46 PM Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi, |
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In reply to this post by Ben Coman
Wow I am surprised C++ is so popular sounds reasonable but I will assume here that larger code base means more users since its more likely to have more features. But for contributing to code yeah people tend to avoid complex projects, obviously its far easier to contribute in something much simpler. However large size is an inevitable outcome you can only postpone it with clean ups unless of course the project dies in the process. "* The larger the code base, the less contributors and activity." On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 5:46 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: Slides 5, 8-10 provide an interesting perspective on project size |
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
Hi,
> On Sep 25, 2016, at 6:16 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > yes all I did is to open the sources file in a text editor and see which one was the last line, that means it includes empty lines too. So 500k sound normal to me. > > Personally as a user I rarely care about the size because I rarely care to modify the existing image . For me its more important to have more features that make my work easier. > > Also bare in mind in case of Ruby as with Python, that there is A LOT of C involved which is a very verbose language and of course that includes VM and low level parts that in the case of Pharo are not included in the image. I only counted the rb files, not the C ones (see the script) :) Doru > On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 4:46 PM Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi, > > > On Sep 25, 2016, at 2:01 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > Totally agree with the slides apart from "Pharo is Small" , the syntax may be but the whole environment last time I checked was 700k lines of code > > which is huge for a dynamic language. Of course that is far from bad at least for me, I love powerful environments over minimal solutions. > > > Just for reference, Pharo 5 has: > Smalltalk allClasses sumNumbers: #linesOfCode “515500" > > This is still a lot, but we should compare against a language + IDE + compiler + collections + version management system + project dependency system + several significant other libraries. This might turn out to be quite small in the end :). > > But, one thing I would stress is that "Pharo is Uniform”. This is what in the end makes it seem “Small”. > > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > > You reminded me that I neeed to update my "Why Pharo" video :) > > > > Great work > > > > On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 2:43 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi Stephan, > > > > > On 25 Sep 2016, at 13:07, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > > > I finally found the time to put the slides and narrative together > > > > > > https://medium.com/@stephan_32833/pharo-50c66685913c#.jeou548z7 > > > > > > Stephan > > > > Great article, super cool slides, well done. I especially appreciate how you guys managed to make so many good points in such a deceptively simple and clear text — that takes a lot of work. > > > > Any chance you would like to submit it too 'Concerning Pharo' publication [https://medium.com/concerning-pharo] ? Just send a submission and I would love to add it. > > > > Sven > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "If you can't say why something is relevant, > it probably isn't." > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." |
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Ah I missed that, I stand corrected. Still not surprising. On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 7:27 PM Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi, |
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
Really nice
Le 25/9/16 à 14:07, Stephan Eggermont a écrit : > I finally found the time to put the slides and narrative together > > https://medium.com/@stephan_32833/pharo-50c66685913c#.jeou548z7 > > Stephan > > > |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
Once I sadi to my students that
for something doing nothing zero is the right size :) So everything is a question of ratio. Le 25/9/16 à 16:45, Tudor Girba a écrit : > Hi, > >> On Sep 25, 2016, at 2:01 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Totally agree with the slides apart from "Pharo is Small" , the syntax may be but the whole environment last time I checked was 700k lines of code >> which is huge for a dynamic language. Of course that is far from bad at least for me, I love powerful environments over minimal solutions. > > Just for reference, Pharo 5 has: > Smalltalk allClasses sumNumbers: #linesOfCode “515500" > > This is still a lot, but we should compare against a language + IDE + compiler + collections + version management system + project dependency system + several significant other libraries. This might turn out to be quite small in the end :). > > But, one thing I would stress is that "Pharo is Uniform”. This is what in the end makes it seem “Small”. > > > Cheers, > Doru > > > >> You reminded me that I neeed to update my "Why Pharo" video :) >> >> Great work >> >> On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 2:43 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi Stephan, >> >>> On 25 Sep 2016, at 13:07, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> I finally found the time to put the slides and narrative together >>> >>> https://medium.com/@stephan_32833/pharo-50c66685913c#.jeou548z7 >>> >>> Stephan >> Great article, super cool slides, well done. I especially appreciate how you guys managed to make so many good points in such a deceptively simple and clear text — that takes a lot of work. >> >> Any chance you would like to submit it too 'Concerning Pharo' publication [https://medium.com/concerning-pharo] ? Just send a submission and I would love to add it. >> >> Sven >> >> > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "If you can't say why something is relevant, > it probably isn't." > > > |
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
stefan
to me research vehicule could be perceived negatively. Stef Le 25/9/16 à 14:07, Stephan Eggermont a écrit : > I finally found the time to put the slides and narrative together > > https://medium.com/@stephan_32833/pharo-50c66685913c#.jeou548z7 > > Stephan > > > |
Re: Why Pharo?
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
Hi,
On 25/09/16 06:07, Stephan Eggermont wrote: > I finally found the time to put the slides and narrative together > > https://medium.com/@stephan_32833/pharo-50c66685913c#.jeou548z7 > Thanks a lot Stephan! The timing is really good, because we started the 5th edition of the our Data Week workshop/hackathon last weekend and I will be sharing with the participants for the next weekend (the Data Week is split in two weekends sessions from Thursday to Saturday). It's a short narrative with relevant points. Dealing with complexity and trying to find the proper balance between research and production using fast feedback loops, provides Pharo with a unique position and your story telling, accounts for this in a concise yet compelling fashion. Cheers, Offray Ps: As usual, we will be sharing some processes / results of the 5th Data Week, with the Pharo community. |
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In reply to this post by stepharo
On 26/09/16 17:57, stepharo wrote:
> to me research vehicule could be perceived negatively. There are a lot of people for which research vehicule is negative. In Crossing the Chasm, Geoffrey Moore describes well the difference between innovators, early adopters, early and late majority and laggards. This directly targets innovators and early adopters, who like challenges. In a legacy-code environment, you're likely to find more late majority and laggard attitude. There Wardley mapping is likely to be helpful to limit and control the scope of innovation. Pharo is the state of the art in software development, and we can only stay ahead by being a research vehicule. Stephan |
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