Why seaside really sucks! COMMMMMMMENTS are MISSING

> This is not easy for me to say that because I appreciate the work of
> Avi, Lukas and Philippe.
> But I'm sorry to say that but seaside sucks! Not because of the code
> or the concepts.
> But because there is really not enough comments. Really! It is really
> difficult to understand a simple
> method is doing and if it makes sense to specialize it.
>
> This is TERRIBLE since I think that I'm a good programmer but seaside
> code prevents me to
> be fully efficient. I have to guess try and error and guess again. I
> have to ask stupid questions to the mailing-list
> while I would prefer to use it for  interesting questions. I think
> that seaside goes even against the philosophy of
> Smalltalk (a system that someone alone can understand) because this
> total lacks of
> comments is TRAPPING me. I cannot use my skills full speed. Thanks
> what a great feeling.
> pleaseeeeeee do not tell me to read the code or to use senders! This
> is really the worse answer I can get.
> I always hated this kind of answer on smalltalk forums.
>
> (Please do not ask me what I'm doing to improve the situation because
> people knows what I did
> for seaside and Smalltalk already.)
>
> I think that as a community we should do something especially since we
> have monticello
> and comments could be easily merged.
>
> I pushed a lot seaside and I'm trying to push it again further but
> come on we should WAKE UP!
> I would really like that people with knowledge helps improving the
> situation.
>
> So if you think that seaside is cool and it is worth more, spend 30
> min of your precious time and
> add comments, help lukas and the other to make Seaside really a
> habitable piece of code.
>
> Comments are for people that do not know or remember. So if you really
> want to make the community
> grow you know what you should do. But may be it is better that seaside
> stays a cool program for a nice and
> private club after all.
>
> Stef
>
> PS: I should say that filelibrary is a good start at documenting a
> functionality. May be adding method comments
> would help there too.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
>
> __________ Information NOD32 2156 (20070330) __________
>
> Ce message a ete verifie par NOD32 Antivirus System.
> http://www.nod32.com
>
>
>

> This is not easy for me to say that because I appreciate the work  
> of Avi, Lukas and Philippe.
> But I'm sorry to say that but seaside sucks! Not because of the  
> code or the concepts.
> But because there is really not enough comments. Really! It is  
> really difficult to understand a simple
> method is doing and if it makes sense to specialize it.
>
> This is TERRIBLE since I think that I'm a good programmer but  
> seaside code prevents me to
> be fully efficient. I have to guess try and error and guess again.  
> I have to ask stupid questions to the mailing-list
> while I would prefer to use it for  interesting questions. I think  
> that seaside goes even against the philosophy of
> Smalltalk (a system that someone alone can understand) because this  
> total lacks of
> comments is TRAPPING me. I cannot use my skills full speed. Thanks  
> what a great feeling.
> pleaseeeeeee do not tell me to read the code or to use senders!  
> This is really the worse answer I can get.
> I always hated this kind of answer on smalltalk forums.
>
> (Please do not ask me what I'm doing to improve the situation  
> because people knows what I did
> for seaside and Smalltalk already.)
>
> I think that as a community we should do something especially since  
> we have monticello
> and comments could be easily merged.
>
> I pushed a lot seaside and I'm trying to push it again further but  
> come on we should WAKE UP!
> I would really like that people with knowledge helps improving the  
> situation.
>
> So if you think that seaside is cool and it is worth more, spend 30  
> min of your precious time and
> add comments, help lukas and the other to make Seaside really a  
> habitable piece of code.
>
> Comments are for people that do not know or remember. So if you  
> really want to make the community
> grow you know what you should do. But may be it is better that  
> seaside stays a cool program for a nice and
> private club after all.
>
> Stef
>
> PS: I should say that filelibrary is a good start at documenting a  
> functionality. May be adding method comments
> would help there too.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

> So what are the mechanics of submitting comments?
>
> On Apr 5, 2007, at 1:31 PM, stephane ducasse wrote:
>
> > This is not easy for me to say that because I appreciate the work
> > of Avi, Lukas and Philippe.
> > But I'm sorry to say that but seaside sucks! Not because of the
> > code or the concepts.
> > But because there is really not enough comments. Really! It is
> > really difficult to understand a simple
> > method is doing and if it makes sense to specialize it.
> >
> > This is TERRIBLE since I think that I'm a good programmer but
> > seaside code prevents me to
> > be fully efficient. I have to guess try and error and guess again.
> > I have to ask stupid questions to the mailing-list
> > while I would prefer to use it for  interesting questions. I think
> > that seaside goes even against the philosophy of
> > Smalltalk (a system that someone alone can understand) because this
> > total lacks of
> > comments is TRAPPING me. I cannot use my skills full speed. Thanks
> > what a great feeling.
> > pleaseeeeeee do not tell me to read the code or to use senders!
> > This is really the worse answer I can get.
> > I always hated this kind of answer on smalltalk forums.
> >
> > (Please do not ask me what I'm doing to improve the situation
> > because people knows what I did
> > for seaside and Smalltalk already.)
> >
> > I think that as a community we should do something especially since
> > we have monticello
> > and comments could be easily merged.
> >
> > I pushed a lot seaside and I'm trying to push it again further but
> > come on we should WAKE UP!
> > I would really like that people with knowledge helps improving the
> > situation.
> >
> > So if you think that seaside is cool and it is worth more, spend 30
> > min of your precious time and
> > add comments, help lukas and the other to make Seaside really a
> > habitable piece of code.
> >
> > Comments are for people that do not know or remember. So if you
> > really want to make the community
> > grow you know what you should do. But may be it is better that
> > seaside stays a cool program for a nice and
> > private club after all.
> >
> > Stef
> >
> > PS: I should say that filelibrary is a good start at documenting a
> > functionality. May be adding method comments
> > would help there too.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Seaside mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> This is not easy for me to say that because I appreciate the work of
> Avi, Lukas and Philippe.
> But I'm sorry to say that but seaside sucks! Not because of the code
> or the concepts.
> But because there is really not enough comments. Really! It is really
> difficult to understand a simple
> method is doing and if it makes sense to specialize it.
>
> This is TERRIBLE since I think that I'm a good programmer but seaside
> code prevents me to
> be fully efficient. I have to guess try and error and guess again. I
> have to ask stupid questions to the mailing-list
> while I would prefer to use it for  interesting questions. I think
> that seaside goes even against the philosophy of
> Smalltalk (a system that someone alone can understand) because this
> total lacks of
> comments is TRAPPING me. I cannot use my skills full speed. Thanks
> what a great feeling.
> pleaseeeeeee do not tell me to read the code or to use senders! This
> is really the worse answer I can get.
> I always hated this kind of answer on smalltalk forums.
>
> (Please do not ask me what I'm doing to improve the situation because
> people knows what I did
> for seaside and Smalltalk already.)
>
> I think that as a community we should do something especially since we
> have monticello
> and comments could be easily merged.
>
> I pushed a lot seaside and I'm trying to push it again further but
> come on we should WAKE UP!
> I would really like that people with knowledge helps improving the
> situation.
>
> So if you think that seaside is cool and it is worth more, spend 30
> min of your precious time and
> add comments, help lukas and the other to make Seaside really a
> habitable piece of code.
>
> Comments are for people that do not know or remember. So if you really
> want to make the community
> grow you know what you should do. But may be it is better that seaside
> stays a cool program for a nice and
> private club after all.
>
> Stef
>
> PS: I should say that filelibrary is a good start at documenting a
> functionality. May be adding method comments
> would help there too.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre
> de stephane ducasse
> Enviado el: Jueves, 05 de Abril de 2007 17:32
> Para: Seaside - general discussion
> Asunto: [Seaside] Why seaside really sucks! COMMMMMMMENTS are MISSING
>
> This is not easy for me to say that because I appreciate the
> work of Avi, Lukas and Philippe.
> But I'm sorry to say that but seaside sucks! Not because of
> the code or the concepts.
> But because there is really not enough comments. Really! It
> is really difficult to understand a simple method is doing
> and if it makes sense to specialize it.
>
> This is TERRIBLE since I think that I'm a good programmer but
> seaside code prevents me to be fully efficient. I have to
> guess try and error and guess again. I have to ask stupid
> questions to the mailing-list while I would prefer to use it
> for  interesting questions. I think that seaside goes even
> against the philosophy of Smalltalk (a system that someone
> alone can understand) because this total lacks of comments is
> TRAPPING me. I cannot use my skills full speed. Thanks what a
> great feeling.
> pleaseeeeeee do not tell me to read the code or to use
> senders! This is really the worse answer I can get.
> I always hated this kind of answer on smalltalk forums.
>
> (Please do not ask me what I'm doing to improve the situation
> because people knows what I did for seaside and Smalltalk already.)
>
> I think that as a community we should do something especially
> since we have monticello and comments could be easily merged.
>
> I pushed a lot seaside and I'm trying to push it again
> further but come on we should WAKE UP!
> I would really like that people with knowledge helps
> improving the situation.
>
> So if you think that seaside is cool and it is worth more,
> spend 30 min of your precious time and add comments, help
> lukas and the other to make Seaside really a habitable piece of code.
>
> Comments are for people that do not know or remember. So if
> you really want to make the community grow you know what you
> should do. But may be it is better that seaside stays a cool
> program for a nice and private club after all.
>
> Stef
>
> PS: I should say that filelibrary is a good start at
> documenting a functionality. May be adding method comments
> would help there too.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

> Steph you're right but could be good that you also explain that  
> beside a
> Seaside dyagnosys is a dyagnosys for symptoms of unfriendly  
> "uneducative"
> anti-pattern not uncommon in our community.
> I think we have responsibility to "work" this by helping to introduce
> alternatives to those anti-patterns(*) and "best educative  
> practices in
> Smalltalk" and the related "profilaxy of the uneducative anti-
> patterns in
> Smalltalk" for us all and not only on Seaside.
>
> I love criticism is a very healthy thing. A tool for real progress.  
> But one
> must focus on efforts and results.
>
> So Seaside's results don't suck. Documentation (the lak of it)  
> does. All
> un-human cryptic codification sucks. Smalltalk has a really great,  
> great
> chance to prevent that.
>
> I imagine that your intention "behind the scenes" is this and you  
> want to
> take some attention with your comments. Is a valid thecnique of  
> creating
> some apparently controversial subject to awake people. I agree with  
> you in
> that.
>
> And because of that it's also a chance to give two minutes of  
> reflection
> about the value of seeing the code one make and uses as a chance of
> educating perhaps anonymously someone who will read that piece of  
> software
> somwhere in time. Smalltalk has pieces of code that remains for years.
> Others technologies are a lot more volatile than that.
>
> And as I see is not just "to comment" is to undestand that one can  
> use the
> comment as an oportunity to donate glimpses of your experience  
> doing it. An
> oportunity to express it in the most didactic way you can archieve  
> at that
> moment of glimpse you managed to build up and in which you have  
> apprehension
> of something. You have created an "apprehension field".
>
> I you leave a mark of that apprehension field you are assisting  
> someone to
> reproduce that field and perhaps helping to archieve it's own  
> apprehension.
> That will save him/her time, misunderstandings, misleadings and for  
> the same
> price, in case you forget a detail, it can save it to yourself in  
> the future
> too.
>
> That unegoistical attitude would be of precious value. Is not  
> utopic is
> practical and archivable. Often some self-criticism. That could be  
> reflected
> on the prosperity of the system you are working on. The price? 15  
> seconds
> for method and some typing and redacting? That is an investiment  
> that will
> return to you in the form of more people understanding what you do  
> and how
> it works. People that could surpass learning smalltalk frustrations  
> and will
> reach a point in which they'll start to give it's part adding  
> strenght to
> our community that you will surely need to consult in subjects not  
> familiar
> to you.
>
> I wanted to express that I think that the key to the change we need  
> is to
> adopt thecniques which pruposes sistematical donation of didactic  
> clues
> about the apprehension moments we experiment using Smalltalk.
>
> That is what one could call programing for persons and not  
> computers and in
> my modest opinion one of the most valuable and subtle things that  
> the spirit
> of Smalltalk has to offer.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sebastian Sastre
>
> (*) I want to put emphasys in all the anti-patterns that are not  
> related to
> programming (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern) But  
> more than
> the basic reference I'm giving here, I want to put emphasys in the  
> concept
> of our community's own creative anti-patterns.
>
>
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre
>> de stephane ducasse
>> Enviado el: Jueves, 05 de Abril de 2007 17:32
>> Para: Seaside - general discussion
>> Asunto: [Seaside] Why seaside really sucks! COMMMMMMMENTS are MISSING
>>
>> This is not easy for me to say that because I appreciate the
>> work of Avi, Lukas and Philippe.
>> But I'm sorry to say that but seaside sucks! Not because of
>> the code or the concepts.
>> But because there is really not enough comments. Really! It
>> is really difficult to understand a simple method is doing
>> and if it makes sense to specialize it.
>>
>> This is TERRIBLE since I think that I'm a good programmer but
>> seaside code prevents me to be fully efficient. I have to
>> guess try and error and guess again. I have to ask stupid
>> questions to the mailing-list while I would prefer to use it
>> for  interesting questions. I think that seaside goes even
>> against the philosophy of Smalltalk (a system that someone
>> alone can understand) because this total lacks of comments is
>> TRAPPING me. I cannot use my skills full speed. Thanks what a
>> great feeling.
>> pleaseeeeeee do not tell me to read the code or to use
>> senders! This is really the worse answer I can get.
>> I always hated this kind of answer on smalltalk forums.
>>
>> (Please do not ask me what I'm doing to improve the situation
>> because people knows what I did for seaside and Smalltalk already.)
>>
>> I think that as a community we should do something especially
>> since we have monticello and comments could be easily merged.
>>
>> I pushed a lot seaside and I'm trying to push it again
>> further but come on we should WAKE UP!
>> I would really like that people with knowledge helps
>> improving the situation.
>>
>> So if you think that seaside is cool and it is worth more,
>> spend 30 min of your precious time and add comments, help
>> lukas and the other to make Seaside really a habitable piece of code.
>>
>> Comments are for people that do not know or remember. So if
>> you really want to make the community grow you know what you
>> should do. But may be it is better that seaside stays a cool
>> program for a nice and private club after all.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> PS: I should say that filelibrary is a good start at
>> documenting a functionality. May be adding method comments
>> would help there too.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

>
>
> Cheers!
>
> -Boris
> (Sent from a BlackBerry)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [hidden email] <seaside-
> [hidden email]>
> To: Seaside - general discussion <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Fri Apr 06 11:53:47 2007
> Subject: Re: [Seaside] Why seaside really sucks! COMMMMMMMENTS are  
> MISSING
>
> 2007/4/6, Rick Flower <[hidden email]>:
> > Philippe Marschall wrote:
> > > Commit them, they will get reviewed and if accepted merged.
> > Can I assume that this must be done in the squeak environment and  
> that
> > it might be extra work
> > to do this if you're using VW or other non-squeak dialects of ST  
> -- correct?
>
> Must is quite a strong word. I'm sure we would also accept change sets
> posted to the mailing list or mantis.
>
> Philippe
>
> > Too bad VW can't talk directly to the Squeak repository too..
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Seaside mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

> This is not easy for me to say that because I appreciate the work of  
> Avi, Lukas and Philippe.
> But I'm sorry to say that but seaside sucks! Not because of the code  
> or the concepts.
> But because there is really not enough comments. Really! It is really  
> difficult to understand a simple
> method is doing and if it makes sense to specialize it.
>
> This is TERRIBLE since I think that I'm a good programmer but seaside  
> code prevents me to
> be fully efficient. I have to guess try and error and guess again. I  
> have to ask stupid questions to the mailing-list
> while I would prefer to use it for  interesting questions. I think  
> that seaside goes even against the philosophy of
> Smalltalk (a system that someone alone can understand) because this  
> total lacks of
> comments is TRAPPING me. I cannot use my skills full speed. Thanks  
> what a great feeling.
> pleaseeeeeee do not tell me to read the code or to use senders! This  
> is really the worse answer I can get.
> I always hated this kind of answer on smalltalk forums.
>
> (Please do not ask me what I'm doing to improve the situation because  
> people knows what I did
> for seaside and Smalltalk already.)
>
> I think that as a community we should do something especially since  
> we have monticello
> and comments could be easily merged.
>
> I pushed a lot seaside and I'm trying to push it again further but  
> come on we should WAKE UP!
> I would really like that people with knowledge helps improving the  
> situation.
>
> So if you think that seaside is cool and it is worth more, spend 30  
> min of your precious time and
> add comments, help lukas and the other to make Seaside really a  
> habitable piece of code.
>
> Comments are for people that do not know or remember. So if you  
> really want to make the community
> grow you know what you should do. But may be it is better that  
> seaside stays a cool program for a nice and
> private club after all.
>
> Stef
>
> PS: I should say that filelibrary is a good start at documenting a  
> functionality. May be adding method comments
> would help there too.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

>
> On 6 avr. 07, at 21:01, Boris Popov wrote:
>
>> Silly question, what is it you expect commented? Methods?
> "I'm a cool method that does that and that my subclasses should
> redefine"...
>
> "I'm private method doing that. But please do not override me instead
> specialize...."
>
>> Classes?
> for each class (important)
> I want to have
>     my goal
>     my responsibility
>     my collaborators
>     my extensions hook
>    
>     may be link to examples
>     Personally I do not care about my iv is a String.
>
>> Packages? Would we be better off with documentation instead?
> May be also at the package level.
>
>> If I were looking for a way to configure select list with a labels
>> block, where would I expect to find a comment for it?
>
> In a brush class comments and in the examples on the class side.
>> Look at every method in there until I see one with matching comment?
>> No offence, just trying to see how I could help out, not once have I
>> thought in the past year, jee I wish this was commented, because by
>> the time you find what you're looking for, comment within it is a
>> little late :)
>
> but commenting is not for people knowing :)
>
> Stef
>>
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> -Boris
>> (Sent from a BlackBerry)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> <[hidden email]>
>> To: Seaside - general discussion <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Fri Apr 06 11:53:47 2007
>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] Why seaside really sucks! COMMMMMMMENTS are
>> MISSING
>>
>> 2007/4/6, Rick Flower <[hidden email]>:
>> > Philippe Marschall wrote:
>> > > Commit them, they will get reviewed and if accepted merged.
>> > Can I assume that this must be done in the squeak environment and that
>> > it might be extra work
>> > to do this if you're using VW or other non-squeak dialects of ST --
>> correct?
>>
>> Must is quite a strong word. I'm sure we would also accept change sets
>> posted to the mailing list or mantis.
>>
>> Philippe
>>
>> > Too bad VW can't talk directly to the Squeak repository too..
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Seaside mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> (obviously if you're doing optimized code this rule has to be relaxed
> a bit).  Comments should say what the code doesn't (e.g. why was it
> done this way?  Are there some non-obvious dependencies here?) [1].
>
> And what is with the first person commenting?  For me it doesn't add
> anything but typing/reading, with no value add.
>
> "I am the method responsible for rendering the class..."
>
> vs.
>
> "responsible for rendering the class..."

>
> On 12-Apr-07, at 12:05 PM, Jason Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>> And what is with the first person commenting?  For me it doesn't add
>> anything but typing/reading, with no value add.
>>
>> "I am the method responsible for rendering the class..."
> The tendency to first person comments stems from the anthropomorphic
> viewpoint of being inside an object.
>
> tim
> --
> tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
> Useful Latin Phrases:- Die dulci fruere = Have a nice day
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>