Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
 
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I have been using amber since about the beginning and something is getting on my nerves. I have been away for a few months, and came back, and could not find out how to install amber.
-- For example, I downloaded a zip, and remembered the command 'amber serve', but I didn't know what directories were being served. From memory, I remembered the 'amber-examples' git project, so I installed that. Then I had to move the amber folder into vendor/amber. Then I ran the start.bat and it still didn't launch. From memory, again, I remembered that bower commands needed to be issued, so I tried running 'bower init' from the amber directory. Nothing. So I tried 'npm install bower', and then 'npm install bower -g', and I'm about to try it again, but seriously: Back in "the day" you just downloaded a release and double clicked a batch file and that was *it*. Why can't amber be that simple again? My 2 cents. P.s. I use windows 7. You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
<zenchess@gmail.com>
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Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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First thing is, amber changed its philosophy from "download and unzip" to "be a dependency for a project" (that is, putting project first, not amber first).
Second thing is, we want to make creating amber projects streamlined, so all you will need to do after installing amber from npm globally (npm install -g amber; later npm install -g amber-cli) will be to run: amber create myproject But we're not there yet so you must do what 'amber create' would do for you: mkdir, cd, bower init, bower install amber --save, mkdir src, make index.html. Herby Zenchess wrote: > I have been using amber since about the beginning and something is > getting on my nerves. I have been away for a few months, and came > back, and could not find out how to install amber. > > For example, I downloaded a zip, and remembered the command 'amber > serve', but I didn't know what directories were being served. From > memory, I remembered the 'amber-examples' git project, so I installed > that. T hen I had to move the amber folder into vendor/amber. Then I > ran the start.bat and it still didn't launch. > > From memory, again, I remembered that bower commands needed to be > issued, so I tried running 'bower init' from the amber directory. > Nothing. So I tried 'npm install bower', and then 'npm install bower > -g', and I'm about to try it again, but seriously: > > > Back in "the day" you just downloaded a release and double clicked a > batch file and that was *it*. Why can't amber be that simple again? > > My 2 cents. > > P.s. I use windows 7. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by Jacob Wagner
Thanks for letting us know that Z.
I feel your pain too!
-- This release increased the complexity but we’re polishing the bumps Our job now is to work on these issues so the end result would be something that: 1. can play nice with the idea of downloading one thing and start it and bam, you’re good to go and 2. you’re a power user that knows how to use bower, yo and grunt and you can flexibly start from there making sense with a couple of commands and no extra complications Once have that we’ll have blog posts, docs and screencasts so anyone has a gentle intro for starting their next Amber project Today I was thinking on doing the introductory screencast but I had to postpone it due to this little problems (grunt-init complaining about no require.js). The phase that crossed my mind over and over was: “Amber is going to help you to make web development to make sense again” Problem is that we really need to remove these silly show stoppers Guys? can we get our teeth on that right? On Apr 12, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Zenchess <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
Thanks Zenchess
for continuing to raise the point... On 4/12/14, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote: > First thing is, amber changed its philosophy from "download and unzip" to > "be a dependency for a project" (that is, putting project first, not amber > first). This 'first thing' has to be told to people. I added this issue https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber-documentation/issues/7 > Second thing is, we want to make creating amber projects streamlined, so all > you will need to do after installing amber from npm globally (npm install -g > amber; later npm install -g amber-cli) will be to run: > > amber create myproject > > But we're not there yet so you must do what 'amber create' would do for you: > mkdir, cd, bower init, bower install amber --save, mkdir src, make > index.html. This is what http://docs.amber-lang.net/getting-started.html tells people. It gets you started in the sense that the Helios IDE comes up and you can start coding. And the code is saved in the src folder. BUT the code is NOT reloaded in case you reload the web page! 'Quick start' is only a partial 'Start' and leads to a show stopper. People would expect that code saved is no only on the hard disk but comes back when you reload the web page. I just filed this as an issue here https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber-documentation/issues/8 This lead Philippe to create https://github.com/philippeback/amber-kickstart last week and me forking it and elaborating it with https://github.com/hhzl/amber-kickstart this week. The latter one is at least to a part a download and unzip approach and has been tested by Tim M. yesterday who had been 'lurking' before and now by the help of it can use Amber again. Thank you again for the feedback, and give https://github.com/hhzl/amber-kickstar a try, please, in case you do not have a working Amber 0.12.4 setup yet. --Hannes > Herby > > Zenchess wrote: >> I have been using amber since about the beginning and something is >> getting on my nerves. I have been away for a few months, and came >> back, and could not find out how to install amber. >> >> For example, I downloaded a zip, and remembered the command 'amber >> serve', but I didn't know what directories were being served. From >> memory, I remembered the 'amber-examples' git project, so I installed >> that. T > hen I had to move the amber folder into vendor/amber. Then I >> ran the start.bat and it still didn't launch. >> >> From memory, again, I remembered that bower commands needed to be >> issued, so I tried running 'bower init' from the amber directory. >> Nothing. So I tried 'npm install bower', and then 'npm install bower >> -g', and I'm about to try it again, but seriously: >> >> >> Back in "the day" you just downloaded a release and double clicked a >> batch file and that was *it*. Why can't amber be that simple again? >> >> My 2 cents. >> >> P.s. I use windows 7. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "amber-lang" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an email to [hidden email] >> <mailto:[hidden email]>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by sebastianconcept
On 4/12/14, sebastian <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thanks for letting us know that Z. > > I feel your pain too! > > This release increased the complexity but we're polishing the bumps > > Our job now is to work on these issues so the end result would be something > that: > > 1. can play nice with the idea of downloading one thing and start it and > bam, you're good to go and > 2. you're a power user that knows how to use bower, yo and grunt and you can > flexibly start from there making sense with a couple of commands and no > extra complications > > Once have that we'll have blog posts, docs and screencasts so anyone has a > gentle intro for starting their next Amber project > > Today I was thinking on doing the introductory screencast but I had to > postpone it due to this little problems (grunt-init complaining about no > require.js). Sebastian, why do you need grunt-init in an introductory screencast? May I ask you to answer in a separate thread? --Hannes > The phase that crossed my mind over and over was: > > "Amber is going to help you to make web development to make sense again" > > Problem is that we really need to remove these silly show stoppers > > Guys? can we get our teeth on that right? > > > > > On Apr 12, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Zenchess <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> I have been using amber since about the beginning and something is >> getting on my nerves. I have been away for a few months, and came back, >> and could not find out how to install amber. >> >> For example, I downloaded a zip, and remembered the command 'amber >> serve', but I didn't know what directories were being served. From >> memory, I remembered the 'amber-examples' git project, so I installed >> that. Then I had to move the amber folder into vendor/amber. Then I ran >> the start.bat and it still didn't launch. >> >> From memory, again, I remembered that bower commands needed to be >> issued, so I tried running 'bower init' from the amber directory. >> Nothing. So I tried 'npm install bower', and then 'npm install bower -g', >> and I'm about to try it again, but seriously: >> >> >> Back in "the day" you just downloaded a release and double clicked a >> batch file and that was *it*. Why can't amber be that simple again? >> >> My 2 cents. >> >> P.s. I use windows 7. >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "amber-lang" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [hidden email]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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Just hot off the encoder: http://youtu.be/rszDKuEuAvg
http://youtu.be/rszDKuEuAvg&nohtml5=1 if you cannot get the HD version (kind of general issue with YT at the moment...)
Phil You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by Hannes Hirzel
On Apr 12, 2014, at 7:42 PM, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sebastian, why do you need Don’t know if I’m getting your question right. I want to show a step by step thing so they can feel da pawaaaaa Making them feel they can start powerful things in one shot is the right impression Did you saw that Google is using the superhero metaphor for Angular? That’s not a coincidence. And the idea is that if the technology (anyone and any product/service actually) is really good, the metaphor should feel less imaginary and more literal Can we do that? I don’t know. Can we? <— rhetorical, no need to answer that
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Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by philippeback
[hidden email] wrote: > Just hot off the encoder: http://youtu.be/rszDKuEuAvg > > http://youtu.be/rszDKuEuAvg&nohtml5=1 if you cannot get the HD version > (kind of general issue with YT at the moment...) I have looked the last screencast... there are handful of misconceptions and/or inefficiencies. - js/st is deprecated. In 0.12.4, which is released at last, you only use src for both .js and .st and 'namespace/_source' need not to be mapped. - If you have skeleton of the project, it is not needed to include bower install amber --save as the install step. Instead, you should a) provide .gitignore that ignores bower_components (that is crucial anyway); b) run bower install amber --save in your working copy; that creates bower.json file with amber saved as dependency c) commit .gitgnore and bower.json to the kickstart repo After that, you just clone and run 'bower install', the generic way to say 'install all my dependencies, please'. - cli that is used is not t he one in locally-installed amber; showing the cli directory inside bower_components/amber creates wrong impression that amber cli and repl are tied to that installation. No, they are run from the globally installed amber you installed via npm install -g at the beginning. In fact, cli and related things will be removed from bower package 'amber' completely. They are of no use there, bower package is to bring things needed in the page itself. npm install -g is there to install the cli tool, which will be renamed to amber-cli to clearly show the separation. - In Helios, when you need to look up for the selector or class present in source code, there is no need to Ctrl+space, f, r or Ctrl+space, f. c. Just press Ctrl, hold it, and click on that selector or class itself in the source code of the method. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 2:04 AM, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thx for looking.
kickstart was done pre 12.4, so, of course. Now, how is src to be used/specified properly?
Clear. b) run bower install amber --save in your working copy; that creates bower.json file with amber saved as dependency Indeed nicer.
Well, someone looks, and cli happens to be at the top of the list, people look in there. Indeed. amber-cli would be a better name for the backend thing. That's what you get when two different things are named the same.
That will be a good thing.
Thanks for pointer. This was driving me mad. And so will any newcomer. And we need a search box ala Spotlight (just like in Pharo). Next episode with a better version of all this on 0.12.4 :-) Phil
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Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
Thank you for the great feedback Herby. I took note of it here
https://github.com/hhzl/amber-kickstart/issues/1 and will address the issues in an updated version of https://github.com/hhzl/amber-kickstart --Hannes On 4/13/14, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > [hidden email] wrote: >> Just hot off the encoder: http://youtu.be/rszDKuEuAvg >> >> http://youtu.be/rszDKuEuAvg&nohtml5=1 if you cannot get the HD version >> (kind of general issue with YT at the moment...) > > I have looked the last screencast... there are handful of misconceptions > and/or inefficiencies. > > - js/st is deprecated. In 0.12.4, which is released at last, you only use > src for both .js and .st and 'namespace/_source' need not to be mapped. > > - If you have skeleton of the project, it is not needed to include bower > install amber --save as the install step. Instead, you should > a) provide .gitignore that ignores bower_components (that is crucial > anyway); > b) run bower install amber --save in your working copy; that creates > bower.json file with amber saved as dependency > c) commit .gitgnore and bower.json to the kickstart repo > After that, you just clone and run 'bower install', the generic way to say > 'install all my dependencies, please'. > > - cli that is used is not t > he one in locally-installed amber; showing the cli directory inside > bower_components/amber creates wrong impression that amber cli and repl are > tied to that installation. No, they are run from the globally installed > amber you installed via npm install -g at the beginning. > > In fact, cli and related things will be removed from bower package 'amber' > completely. They are of no use there, bower package is to bring things > needed in the page itself. npm install -g is there to install the cli tool, > which will be renamed to amber-cli to clearly show the separation. > > - In Helios, when you need to look up for the selector or class present in > source code, there is no need to Ctrl+space, f, r or Ctrl+space, f. c. Just > press Ctrl, hold it, and click on that selector or class itself in the > source code of the method. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
Hi,
On 13 Apr 2014, at 02:04, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > [hidden email] wrote: >> Just hot off the encoder: http://youtu.be/rszDKuEuAvg >> >> http://youtu.be/rszDKuEuAvg&nohtml5=1 if you cannot get the HD version (kind of general issue with YT at the moment...) > > I have looked the last screencast... there are handful of misconceptions and/or inefficiencies. > > - js/st is deprecated. In 0.12.4, which is released at last, you only use src for both .js and .st and 'namespace/_source' need not to be mapped. > > - If you have skeleton of the project, it is not needed to include bower install amber --save as the install step. Instead, you should > a) provide .gitignore that ignores bower_components (that is crucial anyway); > b) run bower install amber --save in your working copy; that creates bower.json file with amber saved as dependency > c) commit .gitgnore and bower.json to the kickstart repo > After that, you just clone and run 'bower install', the generic way to say 'install all my dependencies, please'. > > - cli that is used is not t > he one in locally-installed amber; showing the cli directory inside bower_components/amber creates wrong impression that amber cli and repl are tied to that installation. No, they are run from the globally installed amber you installed via npm install -g at the beginning. > > In fact, cli and related things will be removed from bower package 'amber' completely. They are of no use there, bower package is to bring things needed in the page itself. npm install -g is there to install the cli tool, which will be renamed to amber-cli to clearly show the separation. > > - In Helios, when you need to look up for the selector or class present in source code, there is no need to Ctrl+space, f, r or Ctrl+space, f. c. Just press Ctrl, hold it, and click on that selector or class itself in the source code of the method. Very cool. Except on Mac, because Ctrl+left click = Linux/Windows right click. You need to disable the browser's context menu by doing `event preventDefault`. Should we remap this to alt/option + left click, or prevent the context menu? best, Siemen > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by Jacob Wagner
Siemen Baader <[hidden email]>napísal/a: Hi, On 13 Apr 2014, at 02:04, Herby Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote: > - In Helios, when you need to look up for the selector or class present in source code, there is no need to Ctrl+space, f, r or Ctrl+space, f. c. Just press Ctrl, hold it, and click on that selector or class itself in the source code of the method. Very cool. Except on Mac, because Ctrl+left click = Linux/Windows right click. You need to disable the browser's context menu by doing `event preventDefault`. Should we remap this to alt/option + left click, or prevent the context menu? Nicolas was implementing this, and he uses Mac, so I presume it's already working somehow there as well. Herby best, Siemen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by philippeback
Nice screencast.Good to see a complete development set-up
-- described. If I try to look at it from the point of view of someone new to Amber, the following comes to mind: - Having the right focus in long video's is very difficult. Short video's, focusing on a single point get more views. In addition, they can be easier replaced whenever a detail changes. - People have problems installing Amber because there are many possible ways to install the dependencies, some of which work. Just saying: install git and bower simply doesn't work. Prescribing one way also doesn't work as people don't start with clean machines. Package management on a mac is interesting, with brew, fink and macports interfering in troublesome ways. - Showing all kinds of extra software that I don't have installed is only confusing. Stephan You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
Herby Vojčík writes: > Should we remap this to alt/option + left click, or prevent the > context menu? I would simply prevent the context menu. > > Nicolas was implementing this, and he uses Mac, so I presume it's > already working somehow there as well. I do have a mac, but I run Ubuntu on it :P Cheers, Nico -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
Who ever updates videos? > - People have problems installing Amber because there are many The party line is npm and bower (and soon grunt init).. > Just saying: install git and bower simply doesn't work. Yes, one can simply download a zip and not care about Git at all in fact. Prescribing I can do one on my mac. Macports, fink and brew are indeed annoying when used together. > - Showing all kinds of extra software that I don't have installed All kinds? Now, a list of URLs in the description of the video would be useful. I am learning this as well BTW. I'd love to have the game engine examples to work with the new version. Phil > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. |
Re: Why is amber so confusing nowadays to setup for the first time?
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
Thanks for the feedback Stephan!
On Apr 13, 2014, at 8:02 AM, Stephan Eggermont > <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, we’re trying to learn how to produce them. I plan to share mine unlisted (so YouTube doesn’t show them on the channel until I publish) So people in this list can see it first and I can be embarrassing only for you guys :) Hopefully in a couple of iterations we can get it right. If the list grows we can do an inner circle for that, I don’t think our size requires that just jet, if I get too many tomatoes in my face I’ll let you know Also i because it would be great to have Tim and Stephan feedback and the one from the others Tim’s and Stephans that aren’t yet expressing theirs Exactly. This is the epicentre of the issue. We are figuring out the best way before recommending and showing how things should be done.
…yet. We are doing something about this right now. We’ll see.
by all kinds of extra software you mean grunt, bower, yo? I would like to hear you elaborating on that point because that’s the reaction other might have
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In reply to this post by philippeback
Thank you for the screencast showing the not-so-simple scenario to get an Amber development setup running.
-- I am looking forward to the day when all this is packaged in a Setup.exe or greatly simplified. For newbies to Amber, all of that setup and plumbing is a huge deterrent. The excellent Interactive Tutorial at http://amber-lang.net/learn.html gets people interested. I've sent many people to that intro-to-Smalltalk, but then they just give up on taking it further. The YouTube video is a great help, in the interim. Good stuff. Peter On Saturday, 12 April 2014 15:54:02 UTC-7, [hidden email] wrote:
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