Why we do not have import in menu
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Why we do not have import in menu
 
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Hi
why do I have action in menus and action in toolbar? Why as a user I have to remember where to look? Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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Hi Stef,
I do not understand what this issue is about. Could you be more specific? Cheers, Doru On 24 May 2011, at 15:23, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Hi > > why do I have action in menus and action in toolbar? > Why as a user I have to remember where to look? > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > [hidden email] > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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I actually agree with steph. The two menus might seem like an added facility but I believe they are confusing, e.g. why is there two options to import from MSE? Are they equivalent or not? (probably not since one is in the model conext menu, but then what does it do?) I would also suggest a more traditional menubar above the models output instead of the buttons that are on the top right of the window. For newcomers, they are likely to be ignored because this is where one usually finds iconify/maximize/close buttons just my 2c nicolas ----- Mail original ----- > De: "Tudor Girba" <[hidden email]> > À: "Moose-related development" <[hidden email]> > Envoyé: Mardi 24 Mai 2011 15:32:28 > Objet: [Moose-dev] Re: Why we do not have import in menu > Hi Stef, > > I do not understand what this issue is about. Could you be more > specific? > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 24 May 2011, at 15:23, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > > Hi > > > > why do I have action in menus and action in toolbar? > > Why as a user I have to remember where to look? > > > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > > Moose-dev mailing list > > [hidden email] > > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > [hidden email] > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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Hi,
Ok, I think I understand where the problem comes from. On 24 May 2011, at 15:48, Nicolas Anquetil wrote: > > I actually agree with steph. I do not. > The two menus might seem like an added facility but I believe they are confusing, > e.g. why is there two options to import from MSE? Are they equivalent or not? > (probably not since one is in the model conext menu, but then what does it do?) You cannot expect to use a tool without considering at all how it is designed. The design of the Moose UI is uniform and object oriented when you click on something it concerns that something http://www.themoosebook.org/book/externals/ui/entity So, the two are not the same. The global one will create a model, while the contextual one will populate the current model. Now, I do agree that some of the menu items should be eliminated, and I think that the import from the model menu is one candidate. > I would also suggest a more traditional menubar above the models output instead of the buttons that are on the top right of the window. > For newcomers, they are likely to be ignored because this is where one usually finds iconify/maximize/close buttons The design is intentional and again has to do with uniformity in Glamour: the actions for a certain presentation/browser can be found on the top-right regardless of whether this is in a top window or embedded in some pane. > just my 2c Thanks :) Cheers, Doru > nicolas > > ----- Mail original ----- >> De: "Tudor Girba" <[hidden email]> >> À: "Moose-related development" <[hidden email]> >> Envoyé: Mardi 24 Mai 2011 15:32:28 >> Objet: [Moose-dev] Re: Why we do not have import in menu >> Hi Stef, >> >> I do not understand what this issue is about. Could you be more >> specific? >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> On 24 May 2011, at 15:23, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> Hi >>> >>> why do I have action in menus and action in toolbar? >>> Why as a user I have to remember where to look? >>> >>> Stef >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> [hidden email] >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > [hidden email] > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "Relationships are of two kinds: those we choose and those that happen. They both matter." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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come on doru you can have a design in mind if user has to think all the time this means that the design does not work.
"Ok I should not use the contextual menu for this task" repeat after me and breath..... And now I have to learn by heart >> I actually agree with steph. > > I do not. > >> The two menus might seem like an added facility but I believe they are confusing, >> e.g. why is there two options to import from MSE? Are they equivalent or not? >> (probably not since one is in the model conext menu, but then what does it do?) > > You cannot expect to use a tool without considering at all how it is designed. > > The design of the Moose UI is uniform and object oriented when you click on something it concerns that something > http://www.themoosebook.org/book/externals/ui/entity It is not. When I want to interact with a model I have to click somewhere on a bar while the list is in another place In fact this is remote distributed object-orientation. > So, the two are not the same. The global one will create a model, while the contextual one will populate the current model. yeah sure. Now I have to always remember ok I should not use the contextual menu. > Now, I do agree that some of the menu items should be eliminated, and I think that the import from the model menu is one candidate. I do not even understand what you are saying on this one. >> I would also suggest a more traditional menubar above the models output instead of the buttons that are on the top right of the window. >> For newcomers, they are likely to be ignored because this is where one usually finds iconify/maximize/close buttons > > The design is intentional and again has to do with uniformity in Glamour: the actions for a certain presentation/browser can be found on the top-right regardless of whether this is in a top window or embedded in some pane. Well we can find all kind of good reasons. But at the end on mac there is a plus and minus **Related to the list** not on the other side of the pane. So adding and removing a model should not be at the other end of the pane. Stef > >> just my 2c > > Thanks :) > > Cheers, > Doru > > >> nicolas >> >> ----- Mail original ----- >>> De: "Tudor Girba" <[hidden email]> >>> À: "Moose-related development" <[hidden email]> >>> Envoyé: Mardi 24 Mai 2011 15:32:28 >>> Objet: [Moose-dev] Re: Why we do not have import in menu >>> Hi Stef, >>> >>> I do not understand what this issue is about. Could you be more >>> specific? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> On 24 May 2011, at 15:23, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> why do I have action in menus and action in toolbar? >>>> Why as a user I have to remember where to look? >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> [hidden email] >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Relationships are of two kinds: those we choose and those that happen. They both matter." > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > [hidden email] > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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Stef,
I understand that you are frustrated by using this tool perhaps for the first time, but this kind of dialogue is simply not useful. Please let's transform it into something positive. The reason why those buttons are on the top-right is that they affect the entire browser in my view. One thing I can tell you though is that when an interface is uniform and you know what that is, you will know where to look. Now, let's imagine that all tools would use exactly the same interface which actually makes sense once you give the principle a try. All of a sudden it becomes obvious. Regarding +/- on a Mac, I had to go ask someone how to remove an account on Mac exactly because I did not manage to find the -. I am not saying that it does not make sense to have it there, but I was used to the Mac actions to be on top of my selection, not below it. Things are never black and white. That is why it is useful to talk principles, not happenings. Regarding the contextual task, what exactly is the problem? Cheers, Doru On 24 May 2011, at 21:26, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > come on doru you can have a design in mind if user has to think all the time this means that the design does not work. > "Ok I should not use the contextual menu for this task" repeat after me and breath..... > And now I have to learn by heart > >>> I actually agree with steph. >> >> I do not. >> >>> The two menus might seem like an added facility but I believe they are confusing, >>> e.g. why is there two options to import from MSE? Are they equivalent or not? >>> (probably not since one is in the model conext menu, but then what does it do?) >> >> You cannot expect to use a tool without considering at all how it is designed. >> >> The design of the Moose UI is uniform and object oriented when you click on something it concerns that something >> http://www.themoosebook.org/book/externals/ui/entity > > It is not. When I want to interact with a model I have to click somewhere on a bar while the list is in another place > In fact this is remote distributed object-orientation. > >> So, the two are not the same. The global one will create a model, while the contextual one will populate the current model. > > yeah sure. Now I have to always remember ok I should not use the contextual menu. > >> Now, I do agree that some of the menu items should be eliminated, and I think that the import from the model menu is one candidate. > > I do not even understand what you are saying on this one. > >>> I would also suggest a more traditional menubar above the models output instead of the buttons that are on the top right of the window. >>> For newcomers, they are likely to be ignored because this is where one usually finds iconify/maximize/close buttons >> >> The design is intentional and again has to do with uniformity in Glamour: the actions for a certain presentation/browser can be found on the top-right regardless of whether this is in a top window or embedded in some pane. > > Well we can find all kind of good reasons. But at the end on mac there is a plus and minus **Related to the list** not on the other side of the pane. > So adding and removing a model should not be at the other end of the pane. > > Stef > >> >>> just my 2c >> >> Thanks :) >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >>> nicolas >>> >>> ----- Mail original ----- >>>> De: "Tudor Girba" <[hidden email]> >>>> À: "Moose-related development" <[hidden email]> >>>> Envoyé: Mardi 24 Mai 2011 15:32:28 >>>> Objet: [Moose-dev] Re: Why we do not have import in menu >>>> Hi Stef, >>>> >>>> I do not understand what this issue is about. Could you be more >>>> specific? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> >>>> On 24 May 2011, at 15:23, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> >>>>> why do I have action in menus and action in toolbar? >>>>> Why as a user I have to remember where to look? >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> [hidden email] >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> >>>> "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Relationships are of two kinds: those we choose and those that happen. They both matter." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> [hidden email] >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > [hidden email] > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "Presenting is storytelling." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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> Stef, > > I understand that you are frustrated by using this tool perhaps for the first time, but this kind of dialogue is simply not useful. Please let's transform it into something positive. i know I'm trying. > > The reason why those buttons are on the top-right is that they affect the entire browser in my view. One thing I can tell you though is that when an interface is uniform and you know what that is, you will know where to look. > > Now, let's imagine that all tools would use exactly the same interface which actually makes sense once you give the principle a try. All of a sudden it becomes obvious. > > Regarding +/- on a Mac, I had to go ask someone how to remove an account on Mac exactly because I did not manage to find the -. I am not saying that it does not make sense to have it there, but I was used to the Mac actions to be on top of my selection, not below it. Things are never black and white. That is why it is useful to talk principles, not happenings. > > Regarding the contextual task, what exactly is the problem? that import is related to models and the first thing I get is an empty list and this is where I start not to the browser of models that I have no clue what it is. Stef > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 24 May 2011, at 21:26, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >> come on doru you can have a design in mind if user has to think all the time this means that the design does not work. >> "Ok I should not use the contextual menu for this task" repeat after me and breath..... >> And now I have to learn by heart >> >>>> I actually agree with steph. >>> >>> I do not. >>> >>>> The two menus might seem like an added facility but I believe they are confusing, >>>> e.g. why is there two options to import from MSE? Are they equivalent or not? >>>> (probably not since one is in the model conext menu, but then what does it do?) >>> >>> You cannot expect to use a tool without considering at all how it is designed. >>> >>> The design of the Moose UI is uniform and object oriented when you click on something it concerns that something >>> http://www.themoosebook.org/book/externals/ui/entity >> >> It is not. When I want to interact with a model I have to click somewhere on a bar while the list is in another place >> In fact this is remote distributed object-orientation. >> >>> So, the two are not the same. The global one will create a model, while the contextual one will populate the current model. >> >> yeah sure. Now I have to always remember ok I should not use the contextual menu. >> >>> Now, I do agree that some of the menu items should be eliminated, and I think that the import from the model menu is one candidate. >> >> I do not even understand what you are saying on this one. >> >>>> I would also suggest a more traditional menubar above the models output instead of the buttons that are on the top right of the window. >>>> For newcomers, they are likely to be ignored because this is where one usually finds iconify/maximize/close buttons >>> >>> The design is intentional and again has to do with uniformity in Glamour: the actions for a certain presentation/browser can be found on the top-right regardless of whether this is in a top window or embedded in some pane. >> >> Well we can find all kind of good reasons. But at the end on mac there is a plus and minus **Related to the list** not on the other side of the pane. >> So adding and removing a model should not be at the other end of the pane. >> >> Stef >> >>> >>>> just my 2c >>> >>> Thanks :) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>>> nicolas >>>> >>>> ----- Mail original ----- >>>>> De: "Tudor Girba" <[hidden email]> >>>>> À: "Moose-related development" <[hidden email]> >>>>> Envoyé: Mardi 24 Mai 2011 15:32:28 >>>>> Objet: [Moose-dev] Re: Why we do not have import in menu >>>>> Hi Stef, >>>>> >>>>> I do not understand what this issue is about. Could you be more >>>>> specific? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Doru >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 24 May 2011, at 15:23, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi >>>>>> >>>>>> why do I have action in menus and action in toolbar? >>>>>> Why as a user I have to remember where to look? >>>>>> >>>>>> Stef >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>> >>>>> "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> [hidden email] >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Relationships are of two kinds: those we choose and those that happen. They both matter." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> [hidden email] >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Presenting is storytelling." > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > [hidden email] > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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On 24 May 2011, at 22:47, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > >> Stef, >> >> I understand that you are frustrated by using this tool perhaps for the first time, but this kind of dialogue is simply not useful. Please let's transform it into something positive. > > i know I'm trying. >> >> The reason why those buttons are on the top-right is that they affect the entire browser in my view. One thing I can tell you though is that when an interface is uniform and you know what that is, you will know where to look. >> >> Now, let's imagine that all tools would use exactly the same interface which actually makes sense once you give the principle a try. All of a sudden it becomes obvious. >> >> Regarding +/- on a Mac, I had to go ask someone how to remove an account on Mac exactly because I did not manage to find the -. I am not saying that it does not make sense to have it there, but I was used to the Mac actions to be on top of my selection, not below it. Things are never black and white. That is why it is useful to talk principles, not happenings. >> >> Regarding the contextual task, what exactly is the problem? > > that import is related to models and the first thing I get is an empty list and this is where I start not to the browser of models that I have no clue what it is. Perhaps something is not quite clear. In MoosePanel the contextual menu should work on data only. Not on panels. If you do not see data, you should not be able to use the contextual menu. But, let me ask you again. Now that you know that the toolbar for the current browser/presentation is on the top right. Do you still have the problem of looking for it and knowing what it relates to? Cheers, Doru > Stef > > >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> On 24 May 2011, at 21:26, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> come on doru you can have a design in mind if user has to think all the time this means that the design does not work. >>> "Ok I should not use the contextual menu for this task" repeat after me and breath..... >>> And now I have to learn by heart >>> >>>>> I actually agree with steph. >>>> >>>> I do not. >>>> >>>>> The two menus might seem like an added facility but I believe they are confusing, >>>>> e.g. why is there two options to import from MSE? Are they equivalent or not? >>>>> (probably not since one is in the model conext menu, but then what does it do?) >>>> >>>> You cannot expect to use a tool without considering at all how it is designed. >>>> >>>> The design of the Moose UI is uniform and object oriented when you click on something it concerns that something >>>> http://www.themoosebook.org/book/externals/ui/entity >>> >>> It is not. When I want to interact with a model I have to click somewhere on a bar while the list is in another place >>> In fact this is remote distributed object-orientation. >>> >>>> So, the two are not the same. The global one will create a model, while the contextual one will populate the current model. >>> >>> yeah sure. Now I have to always remember ok I should not use the contextual menu. >>> >>>> Now, I do agree that some of the menu items should be eliminated, and I think that the import from the model menu is one candidate. >>> >>> I do not even understand what you are saying on this one. >>> >>>>> I would also suggest a more traditional menubar above the models output instead of the buttons that are on the top right of the window. >>>>> For newcomers, they are likely to be ignored because this is where one usually finds iconify/maximize/close buttons >>>> >>>> The design is intentional and again has to do with uniformity in Glamour: the actions for a certain presentation/browser can be found on the top-right regardless of whether this is in a top window or embedded in some pane. >>> >>> Well we can find all kind of good reasons. But at the end on mac there is a plus and minus **Related to the list** not on the other side of the pane. >>> So adding and removing a model should not be at the other end of the pane. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>>> >>>>> just my 2c >>>> >>>> Thanks :) >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> >>>>> nicolas >>>>> >>>>> ----- Mail original ----- >>>>>> De: "Tudor Girba" <[hidden email]> >>>>>> À: "Moose-related development" <[hidden email]> >>>>>> Envoyé: Mardi 24 Mai 2011 15:32:28 >>>>>> Objet: [Moose-dev] Re: Why we do not have import in menu >>>>>> Hi Stef, >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not understand what this issue is about. Could you be more >>>>>> specific? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 24 May 2011, at 15:23, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> why do I have action in menus and action in toolbar? >>>>>>> Why as a user I have to remember where to look? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> [hidden email] >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> >>>> "Relationships are of two kinds: those we choose and those that happen. They both matter." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Presenting is storytelling." >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> [hidden email] >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > [hidden email] > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing should have the right to be different." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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>> that import is related to models and the first thing I get is an empty list and this is where I start not to the browser of models that I have no clue what it is. > > Perhaps something is not quite clear. In MoosePanel the contextual menu should work on data only. Not on panels. If you do not see data, you should not be able to use the contextual menu. I know that. You told it to me so many times... > But, let me ask you again. Now that you know that the toolbar for the current browser/presentation is on the top right. Do you still have the problem of looking for it and knowing what it relates to? I do not know. I think that if we are real about ui of moose we should perform a simple user study: give a task and ask the person to talk loud about its perception. repeat the process and learn. My point is that location of the actuator and the its acted upon should be close. We already fixed all the TERMINATE buttons. This was not good that I pose 2 s before pressing it. Stef > > Cheers, > Doru > > >> Stef >> >> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> On 24 May 2011, at 21:26, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>> >>>> come on doru you can have a design in mind if user has to think all the time this means that the design does not work. >>>> "Ok I should not use the contextual menu for this task" repeat after me and breath..... >>>> And now I have to learn by heart >>>> >>>>>> I actually agree with steph. >>>>> >>>>> I do not. >>>>> >>>>>> The two menus might seem like an added facility but I believe they are confusing, >>>>>> e.g. why is there two options to import from MSE? Are they equivalent or not? >>>>>> (probably not since one is in the model conext menu, but then what does it do?) >>>>> >>>>> You cannot expect to use a tool without considering at all how it is designed. >>>>> >>>>> The design of the Moose UI is uniform and object oriented when you click on something it concerns that something >>>>> http://www.themoosebook.org/book/externals/ui/entity >>>> >>>> It is not. When I want to interact with a model I have to click somewhere on a bar while the list is in another place >>>> In fact this is remote distributed object-orientation. >>>> >>>>> So, the two are not the same. The global one will create a model, while the contextual one will populate the current model. >>>> >>>> yeah sure. Now I have to always remember ok I should not use the contextual menu. >>>> >>>>> Now, I do agree that some of the menu items should be eliminated, and I think that the import from the model menu is one candidate. >>>> >>>> I do not even understand what you are saying on this one. >>>> >>>>>> I would also suggest a more traditional menubar above the models output instead of the buttons that are on the top right of the window. >>>>>> For newcomers, they are likely to be ignored because this is where one usually finds iconify/maximize/close buttons >>>>> >>>>> The design is intentional and again has to do with uniformity in Glamour: the actions for a certain presentation/browser can be found on the top-right regardless of whether this is in a top window or embedded in some pane. >>>> >>>> Well we can find all kind of good reasons. But at the end on mac there is a plus and minus **Related to the list** not on the other side of the pane. >>>> So adding and removing a model should not be at the other end of the pane. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> just my 2c >>>>> >>>>> Thanks :) >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Doru >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> nicolas >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Mail original ----- >>>>>>> De: "Tudor Girba" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>> À: "Moose-related development" <[hidden email]> >>>>>>> Envoyé: Mardi 24 Mai 2011 15:32:28 >>>>>>> Objet: [Moose-dev] Re: Why we do not have import in menu >>>>>>> Hi Stef, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not understand what this issue is about. Could you be more >>>>>>> specific? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Doru >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 24 May 2011, at 15:23, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> why do I have action in menus and action in toolbar? >>>>>>>> Why as a user I have to remember where to look? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>> [hidden email] >>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>> >>>>> "Relationships are of two kinds: those we choose and those that happen. They both matter." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> [hidden email] >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> [hidden email] >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Presenting is storytelling." >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> [hidden email] >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing should have the right to be different." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > [hidden email] > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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Some thoughts: Moose is a tool, not a full desktop environment. As a tool, it should integrate into the desktop environment and follow the same conventions, not create a set of convention for itself, however well founded they are. (And no, Glamour is not a full desktop environment either.) The problem of course is that we have at least three main desktop environments we can work on and they don't follow the same conventions :-( So what are the solutions? - have very consensual convention, not invent our own - have a very clever interface that can adapt to its desktop (hummm difficult, and lots of work) - use external renderer(s) (e.g. Java Swing or SWT :-) ) - ??? nicolas _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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I think that the most of the choice of Moose are ok.
Now the menu bar of the main panel does not really work since it can be a strange menu bar. Stef On May 25, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Nicolas Anquetil wrote: > > Some thoughts: Moose is a tool, not a full desktop environment. > > As a tool, it should integrate into the desktop environment and follow the same conventions, not create a set of convention for itself, however well founded they are. > > (And no, Glamour is not a full desktop environment either.) > > The problem of course is that we have at least three main desktop environments we can work on and they don't follow the same conventions :-( > > So what are the solutions? > - have very consensual convention, not invent our own > - have a very clever interface that can adapt to its desktop (hummm difficult, and lots of work) > - use external renderer(s) (e.g. Java Swing or SWT :-) ) > - ??? > > nicolas > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > [hidden email] > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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In reply to this post by Nicolas Anquetil
Hi,
On 25 May 2011, at 09:33, Nicolas Anquetil wrote: > > Some thoughts: Moose is a tool, not a full desktop environment. > > As a tool, it should integrate into the desktop environment and follow the same conventions, not create a set of convention for itself, however well founded they are. > > (And no, Glamour is not a full desktop environment either.) No it is not. Nobody said it is. Glamour is simply inventing a class of its own: the data browser environment. This happens to have its own constraints and patterns. And yes, I think this is an opportunity to invent something new and useful, not a problem of not conforming. If Pharo would have native widgets support, the situation would be different. But we do not have it. > The problem of course is that we have at least three main desktop environments we can work on and they don't follow the same conventions :-( What do you mean? > So what are the solutions? > - have very consensual convention, not invent our own There is none for good browsers of data. > - have a very clever interface that can adapt to its desktop (hummm difficult, and lots of work) No way :) > - use external renderer(s) (e.g. Java Swing or SWT :-) ) Right now we use Morphic, which is as integrated into the desktop environment as Swing. > - ??? Go on the web because there we have native widget support :) Cheers, Doru > nicolas > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > [hidden email] > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "Not knowing how to do something is not an argument for how it cannot be done." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
> We already fixed all the TERMINATE buttons. This was not good that I pose 2 s before pressing it.
I see that 'Finish' is now in last Wizard panels. But why not 'Proceed' ? I find it much more intuitive and close to what we really want to do when using a wizard. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
Re: Why we do not have import in menu
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Yes :)
Stef On May 25, 2011, at 5:31 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> We already fixed all the TERMINATE buttons. This was not good that I pose 2 s before pressing it. > > > I see that 'Finish' is now in last Wizard panels. But why not 'Proceed' ? I find it much more intuitive and close to what we really want to do when using a wizard. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > [hidden email] > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list [hidden email] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev |
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