Why a package management system

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Why a package management system

Torsten Bergmann
>So you are educating them....
>Frankly I stopped trying long time ago.

No, I just tell them what I think is necessary to move forward.
Other may be more educated here, it is just sharing MHO so others
can to form an own opinion.

>I think it would be much more ... "becoming" (and fruitful) if we all
>could stop "trash talking" each other - especially those of us who play
>a "larger role".

+1

Meanwhile the Pharo community has grown with new members and many people
dont care about old discussions.

Let's use our energy to move forward and (if possible) share as much
knowledge and code as long as parts of our communities overlap.

I therefore would really like to see a common exchange mechanism used
on both sides.

I'm sure I'm not able to convince one or the other to use package
systems like Metacello but at least I hope to make them think about
the need of a more modular system.

Bye
T.


"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel."


--
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Re: Why a package management system

garduino


2010/2/23 Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]>
>So you are educating them....
>Frankly I stopped trying long time ago.

No, I just tell them what I think is necessary to move forward.
Other may be more educated here, it is just sharing MHO so others
can to form an own opinion.



Your mail is excellent and show very well the advantages of work with Metacello.

When I read the first article about Metacello don't figured out is power until I invested some
time to learn it and developed some "ConfigurationOf..." and currently I think is an
invaluable tool that help to put Pharo/Squeak at the "next level" :)


 
Let's use our energy to move forward and (if possible) share as much
knowledge and code as long as parts of our communities overlap.

I therefore would really like to see a common exchange mechanism used
on both sides.

I'm sure I'm not able to convince one or the other to use package
systems like Metacello but at least I hope to make them think about
the need of a more modular system.


Package systems are needed to professional development and I think that
Metacello is a very good tool. I'm happily using it.

Germán.


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Re: Why a package management system

Göran Krampe
In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
Hi!

Torsten Bergmann wrote:
>> So you are educating them....
>> Frankly I stopped trying long time ago.
>
> No, I just tell them what I think is necessary to move forward.
> Other may be more educated here, it is just sharing MHO so others
> can to form an own opinion.

Right, discussion is good. And believe me - the squeak-dev community is
NOT oblivious to the needs of a package system. I mean, come on,
Monticello, SqueakMap, Universes etc etc - it all was around before
Pharo was born.

What I have seen so far in Metacello is indeed nothing new - the
senarios and discussions about dependencies etc go loooong way back.

BUT... that *doesn't* mean I am passing any judgment on Metacello - IMHO
all efforts are good per definition! :) I haven't formed an opinion myself.

>> I think it would be much more ... "becoming" (and fruitful) if we all
>> could stop "trash talking" each other - especially those of us who play
>> a "larger role".
>
> +1

Thank you.

> Meanwhile the Pharo community has grown with new members and many people
> dont care about old discussions.
>
> Let's use our energy to move forward and (if possible) share as much
> knowledge and code as long as parts of our communities overlap.

Yes, exactly.

> I therefore would really like to see a common exchange mechanism used
> on both sides.
>
> I'm sure I'm not able to convince one or the other to use package
> systems like Metacello but at least I hope to make them think about
> the need of a more modular system.

Ehm, "a more modular system" has been on the table since... hell, way
back to Squeak 3.3! And yeah, even earlier of course - you can probably
track it back to PARC if you try hard. :) :)

Anyway, "common exchange mechanism" - I am working on Deltastreams which
I even presented at Brest, though unfortunately colliding with the
Seaside tutorial. Deltas and Deltastreams are indeed focused on EXACTLY
this problem (fork interchange), and it was born in 2007:

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2007-August/119471.html

I and Igor are the ones working on it - and after Brest we have had very
little time to move it forward. I still think it is a very important
piece of the puzzle though.

regards, Göran


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Re: Why a package management system

garduino
Hi Göran:

Sorry by my intromision here, but want to say somethings :)

2010/2/23 Göran Krampe <[hidden email]>
Hi!

Torsten Bergmann wrote:
>> So you are educating them....
>> Frankly I stopped trying long time ago.
>
> No, I just tell them what I think is necessary to move forward.
> Other may be more educated here, it is just sharing MHO so others
> can to form an own opinion.

Right, discussion is good. And believe me - the squeak-dev community is
NOT oblivious to the needs of a package system. I mean, come on,
Monticello, SqueakMap, Universes etc etc - it all was around before
Pharo was born.

What I have seen so far in Metacello is indeed nothing new - the
senarios and discussions about dependencies etc go loooong way back.



I'm on Squeak from old 3.2 times. And yes, a lot of discussions about packages,
etc, but only discussions on most of cases. I think Metacello solves the dependencies
questions very well and the other tools not (with exception of Universes probably, but
abandoned now). Also Metacello provides all the features explained on the excellent
mail of Torsten, assuring that the configurations will work with the time not breaking
stuffs.

The solution of using Metacello+Monticello is, imho, very simple, easy and productive
and is here, available to us. :)


 

> I therefore would really like to see a common exchange mechanism used
> on both sides.
>
> I'm sure I'm not able to convince one or the other to use package
> systems like Metacello but at least I hope to make them think about
> the need of a more modular system.

Ehm, "a more modular system" has been on the table since... hell, way
back to Squeak 3.3! And yeah, even earlier of course - you can probably
track it back to PARC if you try hard. :) :)



hehe, I remember the 3.3 modules breaking almost all the things coming from 3.2.

 

Anyway, "common exchange mechanism" - I am working on Deltastreams which
I even presented at Brest, though unfortunately colliding with the
Seaside tutorial. Deltas and Deltastreams are indeed focused on EXACTLY
this problem (fork interchange), and it was born in 2007:

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2007-August/119471.html

I and Igor are the ones working on it - and after Brest we have had very
little time to move it forward. I still think it is a very important
piece of the puzzle though.



But Deltastreams are ready to use on production systems?

Cheers.
Germán.


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Re: Why a package management system

Henrik Sperre Johansen
In reply to this post by Göran Krampe


Den 23.02.2010 13:00, skrev Göran Krampe:

> Hi!
>
> Torsten Bergmann wrote:
>  
>>> So you are educating them....
>>> Frankly I stopped trying long time ago.
>>>      
>> No, I just tell them what I think is necessary to move forward.
>> Other may be more educated here, it is just sharing MHO so others
>> can to form an own opinion.
>>    
> Right, discussion is good. And believe me - the squeak-dev community is
> NOT oblivious to the needs of a package system. I mean, come on,
> Monticello, SqueakMap, Universes etc etc - it all was around before
> Pharo was born.
>
> What I have seen so far in Metacello is indeed nothing new - the
> senarios and discussions about dependencies etc go loooong way back.
>
> BUT... that *doesn't* mean I am passing any judgment on Metacello - IMHO
> all efforts are good per definition! :) I haven't formed an opinion myself.
>
>  
No system is going to perfectly fulfill everyones perception of what
would be "The Best Way"(tm), but as long as the need for functionality
provided by a system is real, actually deciding on one, IS important.
From what I've seen in archive discussion, that seems to have been the
biggest showstopper for noticeable progress in the Squeak community.
Paradoxically, existing systems which clearly contain lousy code, are
left in (or replacements objected to) on the basis of
backwards-compatability...
IMHO, this is the biggest difference between Squeak and Pharo I've seen.
Sure, you can now unload Etoys from Squeak, your image will still
contain code like ImageSegment>>findRogueRootsAllMorphs: though.
Sure, you can new add Preferences with pragmas now, you still have a
class with a Dictionary accessed and stored into by the entire system,
and 1223 accessors for things local to specific packages though.

Metacello is nothing new for sure, but contrary to other systems, it
seems to have reached wide acceptance in Pharo.
Understandably, many here feel it'd be nice if the "classic"
Squeak-community decided to use it as well.
Personally, I doubt it will happen (for any PMS really, as evidenced by
Sake/Packages, as well as all the other previous attempts), yet I
appreciate Torsten's and others effort to at least correct the plain-out
misconceptions some people seem to have about deficiencies of Metacello.

Pretty sure noone would argue Monticello is a perfect system either,
achieving critical mass was though.

>> Meanwhile the Pharo community has grown with new members and many people
>> dont care about old discussions.
>>
>> Let's use our energy to move forward and (if possible) share as much
>> knowledge and code as long as parts of our communities overlap.
>>    
> Yes, exactly.
>  
+1.

> Anyway, "common exchange mechanism" - I am working on Deltastreams which
> I even presented at Brest, though unfortunately colliding with the
> Seaside tutorial. Deltas and Deltastreams are indeed focused on EXACTLY
> this problem (fork interchange), and it was born in 2007:
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2007-August/119471.html
>
> I and Igor are the ones working on it - and after Brest we have had very
> little time to move it forward. I still think it is a very important
> piece of the puzzle though.
>
> regards, Göran
I've been meaning to make system-change notifications for Pharo so the
recording-part could work there too, but I never seem to get around to it :(
Part of the problem is of course my own personal "The Best Way"(tm),
which f.ex. would include Announcements.
Since I'd like the ability to have Weak subscriptions, I'd first have to
deoptimize the Announcement-package Levente made a bit to make it
"prettier", make it a strict superset of what if found in Core already,
fix WeakRegistry so each resource registered for an object actually gets
finalized, which again means... etc... Oh, and hope it'd end up good
enough that it'd warrant inclusion:)

Cheers,
Henry

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Re: Why a package management system

Mariano Martinez Peck

IMHO, this is the biggest difference between Squeak and Pharo I've seen.
Sure, you can now unload Etoys from Squeak, your image will still
contain code like ImageSegment>>findRogueRootsAllMorphs: though.

Of course....and an infinitive number of Smalltalk at: #XXX ifPresent:
 

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Re: Why a package management system

Göran Krampe
In reply to this post by garduino
Hi!

Germán Arduino wrote:
> Hi Göran:
>
> Sorry by my intromision here, but want to say somethings :)
>
> 2010/2/23 Göran Krampe <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
[SNIP]

>     What I have seen so far in Metacello is indeed nothing new - the
>     senarios and discussions about dependencies etc go loooong way back.
>
>
> I'm on Squeak from old 3.2 times. And yes, a lot of discussions about
> packages,
> etc, but only discussions on most of cases. I think Metacello solves the
> dependencies
> questions very well and the other tools not (with exception of Universes
> probably, but
> abandoned now). Also Metacello provides all the features explained on
> the excellent
> mail of Torsten, assuring that the configurations will work with the
> time not breaking
> stuffs.
>
> The solution of using Metacello+Monticello is, imho, very simple, easy
> and productive
> and is here, available to us. :)

I never claimed otherwise! I am just saying that there is nothing new -
and frankly, though I admit not having read carefully, I didn't find the
example so... impressive. Perhaps I need to read it again.

Again though - I am not saying anything negative about Metacello.

[SNIP]

>     Anyway, "common exchange mechanism" - I am working on Deltastreams which
>     I even presented at Brest, though unfortunately colliding with the
>     Seaside tutorial. Deltas and Deltastreams are indeed focused on EXACTLY
>     this problem (fork interchange), and it was born in 2007:
>
>     http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2007-August/119471.html
>
>     I and Igor are the ones working on it - and after Brest we have had very
>     little time to move it forward. I still think it is a very important
>     piece of the puzzle though.
>
> But Deltastreams are ready to use on production systems?

Nope, not yet, although very close. But since the topic came up I wanted
to mention it. But AFAIK there is no other tool/project aimed at that
use case. Again, I may be wrong :)

regards, Göran


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Re: Why a package management system

laurent laffont
In reply to this post by Henrik Sperre Johansen

Metacello is nothing new for sure, but contrary to other systems, it
seems to have reached wide acceptance in Pharo.

IMHO that's a key point. We don't need to have the best package management system, we need to have only ONE. Major Linux distributions are great for that. Ruby too (though there has been a lot of problems when github came in, you had to choose which fork of the gem you wanted to use, everybody fork.....  gemcutter has resolved this).

When there will be needs to switch to another package management system, trash the old, only use the new one. So we can keep one way to load packages.

Metacello is great :)

Laurent Laffont.

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Re: Why a package management system

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
>
>
> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel."

Exactly this is exactly my experience. :)


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Re: Why a package management system

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by garduino
>
> When I read the first article about Metacello don't figured out is power until I invested some
> time to learn it and developed some "ConfigurationOf..." and currently I think is an
> invaluable tool that help to put Pharo/Squeak at the "next level" :)

Thanks.
I'm really happy that dale started to push that (even if keith was doing the same with Sake)
because since the first day we worked with MC and used MC to manage 3.9 we were aware that we
need such mechanism.
Expressing package dependency is key to system deployment scale.


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Re: Why a package management system

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Göran Krampe
>>
>> But Deltastreams are ready to use on production systems?
>
> Nope, not yet, although very close. But since the topic came up I wanted
> to mention it. But AFAIK there is no other tool/project aimed at that
> use case. Again, I may be wrong :

BTW I like deltastream and your presentation at esug was convincing
now this is important to try it for real before commiting.

Stef

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Re: Why a package management system

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by laurent laffont
+ 1
let us work on the infrastructure.

> Metacello is nothing new for sure, but contrary to other systems, it
> seems to have reached wide acceptance in Pharo.
>
> IMHO that's a key point. We don't need to have the best package management system, we need to have only ONE. Major Linux distributions are great for that. Ruby too (though there has been a lot of problems when github came in, you had to choose which fork of the gem you wanted to use, everybody fork.....  gemcutter has resolved this).
>
> When there will be needs to switch to another package management system, trash the old, only use the new one. So we can keep one way to load packages.
>
> Metacello is great :)
>
> Laurent Laffont.
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Re: Why a package management system

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Henrik Sperre Johansen

> I've been meaning to make system-change notifications for Pharo so the
> recording-part could work there too, but I never seem to get around to it :(
> Part of the problem is of course my own personal "The Best Way"(tm),
> which f.ex. would include Announcements.
> Since I'd like the ability to have Weak subscriptions, I'd first have to
> deoptimize the Announcement-package Levente made a bit to make it
> "prettier",

can you explain a bit more the technical aspect?

> make it a strict superset of what if found in Core already,
> fix WeakRegistry so each resource registered for an object actually gets
> finalized, which again means... etc... Oh, and hope it'd end up good
> enough that it'd warrant inclusion:)

I would love to see a bit more enhancement on Announcement.

Stef
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Re: Why a package management system

Dale
In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann

----- "Torsten Bergmann" <[hidden email]> wrote:

| I'm sure I'm not able to convince one or the other to use package
| systems like Metacello but at least I hope to make them think about
| the need of a more modular system.

Torsten,

Just for the record. I truly look forward to the day when a better package management system comes along.

If Metacello spurs some folks with "obviously better ideas" to produce a Package Management system that we can all use, then it will have been worth the effort:)

Until the better mousetrap appears, I will continue to slog along on Metacello.

Dale

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Re: Why a package management system

Janko Mivšek
On 24. 02. 2010 02:55, Dale Henrichs wrote:

> If Metacello spurs some folks with "obviously better ideas" to produce a Package Management system that we
> can all use, then it will have been worth the effort:)
> Until the better mousetrap appears, I will continue to slog along on Metacello.

That's a good plan, Dale. Metacello has a momentum right now and with
continuing it has a chance to become a de-facto tool on top of
Monticello for PMS. I just hope that the momentum will continue to some
decent GUI tools as well :)

Best regards
Janko

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

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Re: Why a package management system

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Dale
>
>
> Just for the record. I truly look forward to the day when a better package management system comes along.
>
> If Metacello spurs some folks with "obviously better ideas" to produce a Package Management system that we can all use, then it will have been worth the effort:)
>
> Until the better mousetrap appears, I will continue to slog along on Metacello.

this is the only strategy.
build use learn build use learn build use learn build use learn build use learn build use learn build use learn build use learn build use learn build use learn build use learn build use learn build use learn
and may be
        swicth build use learn build use learn build use learn build use learn

Thanks for your steady building approach
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Re: Why a package management system

Mariano Martinez Peck
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek


2010/2/24 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>
On 24. 02. 2010 02:55, Dale Henrichs wrote:

> If Metacello spurs some folks with "obviously better ideas" to produce a Package Management system that we
> can all use, then it will have been worth the effort:)
> Until the better mousetrap appears, I will continue to slog along on Metacello.

That's a good plan, Dale. Metacello has a momentum right now and with
continuing it has a chance to become a de-facto tool on top of
Monticello for PMS. I just hope that the momentum will continue to some
decent GUI tools as well :)


Janko, I don't know what it "decent" for you, but did you try Metacello-OB and Metaceller ?

 
Best regards
Janko

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

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Re: Why a package management system

garduino
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse


2010/2/24 Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>

Thanks for your steady building approach


+111111111111111

This is the attitude, Thanks Dale!


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Re: Why a package management system

Henrik Sperre Johansen
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
  On 23.02.2010 19:01, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>> I've been meaning to make system-change notifications for Pharo so the
>> recording-part could work there too, but I never seem to get around to it :(
>> Part of the problem is of course my own personal "The Best Way"(tm),
>> which f.ex. would include Announcements.
>> Since I'd like the ability to have Weak subscriptions, I'd first have to
>> deoptimize the Announcement-package Levente made a bit to make it
>> "prettier",
> can you explain a bit more the technical aspect?
Well, Levente's implementation, each kind of arg has it's own
Subscription class, for performance reasons.
What I was hoping to do was consolidate these so there's only two
classes, one for Strong, and one for weak subscriptions.
Using cull: this is possible, with a small performance penalty at
subscriber evaluation time (IIRC, 4 times less overhead compared to
valueWithPossibleArgs:, but double the overhead of direct value:
evaluation which you achieve with the one-class-per-arg-type approach ),
but with faster subscription creation.
Thus, you get a simpler implementation at the cost of some performance.

Lacking Weak subscriptions is, as Bill put it in an earlier mail: "a lot
like the dependency days of MVC - remember #release?  I'm trying to
forget" - If you don't outlive your announcer, you have to unsubscribe
manually to be GC'd.


>> make it a strict superset of what if found in Core already,
>> fix WeakRegistry so each resource registered for an object actually gets
>> finalized, which again means... etc... Oh, and hope it'd end up good
>> enough that it'd warrant inclusion:)
> I would love to see a bit more enhancement on Announcement.
I described the issue with WeakRegistry>>toFinalize:send:to:with: in a
previous mail, it's only related in the term that Levente's
implementation uses it. (I encountered it while writing some tests for
weak subscriptions)
Reading Squeak-Dev, it seems he's picked it up, and there's a version in
the Inbox, I'll be reviewing that :D

As for the Announcement implementation, AXAnnouncements follow what was
described in the post of Vassily more closely, which both make use of
them more portable, as well as provide some other benefits, the ones
which seems of most value to me is the simple implementation of weak
subscriptions, plus support for registering actions taking more than the
announcement itself as a parameter for handlers.
http://n4.nabble.com/Notifications-of-windows-opening-closing-focus-td1296554i20.html#a1296592 
(where the above quote is taken from) contains a relevant discussion as
to why I find these features useful.
Changing Lukas' implementation as provided in Core to do the same, (I
think) you'd loose much of its simple elegance

The one thing I'm ambivalent about regarding VW/AX implementation vs.
Lukas', is whether when:do: should be setting the block as subscriber
(VW) instead of the instance sending when:do: (Lukas).
When using this method together with strong subscriptions in VW, I
almost always ended up using when:do:for: so I could register the
instance as subscriber instead.

Cheers,
Henry


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Re: Why a package management system

Nicolas Cellier
In reply to this post by garduino
2010/2/24 Germán Arduino <[hidden email]>:

>
>
> 2010/2/24 Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>
>>
>> Thanks for your steady building approach
>>
>
> +111111111111111
> This is the attitude, Thanks Dale!
>

Are you in base 1r from Cuis 2.0 ?

Nicolas

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