Wishes for new ClassBuilder (toon?)

> Hi guys. As part of the Fuel project, one of the things we want to do
> (in fact, it is done) is to serialize classes. There want to have 3
> possibilities:
> 1) Do something like DiskProxy where you only save its global name and
> some selector to run when deserialing it
> 2) Really searialize the whole class (following method dictionary,
> compiled methods, class pools and friend, etc) so that you can
> deserialize it in another image where such class is not present.
> 3) Do the same as 2 but validating and installing the class in the system.
>
> For 2) what we want to do is just to serialize the class as any other
> object. As a result, we get a Class instance. Nothing is validated,
> nothing is added in Smalltalk globals, nothing is compiled. We do not
> use ClassBuilder at all.
>
> For 3) we want to do 2) plus validating and installing the class in
> the system. For validating I mean ALL the validations that the class
> builder does when creating or modifying a class. And for "installing
> in the system" I mean notify, put in Smalltalk globals, re compile
> what is needed, etc...
>
> ClassBuilder seems to do 2) and 3) together. So, what I would love to
> have in a new class builder is to have those two things separated. So
> that I can say to an object ClassManager validate: aClass or
> ClassManager installClassOnSystem: aClass.
>
> Do you think such thing is possible?  Right now going through
> ClassBuilder and understand all the validations it does is really
> complicated :(
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> --
> Mariano
> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
>

> The PlayOut classbuilder indeed separates this nicely. We have the distinction between the "installer" and the "builder". The builder uses an "installer" as a client and notifies it about stuff that happens.
>
> For example we have an "anonymous subclass builder" that's implemented like that. It basically just ignores most of the notifications of the builder since it doesn't really do anything.
>
> ... but of course this means that you need PlayOut ;) You can get an image at http://pinocchio.unibe.ch/~tverwaes/PlayOut.tar.gz
>
> caveats:
> - At the moment that system doesn't validate everything yet like the old classbuilder (since I wanted to freely change classes with any name)
> - it doesn't handle obsolete subclasses yet. Oh well ;)
> - it's still intertwined with our slots implementation, so it relies on Helvetia. But that can/should/will be fixed without changing the API.
>
> cheers,
> Toon
>
> On 05/18/2011 03:18 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>> Hi guys. As part of the Fuel project, one of the things we want to do (in fact, it is done) is to serialize classes. There want to have 3 possibilities:
>> 1) Do something like DiskProxy where you only save its global name and some selector to run when deserialing it
>> 2) Really searialize the whole class (following method dictionary, compiled methods, class pools and friend, etc) so that you can deserialize it in another image where such class is not present.
>> 3) Do the same as 2 but validating and installing the class in the system.
>>
>> For 2) what we want to do is just to serialize the class as any other object. As a result, we get a Class instance. Nothing is validated, nothing is added in Smalltalk globals, nothing is compiled. We do not use ClassBuilder at all.
>>
>> For 3) we want to do 2) plus validating and installing the class in the system. For validating I mean ALL the validations that the class builder does when creating or modifying a class. And for "installing in the system" I mean notify, put in Smalltalk globals, re compile what is needed, etc...
>>
>> ClassBuilder seems to do 2) and 3) together. So, what I would love to have in a new class builder is to have those two things separated. So that I can say to an object ClassManager validate: aClass or ClassManager installClassOnSystem: aClass.
>>
>> Do you think such thing is possible?  Right now going through ClassBuilder and understand all the validations it does is really complicated :(
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> --
>> Mariano
>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
>>
>
>

> toon I looked at the code but do you have tests for the new class builder?
> I could not find them.
>
> Stef
> On May 18, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>
>> The PlayOut classbuilder indeed separates this nicely. We have the distinction between the "installer" and the "builder". The builder uses an "installer" as a client and notifies it about stuff that happens.
>>
>> For example we have an "anonymous subclass builder" that's implemented like that. It basically just ignores most of the notifications of the builder since it doesn't really do anything.
>>
>> ... but of course this means that you need PlayOut ;) You can get an image at http://pinocchio.unibe.ch/~tverwaes/PlayOut.tar.gz
>>
>> caveats:
>> - At the moment that system doesn't validate everything yet like the old classbuilder (since I wanted to freely change classes with any name)
>> - it doesn't handle obsolete subclasses yet. Oh well ;)
>> - it's still intertwined with our slots implementation, so it relies on Helvetia. But that can/should/will be fixed without changing the API.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Toon
>>
>> On 05/18/2011 03:18 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>>> Hi guys. As part of the Fuel project, one of the things we want to do (in fact, it is done) is to serialize classes. There want to have 3 possibilities:
>>> 1) Do something like DiskProxy where you only save its global name and some selector to run when deserialing it
>>> 2) Really searialize the whole class (following method dictionary, compiled methods, class pools and friend, etc) so that you can deserialize it in another image where such class is not present.
>>> 3) Do the same as 2 but validating and installing the class in the system.
>>>
>>> For 2) what we want to do is just to serialize the class as any other object. As a result, we get a Class instance. Nothing is validated, nothing is added in Smalltalk globals, nothing is compiled. We do not use ClassBuilder at all.
>>>
>>> For 3) we want to do 2) plus validating and installing the class in the system. For validating I mean ALL the validations that the class builder does when creating or modifying a class. And for "installing in the system" I mean notify, put in Smalltalk globals, re compile what is needed, etc...
>>>
>>> ClassBuilder seems to do 2) and 3) together. So, what I would love to have in a new class builder is to have those two things separated. So that I can say to an object ClassManager validate: aClass or ClassManager installClassOnSystem: aClass.
>>>
>>> Do you think such thing is possible?  Right now going through ClassBuilder and understand all the validations it does is really complicated :(
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mariano
>>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
>>>
>>
>

> Nope. That needs to be added. Sorry. If you have tests for the old classbuilder we can port them. Otherwise I can take the time at the next print I attend to do it; maybe together with somebody else.
>
> Toon
>
> On 05/18/2011 09:38 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>> toon I looked at the code but do you have tests for the new class builder?
>> I could not find them.
>>
>> Stef
>> On May 18, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>>
>>> The PlayOut classbuilder indeed separates this nicely. We have the distinction between the "installer" and the "builder". The builder uses an "installer" as a client and notifies it about stuff that happens.
>>>
>>> For example we have an "anonymous subclass builder" that's implemented like that. It basically just ignores most of the notifications of the builder since it doesn't really do anything.
>>>
>>> ... but of course this means that you need PlayOut ;) You can get an image at http://pinocchio.unibe.ch/~tverwaes/PlayOut.tar.gz
>>>
>>> caveats:
>>> - At the moment that system doesn't validate everything yet like the old classbuilder (since I wanted to freely change classes with any name)
>>> - it doesn't handle obsolete subclasses yet. Oh well ;)
>>> - it's still intertwined with our slots implementation, so it relies on Helvetia. But that can/should/will be fixed without changing the API.
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Toon
>>>
>>> On 05/18/2011 03:18 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>>>> Hi guys. As part of the Fuel project, one of the things we want to do (in fact, it is done) is to serialize classes. There want to have 3 possibilities:
>>>> 1) Do something like DiskProxy where you only save its global name and some selector to run when deserialing it
>>>> 2) Really searialize the whole class (following method dictionary, compiled methods, class pools and friend, etc) so that you can deserialize it in another image where such class is not present.
>>>> 3) Do the same as 2 but validating and installing the class in the system.
>>>>
>>>> For 2) what we want to do is just to serialize the class as any other object. As a result, we get a Class instance. Nothing is validated, nothing is added in Smalltalk globals, nothing is compiled. We do not use ClassBuilder at all.
>>>>
>>>> For 3) we want to do 2) plus validating and installing the class in the system. For validating I mean ALL the validations that the class builder does when creating or modifying a class. And for "installing in the system" I mean notify, put in Smalltalk globals, re compile what is needed, etc...
>>>>
>>>> ClassBuilder seems to do 2) and 3) together. So, what I would love to have in a new class builder is to have those two things separated. So that I can say to an object ClassManager validate: aClass or ClassManager installClassOnSystem: aClass.
>>>>
>>>> Do you think such thing is possible?  Right now going through ClassBuilder and understand all the validations it does is really complicated :(
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mariano
>>>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

> I'm planning to be at bern the friday 30 of june after tools so I would be happy to do that.
>
> Stef
>
> On May 18, 2011, at 10:31 PM, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>
>> Nope. That needs to be added. Sorry. If you have tests for the old classbuilder we can port them. Otherwise I can take the time at the next print I attend to do it; maybe together with somebody else.
>>
>> Toon
>>
>> On 05/18/2011 09:38 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>>> toon I looked at the code but do you have tests for the new class builder?
>>> I could not find them.
>>>
>>> Stef
>>> On May 18, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>>>
>>>> The PlayOut classbuilder indeed separates this nicely. We have the distinction between the "installer" and the "builder". The builder uses an "installer" as a client and notifies it about stuff that happens.
>>>>
>>>> For example we have an "anonymous subclass builder" that's implemented like that. It basically just ignores most of the notifications of the builder since it doesn't really do anything.
>>>>
>>>> ... but of course this means that you need PlayOut ;) You can get an image at http://pinocchio.unibe.ch/~tverwaes/PlayOut.tar.gz
>>>>
>>>> caveats:
>>>> - At the moment that system doesn't validate everything yet like the old classbuilder (since I wanted to freely change classes with any name)
>>>> - it doesn't handle obsolete subclasses yet. Oh well ;)
>>>> - it's still intertwined with our slots implementation, so it relies on Helvetia. But that can/should/will be fixed without changing the API.
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>> Toon
>>>>
>>>> On 05/18/2011 03:18 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>>>>> Hi guys. As part of the Fuel project, one of the things we want to do (in fact, it is done) is to serialize classes. There want to have 3 possibilities:
>>>>> 1) Do something like DiskProxy where you only save its global name and some selector to run when deserialing it
>>>>> 2) Really searialize the whole class (following method dictionary, compiled methods, class pools and friend, etc) so that you can deserialize it in another image where such class is not present.
>>>>> 3) Do the same as 2 but validating and installing the class in the system.
>>>>>
>>>>> For 2) what we want to do is just to serialize the class as any other object. As a result, we get a Class instance. Nothing is validated, nothing is added in Smalltalk globals, nothing is compiled. We do not use ClassBuilder at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> For 3) we want to do 2) plus validating and installing the class in the system. For validating I mean ALL the validations that the class builder does when creating or modifying a class. And for "installing in the system" I mean notify, put in Smalltalk globals, re compile what is needed, etc...
>>>>>
>>>>> ClassBuilder seems to do 2) and 3) together. So, what I would love to have in a new class builder is to have those two things separated. So that I can say to an object ClassManager validate: aClass or ClassManager installClassOnSystem: aClass.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think such thing is possible?  Right now going through ClassBuilder and understand all the validations it does is really complicated :(
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mariano
>>>>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

> I'm planning to be at bern the friday 30 of june after tools so I would be happy to do that.
>
> Stef
>
> On May 18, 2011, at 10:31 PM, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>
>> Nope. That needs to be added. Sorry. If you have tests for the old classbuilder we can port them. Otherwise I can take the time at the next print I attend to do it; maybe together with somebody else.
>>
>> Toon
>>
>> On 05/18/2011 09:38 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>>> toon I looked at the code but do you have tests for the new class builder?
>>> I could not find them.
>>>
>>> Stef
>>> On May 18, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>>>
>>>> The PlayOut classbuilder indeed separates this nicely. We have the distinction between the "installer" and the "builder". The builder uses an "installer" as a client and notifies it about stuff that happens.
>>>>
>>>> For example we have an "anonymous subclass builder" that's implemented like that. It basically just ignores most of the notifications of the builder since it doesn't really do anything.
>>>>
>>>> ... but of course this means that you need PlayOut ;) You can get an image at http://pinocchio.unibe.ch/~tverwaes/PlayOut.tar.gz
>>>>
>>>> caveats:
>>>> - At the moment that system doesn't validate everything yet like the old classbuilder (since I wanted to freely change classes with any name)
>>>> - it doesn't handle obsolete subclasses yet. Oh well ;)
>>>> - it's still intertwined with our slots implementation, so it relies on Helvetia. But that can/should/will be fixed without changing the API.
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>> Toon
>>>>
>>>> On 05/18/2011 03:18 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>>>>> Hi guys. As part of the Fuel project, one of the things we want to do (in fact, it is done) is to serialize classes. There want to have 3 possibilities:
>>>>> 1) Do something like DiskProxy where you only save its global name and some selector to run when deserialing it
>>>>> 2) Really searialize the whole class (following method dictionary, compiled methods, class pools and friend, etc) so that you can deserialize it in another image where such class is not present.
>>>>> 3) Do the same as 2 but validating and installing the class in the system.
>>>>>
>>>>> For 2) what we want to do is just to serialize the class as any other object. As a result, we get a Class instance. Nothing is validated, nothing is added in Smalltalk globals, nothing is compiled. We do not use ClassBuilder at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> For 3) we want to do 2) plus validating and installing the class in the system. For validating I mean ALL the validations that the class builder does when creating or modifying a class. And for "installing in the system" I mean notify, put in Smalltalk globals, re compile what is needed, etc...
>>>>>
>>>>> ClassBuilder seems to do 2) and 3) together. So, what I would love to have in a new class builder is to have those two things separated. So that I can say to an object ClassManager validate: aClass or ClassManager installClassOnSystem: aClass.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think such thing is possible?  Right now going through ClassBuilder and understand all the validations it does is really complicated :(
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mariano
>>>>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
>>>>>
>>
>

> I'll be at tools as well, so if we have time we can already do some stuff there.
>
> On 05/18/2011 11:01 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>> I'm planning to be at bern the friday 30 of june after tools so I would be happy to do that.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> On May 18, 2011, at 10:31 PM, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>>
>>> Nope. That needs to be added. Sorry. If you have tests for the old classbuilder we can port them. Otherwise I can take the time at the next print I attend to do it; maybe together with somebody else.
>>>
>>> Toon
>>>
>>> On 05/18/2011 09:38 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>>>> toon I looked at the code but do you have tests for the new class builder?
>>>> I could not find them.
>>>>
>>>> Stef
>>>> On May 18, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The PlayOut classbuilder indeed separates this nicely. We have the distinction between the "installer" and the "builder". The builder uses an "installer" as a client and notifies it about stuff that happens.
>>>>>
>>>>> For example we have an "anonymous subclass builder" that's implemented like that. It basically just ignores most of the notifications of the builder since it doesn't really do anything.
>>>>>
>>>>> ... but of course this means that you need PlayOut ;) You can get an image at http://pinocchio.unibe.ch/~tverwaes/PlayOut.tar.gz
>>>>>
>>>>> caveats:
>>>>> - At the moment that system doesn't validate everything yet like the old classbuilder (since I wanted to freely change classes with any name)
>>>>> - it doesn't handle obsolete subclasses yet. Oh well ;)
>>>>> - it's still intertwined with our slots implementation, so it relies on Helvetia. But that can/should/will be fixed without changing the API.
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers,
>>>>> Toon
>>>>>
>>>>> On 05/18/2011 03:18 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>>>>>> Hi guys. As part of the Fuel project, one of the things we want to do (in fact, it is done) is to serialize classes. There want to have 3 possibilities:
>>>>>> 1) Do something like DiskProxy where you only save its global name and some selector to run when deserialing it
>>>>>> 2) Really searialize the whole class (following method dictionary, compiled methods, class pools and friend, etc) so that you can deserialize it in another image where such class is not present.
>>>>>> 3) Do the same as 2 but validating and installing the class in the system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For 2) what we want to do is just to serialize the class as any other object. As a result, we get a Class instance. Nothing is validated, nothing is added in Smalltalk globals, nothing is compiled. We do not use ClassBuilder at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For 3) we want to do 2) plus validating and installing the class in the system. For validating I mean ALL the validations that the class builder does when creating or modifying a class. And for "installing in the system" I mean notify, put in Smalltalk globals, re compile what is needed, etc...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ClassBuilder seems to do 2) and 3) together. So, what I would love to have in a new class builder is to have those two things separated. So that I can say to an object ClassManager validate: aClass or ClassManager installClassOnSystem: aClass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think such thing is possible?  Right now going through ClassBuilder and understand all the validations it does is really complicated :(
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Mariano
>>>>>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
>>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>