Smalltalk › Frameworks & Tools › Seaside › Seaside General

Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

_‹ Previous Topic Next Topic _›

Classic

List

Threaded

40 messages Options

Intrader Intrader

Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

I don't think that the decision of using new names (for example paragraph for
) is such a good idea.

Why was it done?

Thanks

P.A. Wow the captcha for this post is 'crusade'

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seasidenew names

Short answer: readability and expressiveness. It would be fairly trivial to make a package that aliases everything with w3c terms if you like :)

Sent from my iPhone

On 2011-02-16, at 22:22, "Fritz Schenk" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't think that the decision of using new names (for example paragraph for
> ) is such a good idea.
>
> Why was it done?
>
> Thanks
>
> P.A. Wow the captcha for this post is 'crusade'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

NorbertHartl

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

In reply to this post by Intrader Intrader

On 17.02.2011, at 04:21, Fritz Schenk wrote:

> I don't think that the decision of using new names (for example paragraph for
> ) is such a good idea.
>
Why do you think it is not a good idea?

> Why was it done?

Readability perhaps. The p in html stands for paragraph. It is quite an attitude of smalltalkers not to use abbrevations because these are hard to read. I assume you mean that it is more to type and that it looks different to the html being created. The latter reason is a good one. The methods in the canvas are not bound to just emit a single tag. They can emit everything they like. So I would state that naming it the same wouldn't be that good because you will likely mix things that don't belong to each other.

Norbert

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

sebastianconcept@gmail.co

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

In reply to this post by Intrader Intrader

Yes... is not seaside names really.

If you watch for the documentation the first thing you see is that it is an html representation of a paragraph. Well to represent a paragraph in seaside we used the smalltalk culture that is to just say the name of the thing (I mean literally).

Smalltalk has this culture of enhancing readability paying some price in "writeabilty" but is nothing any decent autocompleter won't help you with.

I think the trade of is clever because, used properly, makes easier to have a nice flow of newbies who can feel it intuitive.

It makes easier for you to pretend that the virtual object is a real object.

besides that's why looking smalltalk code resulting from that is beautiful when compared with resulting html code (which hurts in your eye and brain)

The same probably apply to an abstraction to other stuff like javascript, squeak's own VM's C or whatever stuff you wrap with it

sebastian

On Feb 17, 2011, at 1:21 AM, Fritz Schenk wrote:

I don't think that the decision of using new names (for example paragraph for
) is such a good idea.

Why was it done?

Thanks

P.A. Wow the captcha for this post is 'crusade'

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Robert Sirois

RE: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

Which is why Pharo is so great :)

RS

From: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Seaside] Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:33:35 -0200
To: [hidden email]

Yes... is not seaside names really.

Smalltalk has this culture of enhancing readability paying some price in "writeabilty" but is nothing any decent autocompleter won't help you with.

I think the trade of is clever because, used properly, makes easier to have a nice flow of newbies who can feel it intuitive.

It makes easier for you to pretend that the virtual object is a real object.

besides that's why looking smalltalk code resulting from that is beautiful when compared with resulting html code (which hurts in your eye and brain)

The same probably apply to an abstraction to other stuff like javascript, squeak's own VM's C or whatever stuff you wrap with it

sebastian

On Feb 17, 2011, at 1:21 AM, Fritz Schenk wrote:

I don't think that the decision of using new names (for example paragraph for
) is such a good idea.

Why was it done?

Thanks

P.A. Wow the captcha for this post is 'crusade'

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Nick

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

In reply to this post by Intrader Intrader

You might find Seafox helpful: http://seafox.seasidehosting.st/

It's a plugin for firefox with converts html into a Seaside render methods - not perfect but helpful in some circumstances and potentially for learning Seaside

On 17 February 2011 03:21, Fritz Schenk <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't think that the decision of using new names (for example paragraph for
) is such a good idea.

Why was it done?

Thanks

P.A. Wow the captcha for this post is 'crusade'

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Intrader Intrader

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

In reply to this post by NorbertHartl

Norbert, I think that it requires the learning of yet another language while
using Seaside.
I have seen the quote 'say it in Seaside', but it is just not clear to have to
learn a new vocabulary to do Seaside.

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Intrader Intrader

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

In reply to this post by sebastianconcept@gmail.co

Sebastian, you say a 'decent autocompleter';
To say <a> and its attributes you have to say anchor. The autocompleter does not
say anything else about callback, url, attributes, etc.

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now givenen Seaside new names

In reply to this post by Intrader Intrader

This isn't anything specific to Seaside, aliasing commands in hopes of
improving developer experience is quite common,

document.getElementById('container') vs jQuery('#container')
gc vs get-content
etc

-Boris

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fritz
Schenk
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 4:34 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Seaside] Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now givenen
Seaside new names

Norbert, I think that it requires the learning of yet another language
while using Seaside.
I have seen the quote 'say it in Seaside', but it is just not clear to
have to learn a new vocabulary to do Seaside.

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Intrader Intrader

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

In reply to this post by Robert Sirois

Robert, depends on the beholder of the language. For people having used html
since 1992, introducing something new is questionable and rather than beautiful
it is a trap for new users.

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Intrader Intrader

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

In reply to this post by Nick

Nick Ager,
That is more like it, but not perfect as you say.
How do I install it?

Thanks

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Robert Sirois

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

In reply to this post by Intrader Intrader

Hehe could be. I was taught to find the technology appropriate for the application, then learn and implement it. Learning is a big part of programming... nobody expects to jump into a new technology and be completely familiar with it from their college years or whatever ten years previous.

RS

> To: [hidden email]

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 21:40:08 +0000
> Subject: [Seaside] Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names
>
> Robert, depends on the beholder of the language. For people having used html
> since 1992, introducing something new is questionable and rather than beautiful
> it is a trap for new users.
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

In reply to this post by Intrader Intrader

Fritz Schenk wrote:
>Robert, depends on the beholder of the language. For people having used html
>since 1992, introducing something new is questionable and rather than beautiful
>it is a trap for new users.

I fail to see where something new is introduced. RFC 1866 might not be from
1992, but it still is 15 years old.

Stephan_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Intrader Intrader

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

Stephan, I don't get your comment.
What I meant, was that I have programmed web pages since 1992; pretty close to
its invention in 1990. It is most natural for me to jot a site in vim and be
done with it and make it Web2.0 with jQuery is most natural.
Seaside offers a new language to generate html; and I was inquiring as to
whether 'old' users would just be more confused with the two ways to generate
html.
Now, in Seaside we can 'say jQuery in Seaside' - but not quite, as when
importing html in a jQuery AJAX load action.

Thanks

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are nowgiven en Seaside new names

Fritz,

If you feel so strongly about it, this is what open source is all about:
make a package called Seaside-OldSchool and add things like
WARenderCanvas>>a and WARenderCanvas>>ul. I've done a ton of HTML before
Seaside as well and didn't really have any issues transitioning, because
expanded names actually make more sense in many cases (#a vs #anchor)
and are a lot more consistent (#url vs #href:/#src:).

Regards,

-Boris

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fritz
Schenk
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 6:29 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Seaside] Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are nowgiven en
Seaside new names

Stephan, I don't get your comment.
What I meant, was that I have programmed web pages since 1992; pretty
close to its invention in 1990. It is most natural for me to jot a site
in vim and be done with it and make it Web2.0 with jQuery is most
natural.
Seaside offers a new language to generate html; and I was inquiring as
to whether 'old' users would just be more confused with the two ways to
generate html.
Now, in Seaside we can 'say jQuery in Seaside' - but not quite, as when
importing html in a jQuery AJAX load action.

Thanks

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

sebastianconcept@gmail.co

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

In reply to this post by Intrader Intrader

I prefer 100 gazillion times to fail at that (or implement an autocompleter that includes an html2tag glossary) than to break the intuitive consistency of the trade off I've mentioned.

That trade off may work for you or not.

You decide.

By the way what's the alternative?

To prioritize and overrate irrelevant details?

I'm not inspired to do software by <a>'s I'm inspired to put anchors (the concept) where matters. The details comes after that. Whatever comes after that. I can be talking of something that is two centuries after deprecating html and be perfectly useful and intuitive except for the details.

Seaside gives you the luxury of rendering (like painting) your application's concepts using html as the accidental brush you have at hand right now. You can decide to take that at your advantage looking at it that way (or inefficiently try to use it as hammer and feel frustrated).

On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Fritz Schenk wrote:

> Sebastian, you say a 'decent autocompleter';
> To say <a> and its attributes you have to say anchor. The autocompleter does not
> say anything else about callback, url, attributes, etc.
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Robert Sirois

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

How do you like posts on mailing lists? :p

RS

> Subject: Re: [Seaside] Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are now given en Seaside new names

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 21:36:51 -0200
> To: [hidden email]
>
> I prefer 100 gazillion times to fail at that (or implement an autocompleter that includes an html2tag glossary) than to break the intuitive consistency of the trade off I've mentioned.
>
> That trade off may work for you or not.
>
> You decide.
>
> By the way what's the alternative?
>
> To prioritize and overrate irrelevant details?
>
> I'm not inspired to do software by <a>'s I'm inspired to put anchors (the concept) where matters. The details comes after that. Whatever comes after that. I can be talking of something that is two centuries after deprecating html and be perfectly useful and intuitive except for the details.
>
> Seaside gives you the luxury of rendering (like painting) your application's concepts using html as the accidental brush you have at hand right now. You can decide to take that at your advantage looking at it that way (or inefficiently try to use it as hammer and feel frustrated).
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Fritz Schenk wrote:
>
> > Sebastian, you say a 'decent autocompleter';
> > To say <a> and its attributes you have to say anchor. The autocompleter does not
> > say anything else about callback, url, attributes, etc.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > seaside mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Intrader Intrader

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good names are nowgiven en Seaside new names

In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Boris, I appreciate your comments. Yes, it is possible to 'improve' via the open
source model.

Let's play the entering anchor game.

Start with

html anchor

Nothing is offered here with the code completion - we have no idea what is next.
We look into WAAnchorTag and discover that an instance variable of 'url' exists.
An then...

You might browse that callback: is indeed available as a possibility.

Is a better code completion the tool we 'old timers' need?

What got me interested in Seaside is continuations as I implemented a
continuation capable controller in VB6 more than a decade ago.

I put up with the way of Seaside and suffer through its 'handling' of html
button onClick: ((html jQuery expression: 'external_links a')
onClick: 'return confirm(\"You are going to visit: \"+ this.href)');
with: 'Attach Click'
when I notice Seaside's complete lack of knowledge about JavaScript when it
thinks that onClick: 'return
confirm("You are going to visit: "+ this.href)');
with: 'Attach Click'
is complete and correct?

Oh, well - I still like Seaside mainly because of Smalltalk.

Thanks

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good namesare nowgiven en Seaside new names

I don't play games like that ;)

-Boris

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fritz
Schenk
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 7:31 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Seaside] Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good namesare nowgiven en
Seaside new names

Boris, I appreciate your comments. Yes, it is possible to 'improve' via
the open source model.

Let's play the entering anchor game.

Start with

html anchor

Nothing is offered here with the code completion - we have no idea what
is next.
We look into WAAnchorTag and discover that an instance variable of 'url'
exists.
An then...

You might browse that callback: is indeed available as a possibility.

Is a better code completion the tool we 'old timers' need?

What got me interested in Seaside is continuations as I implemented a
continuation capable controller in VB6 more than a decade ago.

I put up with the way of Seaside and suffer through its 'handling' of
html button onClick: ((html jQuery expression: 'external_links a')
onClick: 'return confirm(\"You are going to visit: \"+ this.href)');
with: 'Attach Click'
when I notice Seaside's complete lack of knowledge about JavaScript when
it thinks that onClick: 'return confirm("You are going to visit: "+
this.href)');
with: 'Attach Click'
is complete and correct?

Oh, well - I still like Seaside mainly because of Smalltalk.

Thanks

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Intrader Intrader

Re: Why - XHTML perfectly good namesare nowgiven en Seaside new names

Boris, oh well, thanks

_______________________________________________
seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside