Why does formater remove the last period?

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Why does formater remove the last period?

askoh
Administrator
It seems to be as old as Smalltalk. What is the rational for removing the last period in a method?

Thanks,
Aik-Siong Koh
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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

It's a configurable setting,

 

 

-Boris

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of askoh
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 8:45 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [vwnc] Why does formater remove the last period?

 

It seems to be as old as Smalltalk. What is the rational for removing the last period in a method?

 

Thanks,

Aik-Siong Koh

 

 

 

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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

askoh
Administrator
I am interested in the history behind it. Which language natural or computer has this kind of behavior? Who invented it? Why? Does anybody find it useful?

Thanks,
Aik-Siong Koh
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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

jarober
Well, it's probably because of the fact that period in Smalltalk is a separator, not a terminator.  Thus, at the end of the method, it's superfluous

On Dec 17, 2012, at 9:06 PM, askoh wrote:

> I am interested in the history behind it. Which language natural or computer
> has this kind of behavior? Who invented it? Why? Does anybody find it
> useful?
>
> Thanks,
> Aik-Siong Koh
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Why-does-formater-remove-the-last-period-tp4659720p4659724.html
> Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

James Robertson
http://www.jarober.com
[hidden email]




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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

Georg Heeg
In reply to this post by askoh
This behavior is actually pretty old. It dates back at least to Algol 60
where the semicolon stands between statements but is not allowed before the
END symbol. PL/I did not have this behavior, though, but many Algol
successors have it like Pascal, Modula and C.

Georg

Georg Heeg eK, Dortmund und Köthen, HR Dortmund A 12812
Wallstraße 22, 06366 Köthen
Tel. +49-3496-214328, Fax +49-3496-214712


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag
von askoh
Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2012 03:06
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Why does formater remove the last period?

I am interested in the history behind it. Which language natural or computer
has this kind of behavior? Who invented it? Why? Does anybody find it
useful?

Thanks,
Aik-Siong Koh



--
View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/Why-does-formater-remove-the-last-period-tp4659720p465
9724.html
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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

reinier van oosten-2
I agree with Georg on this matter. At the conception of Algol60 we worked with80 column punch cards. The boundary of a statement was the end of a card. The semicolon as a boundary was revolutionary at that time.

The link between Algol60 and Smalltalk is actually a very short one. In the early 60-ties Christen Nygard needed for simulation interruptible procedures that could be assigned to variables. He used Algol60 as his vehicle. He defined a single extra concept completely in line with the procedure concept of Algol60. He gave it the name "Class". This language was called Simula67. Of course, the semicolon as statement delimiter in stead of statement closure, was maintained.
Simula on its turn was one of the most inspiring languages for Alan Kay in his Dynabook project. In this project he developed a new language: Smalltalk (first version: Smalltalk72).

How far ahead Alan Kay was, is the time it actually costed to implement the real dynabook: another 40 years. Yhe name of the first realization: iPad.

Reinier van Oosten
On 18 Dec 2012, at 8:18 AM, Georg Heeg wrote:

> This behavior is actually pretty old. It dates back at least to Algol 60
> where the semicolon stands between statements but is not allowed before the
> END symbol. PL/I did not have this behavior, though, but many Algol
> successors have it like Pascal, Modula and C.
>
> Georg
>
> Georg Heeg eK, Dortmund und Köthen, HR Dortmund A 12812
> Wallstraße 22, 06366 Köthen
> Tel. +49-3496-214328, Fax +49-3496-214712
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag
> von askoh
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2012 03:06
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Why does formater remove the last period?
>
> I am interested in the history behind it. Which language natural or computer
> has this kind of behavior? Who invented it? Why? Does anybody find it
> useful?
>
> Thanks,
> Aik-Siong Koh
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/Why-does-formater-remove-the-last-period-tp4659720p465
> 9724.html
> Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

davidbuck
As mentioned in previous responses, the period is a statement separator not a terminator.  In fact, the original Smalltalk-80 considered a period at the end of a method to be a compile error.  This restriction was eventually lifted but it lasted for a long time in early versions of Smalltalk.

The other separator in Smalltalk is ; for cascades.  Would you consider this to be proper syntax?

    ^(Array new: 1)
          at: 1 put: #hello;
          yourself;

(note the ending semicolon)

David Buck


Reinier van Oosten wrote:
I agree with Georg on this matter. At the conception of Algol60 we worked with80 column punch cards. The boundary of a statement was the end of a card. The semicolon as a boundary was revolutionary at that time.

The link between Algol60 and Smalltalk is actually a very short one. In the early 60-ties Christen Nygard needed for simulation interruptible procedures that could be assigned to variables. He used Algol60 as his vehicle. He defined a single extra concept completely in line with the procedure concept of Algol60. He gave it the name "Class". This language was called Simula67. Of course, the semicolon as statement delimiter in stead of statement closure, was maintained. 
Simula on its turn was one of the most inspiring languages for Alan Kay in his Dynabook project. In this project he developed a new language: Smalltalk (first version: Smalltalk72). 

How far ahead Alan Kay was, is the time it actually costed to implement the real dynabook: another 40 years. Yhe name of the first realization: iPad.

Reinier van Oosten
On 18 Dec 2012, at 8:18 AM, Georg Heeg wrote:

  
This behavior is actually pretty old. It dates back at least to Algol 60
where the semicolon stands between statements but is not allowed before the
END symbol. PL/I did not have this behavior, though, but many Algol
successors have it like Pascal, Modula and C.

Georg

Georg Heeg eK, Dortmund und Köthen, HR Dortmund A 12812
Wallstraße 22, 06366 Köthen
Tel. +49-3496-214328, Fax +49-3496-214712


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] Im Auftrag
von askoh
Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2012 03:06
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Why does formater remove the last period?

I am interested in the history behind it. Which language natural or computer
has this kind of behavior? Who invented it? Why? Does anybody find it
useful?

Thanks,
Aik-Siong Koh



--
View this message in context:
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9724.html
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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)
In reply to this post by reinier van oosten-2

I still like the period at the end of the method to not have to add one when modifying code by adding more lines, much of it being available has to do with personal preferences.

 

-Boris

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Buck
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 6:42 PM
To: VWNC NC
Cc: askoh
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Why does formater remove the last period?

 

As mentioned in previous responses, the period is a statement separator not a terminator.  In fact, the original Smalltalk-80 considered a period at the end of a method to be a compile error.  This restriction was eventually lifted but it lasted for a long time in early versions of Smalltalk.

The other separator in Smalltalk is ; for cascades.  Would you consider this to be proper syntax?

    ^(Array new: 1)
          at: 1 put: #hello;
          yourself;

(note the ending semicolon)

David Buck


Reinier van Oosten wrote:

I agree with Georg on this matter. At the conception of Algol60 we worked with80 column punch cards. The boundary of a statement was the end of a card. The semicolon as a boundary was revolutionary at that time.
 
The link between Algol60 and Smalltalk is actually a very short one. In the early 60-ties Christen Nygard needed for simulation interruptible procedures that could be assigned to variables. He used Algol60 as his vehicle. He defined a single extra concept completely in line with the procedure concept of Algol60. He gave it the name "Class". This language was called Simula67. Of course, the semicolon as statement delimiter in stead of statement closure, was maintained. 
Simula on its turn was one of the most inspiring languages for Alan Kay in his Dynabook project. In this project he developed a new language: Smalltalk (first version: Smalltalk72). 
 
How far ahead Alan Kay was, is the time it actually costed to implement the real dynabook: another 40 years. Yhe name of the first realization: iPad.
 
Reinier van Oosten
On 18 Dec 2012, at 8:18 AM, Georg Heeg wrote:
 
  
This behavior is actually pretty old. It dates back at least to Algol 60
where the semicolon stands between statements but is not allowed before the
END symbol. PL/I did not have this behavior, though, but many Algol
successors have it like Pascal, Modula and C.
 
Georg
 
Georg Heeg eK, Dortmund und Köthen, HR Dortmund A 12812
Wallstraße 22, 06366 Köthen
Tel. +49-3496-214328, Fax +49-3496-214712
 
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] Im Auftrag
von askoh
Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2012 03:06
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Why does formater remove the last period?
 
I am interested in the history behind it. Which language natural or computer
has this kind of behavior? Who invented it? Why? Does anybody find it
useful?
 
Thanks,
Aik-Siong Koh
 
 
 
--
View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/Why-does-formater-remove-the-last-period-tp4659720p465
9724.html
Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

askoh
Administrator
That is my complaint about a missing period at the end. Pasting new lines at the end is made a bit inconvenient. So there is no fundamental reason not to use an ending period. Right?

Thanks,
Aik-Siong Koh
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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

askoh
Administrator
In reply to this post by davidbuck
Can we say semicolon is a separator, while period is a terminator?

^(Array new: 1)
          at: 1 put: #hello;
          yourself.

even

^self.

look good.

Thanks,
Aik-Siong Koh
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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)
In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)
No reason not to have one, I've been using this pattern for years and I seem to recall Alan Knight doing the same.

-Boris

On 2012-12-18, at 22:37, "askoh" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That is my complaint about a missing period at the end. Pasting new lines at
> the end is made a bit inconvenient. So there is no fundamental reason not to
> use an ending period. Right?
>
> Thanks,
> Aik-Siong Koh
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Why-does-formater-remove-the-last-period-tp4659720p4659944.html
> Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

Claus Kick
In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)
At the Smalltalk shop I was working for, the final period was configurable. I always kept it in because  every time I had to deal with someone elses code, or copied stuff from Workspaces into CHB, I always and every single time forgot about the missing period.

-- 
Claus Kick

"Wenn Sie mich suchen: Ich halte mich in der Nähe des Wahnsinns auf. 
Genauer gesagt auf der schmalen Linie zwischen Wahnsinn und Panik. 
Gleich um die Ecke von Todesangst, nicht weit weg von Irrwitz und Idiotie."

"If you are looking for me: I am somewhere near to lunacy. 
More clearly, on the narrow path between lunacy and panic. 
Right around the corner of  fear of death, 
not far away from idiocy and insanity."


Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Dezember 2012 um 03:29 Uhr
Von: "Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs" <[hidden email]>
An: "David Buck" <[hidden email]>, "VWNC NC" <[hidden email]>
Cc: askoh <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Why does formater remove the last period?

I still like the period at the end of the method to not have to add one when modifying code by adding more lines, much of it being available has to do with personal preferences.

 

-Boris

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Buck
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 6:42 PM
To: VWNC NC
Cc: askoh
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Why does formater remove the last period?

 

As mentioned in previous responses, the period is a statement separator not a terminator.  In fact, the original Smalltalk-80 considered a period at the end of a method to be a compile error.  This restriction was eventually lifted but it lasted for a long time in early versions of Smalltalk.

The other separator in Smalltalk is ; for cascades.  Would you consider this to be proper syntax?

    ^(Array new: 1)
          at: 1 put: #hello;
          yourself;

(note the ending semicolon)

David Buck


Reinier van Oosten wrote:

I agree with Georg on this matter. At the conception of Algol60 we worked with80 column punch cards. The boundary of a statement was the end of a card. The semicolon as a boundary was revolutionary at that time.
 
The link between Algol60 and Smalltalk is actually a very short one. In the early 60-ties Christen Nygard needed for simulation interruptible procedures that could be assigned to variables. He used Algol60 as his vehicle. He defined a single extra concept completely in line with the procedure concept of Algol60. He gave it the name "Class". This language was called Simula67. Of course, the semicolon as statement delimiter in stead of statement closure, was maintained. 
Simula on its turn was one of the most inspiring languages for Alan Kay in his Dynabook project. In this project he developed a new language: Smalltalk (first version: Smalltalk72). 
 
How far ahead Alan Kay was, is the time it actually costed to implement the real dynabook: another 40 years. Yhe name of the first realization: iPad.
 
Reinier van Oosten
On 18 Dec 2012, at 8:18 AM, Georg Heeg wrote:
 
  
This behavior is actually pretty old. It dates back at least to Algol 60
where the semicolon stands between statements but is not allowed before the
END symbol. PL/I did not have this behavior, though, but many Algol
successors have it like Pascal, Modula and C.
 
Georg
 
Georg Heeg eK, Dortmund und Köthen, HR Dortmund A 12812
Wallstraße 22, 06366 Köthen
Tel. +49-3496-214328, Fax +49-3496-214712
 
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: vwnc-bounces@... [mailto:vwnc-bounces@...] Im Auftrag
von askoh
Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2012 03:06
An: vwnc@...
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Why does formater remove the last period?
 
I am interested in the history behind it. Which language natural or computer
has this kind of behavior? Who invented it? Why? Does anybody find it
useful?
 
Thanks,
Aik-Siong Koh
 
 
 
--
View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/Why-does-formater-remove-the-last-period-tp4659720p465
9724.html
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Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5957 - Release Date: 12/13/12
 
 
  

 




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Re: Why does formater remove the last period?

Niall Ross
In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)
Dear Boris et al,

>I still like the period at the end of the method to not have to add one when modifying code by adding more lines,
>
I partly agree with you, but with an exception when the final statement
is an unqualified return (and so must be edited if more statements are
added).  Thus I normally write

    myMethod
       ...
       self doLastThing.
but
    myMethod
       ...
       ^self doLastThing

if there's a return.

>much of it being available has to do with personal preferences.
>  
>
I guess this display of my personal preferences just confirms the truth
of that.

             Yours faithfully
                   Niall Ross

>-Boris
>
>From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Buck
>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 6:42 PM
>To: VWNC NC
>Cc: askoh
>Subject: Re: [vwnc] Why does formater remove the last period?
>
>As mentioned in previous responses, the period is a statement separator not a terminator.  In fact, the original Smalltalk-80 considered a period at the end of a method to be a compile error.  This restriction was eventually lifted but it lasted for a long time in early versions of Smalltalk.
>
>The other separator in Smalltalk is ; for cascades.  Would you consider this to be proper syntax?
>
>    ^(Array new: 1)
>          at: 1 put: #hello;
>          yourself;
>
>(note the ending semicolon)
>
>David Buck
>
>
>Reinier van Oosten wrote:
>
>I agree with Georg on this matter. At the conception of Algol60 we worked with80 column punch cards. The boundary of a statement was the end of a card. The semicolon as a boundary was revolutionary at that time.
>
>
>
>The link between Algol60 and Smalltalk is actually a very short one. In the early 60-ties Christen Nygard needed for simulation interruptible procedures that could be assigned to variables. He used Algol60 as his vehicle. He defined a single extra concept completely in line with the procedure concept of Algol60. He gave it the name "Class". This language was called Simula67. Of course, the semicolon as statement delimiter in stead of statement closure, was maintained.
>
>Simula on its turn was one of the most inspiring languages for Alan Kay in his Dynabook project. In this project he developed a new language: Smalltalk (first version: Smalltalk72).
>
>
>
>How far ahead Alan Kay was, is the time it actually costed to implement the real dynabook: another 40 years. Yhe name of the first realization: iPad.
>
>
>
>Reinier van Oosten
>
>On 18 Dec 2012, at 8:18 AM, Georg Heeg wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>This behavior is actually pretty old. It dates back at least to Algol 60
>
>where the semicolon stands between statements but is not allowed before the
>
>END symbol. PL/I did not have this behavior, though, but many Algol
>
>successors have it like Pascal, Modula and C.
>
>
>
>Georg
>
>
>
>Georg Heeg eK, Dortmund und Köthen, HR Dortmund A 12812
>
>Wallstraße 22, 06366 Köthen
>
>Tel. +49-3496-214328, Fax +49-3496-214712
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>
>Von: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag
>
>von askoh
>
>Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Dezember 2012 03:06
>
>An: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Why does formater remove the last period?
>
>
>
>I am interested in the history behind it. Which language natural or computer
>
>has this kind of behavior? Who invented it? Why? Does anybody find it
>
>useful?
>
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Aik-Siong Koh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>
>View this message in context:
>
>http://forum.world.st/Why-does-formater-remove-the-last-period-tp4659720p465
>
>9724.html
>
>Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>vwnc mailing list
>
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>
>http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
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>
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>
>http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>vwnc mailing list
>
>[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----
>
>No virus found in this message.
>
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>
>
>Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5957 - Release Date: 12/13/12
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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