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I see that there's a start towards a bit of YUI integration, but I'd like to avoid prototype.js if I can at all possible in some upcoming work, because I'm pretty sure YUI has better legs and more tools already than scriptalicious will ever have. Has anyone gone further, thinking about the integration requirements or hopefully even having done some of the work? If not, how about at least working with me on a project to start this work? -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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I was the one originally starting the YUI integration work that came out
of the internal project, but never really had the time to push it, so the code eventually all ended up being rolled together with the rest of our base and is therefore not easily extractable. One thing I would like to mention, however, is that you shouldn't be discounting the level and quality of Scriptaculous integration work that Lukas had already done. The same level of expressiveness would take a lot of essentially duplicated effort, so perhaps you could consider working on adding support for parts that Scriptaculous does not provide on its own? Cheers! -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:seaside- > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Randal L. Schwartz > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 12:37 PM > To: Seaside - general discussion > Subject: [Seaside] YUI > > > I see that there's a start towards a bit of YUI integration, but I'd like > to > avoid prototype.js if I can at all possible in some upcoming work, because > I'm > pretty sure YUI has better legs and more tools already than scriptalicious > will ever have. > > Has anyone gone further, thinking about the integration requirements or > hopefully even having done some of the work? If not, how about at least > working with me on a project to start this work? > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 > 0095 > <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl > training! > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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>>>>> "Boris" == Boris Popov <[hidden email]> writes:
Boris> One thing I would like to mention, however, is that you shouldn't be Boris> discounting the level and quality of Scriptaculous integration work Boris> that Lukas had already done. The same level of expressiveness would Boris> take a lot of essentially duplicated effort, so perhaps you could Boris> consider working on adding support for parts that Scriptaculous does Boris> not provide on its own? <http://www.urlfan.com/local/prototype_js_is_the_web_developers_internet_explorer/11222145.html>: "the problem is that it aggressively extends the base javascript Object and the Array object adding around 10 or so functions that allow it to behave as an iterator and allow subclassing. those additions are nice to have, but it means it does not play well with any other javascript libraries unless they explicitly work within the new walls it puts up." ... "here’s to hope that people will see the light and stop using prototype.js unless they want to live in their walled garden." So, I forbid the use of prototype.js in any project I'm workng on as long as it has this broken behavior. Hence, I cannot just *add* to Lukas work. I just wish he hadn't picked the wrong library. :-( Maybe I can keep the same interface, but rip the guts out to replace the scriptalicious behavior with equivalents from YUI. If anyone wants to work on that with me, starting from a proper base of YUI (including CSS Reset, etc), I'll be happy to coordinate. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
Randal, I'm interested in helping. I want to ensure it works in GemStone as well as Squeak. I personally won't be much help in development, but I can do testing and possibly fix things that don't work in GemStone. I'll be glad to provide a Monticello repository for the project at http://seaside.gemstone.com/ss/ -- which is quite suitable for Squeak as well as GemStone. Cheers,
> -----Original Message-----
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In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
> So, I forbid the use of prototype.js in any project I'm workng on as long as
> it has this broken behavior. Hence, I cannot just *add* to Lukas work. I > just wish he hadn't picked the wrong library. :-( 1. Please check out the Scriptaculous history in Monticello before making false assertions in public. 2. At the time when script.aculo.us was picket (June 2005), there was no other decent JavaScript library around. Cheers, Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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>>>>> "Lukas" == Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]> writes:
Lukas> 1. Please check out the Scriptaculous history in Monticello before Lukas> making false assertions in public. I realize that prototype 1.5 fixes some of the problems. It doesn't fix all of them. I don't think that's a false assertion. Lukas> 2. At the time when script.aculo.us was picket (June 2005), there was Lukas> no other decent JavaScript library around. I don't mean to sound like you made the wrong decision at the time. I just mean that in light of today's YUI availability, you bet on the wrong pony. I hope to correct that by helping to create a complete YUI interface instead. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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> Lukas> 1. Please check out the Scriptaculous history in Monticello before
> Lukas> making false assertions in public. > > I realize that prototype 1.5 fixes some of the problems. It doesn't fix all > of them. I don't think that's a false assertion. This is not what I ment, but anyway. > Lukas> 2. At the time when script.aculo.us was picket (June 2005), there was > Lukas> no other decent JavaScript library around. > > I don't mean to sound like you made the wrong decision at the time. I just > mean that in light of today's YUI availability, you bet on the wrong pony. I > hope to correct that by helping to create a complete YUI interface instead. You are comparing apples and oranges. YUI is mostly a widget library, while Prototype is a framework to assist AJAX application development. As of today I would indeed choose a different library. However I am certain that Prototype is a far better choice than YUI for what it does. I don't need ready made JavaScript widgets, I want lightweight tools to have more control over the client side. YUI is bloated and overly complex. It hardly matches the model of stateful components in Seaside. Cheers, Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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Why not Ext.js <http://extjs.com/> instead of YUI?
On 10/30/07, Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]> wrote: > Lukas> 1. Please check out the Scriptaculous history in Monticello before _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
Randal,
Have you looked at ExtJS (http://extjs.com)? I'm developing a project based on this widget set for a client. Many parts of YUI and ExtJS are, as Lukas mentioned, not particularly well-suited for Seaside's stateful component approach however I think I can find a decent combination of both systems' strengths for my current project. Unfortunately I'm tightly constrained timewise (UI demo in about three weeks). I have permission to share the Squeak-ExtJS code (once there is anything worth sharing) and I'd welcome other contributions and discussion but I'm not in a position to participate in a community development project, if you know what I mean. Maybe after a successful demo though. Anyway if there's one thing I'm struggling with more than anything it is the design of the "Javascript in Smalltalk" code which achieves a decent balance: 1) Smalltalk code should reflect Javascript code 2) Smalltalk objects to should semantically represent Javascript objects (not syntax), if possible 3) The API of the Javascript objects should be evident in Smalltalk I'm not sure about 3. Basically it says that for each Javascript class we want a Smalltalk class with the same methods (although the Smalltalk methods simply produce Smalltalk values to represent their result). The problem with this is, of course, that we can't predict the return types of all Javascript methods which makes this approach "shallow" (you can send messages to objects that you've created directly but not to objects returned by their methods except in the cases where you're sure of the interface of the return type). If we drop 3 then something much less concrete than the SUObject hierarchy appears...something more like a "proxy" which uses DNU to generate javascript syntax objects. This is my current approach. The next couple days will tell me a lot about it. This could act as a core to both an ExtJS and a YUI implementation... BTW, "yes", I know about ST2JS. It might provide a solution but I just don't quite see how to make it work yet. David _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Ignacio Vivona-2
Hey Ignacio, I just took look at the EXT stuff and I must say that it looks very nice.
Thanks for the info, -Conrad On 10/30/07, Ignacio Vivona <[hidden email]> wrote: Why not Ext.js <a href="http://extjs.com/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><http://extjs.com/> instead of YUI? _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Lukas Renggli
Hi, I have been using Prototype and Scriptaculous for a bit over a year
and pleased with the performance that it gives my applications.
Also, they are considered to be lower level frameworks for building
AJAX applicationn whereis YUI and EXT tend to more widget based.
Furthermore, EXT can be used on top of YUI, JQuery or Prototype.
Thus, it might be a good idea to have adapters for these various
frameworks so that one can easily switch and/or use them.
-Conrad On 10/30/07, Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]
> wrote: > Lukas> 1. Please check out the Scriptaculous history in Monticello before _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
javascript libraries (was Re: YUI)
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Whilst we're on the subject of javascript libraries, would anyone
offer any opinion on mootools and jQuery? Or any other rated library for that matter. Cheers, Mike _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Conrad Taylor
That's right, we dont have to throw away scriptaculous. They can coexist. EXT would be a nice addition to Seaside because i dont see many seaside widget, but that's maybe me not doing my research ...
On 10/30/07, Conrad Taylor <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi, I have been using Prototype and Scriptaculous for a bit over a year and pleased with the performance that it gives my applications. Also, they are considered to be lower level frameworks for building AJAX applicationn whereis YUI and EXT tend to more widget based. Furthermore, EXT can be used on top of YUI, JQuery or Prototype. Thus, it might be a good idea to have adapters for these various frameworks so that one can easily switch and/or use them. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
> -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre > de Randal L. Schwartz > Enviado el: Martes, 30 de Octubre de 2007 11:56 > Para: Lukas Renggli > CC: Seaside - general discussion > Asunto: Re: [Seaside] YUI > ... > I don't mean to sound like you made the wrong decision at the > time. I just mean that in light of today's YUI availability, > you bet on the wrong pony. I hope to correct that by helping > to create a complete YUI interface instead. I just would try to evade misleading comparisions and fortunately for all nothing is stopping you to do that. To have more options is good. Sebastian > > -- > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - > +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> > <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and > open-enrollment Perl training! > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Conrad Taylor
Yes. Plus one here. I'm being able to build my own
widgets with a mix of pure Seaside, Model View Presenter hierarchy of seaside
components and the Scriptaculous Prototype (can't be without them). So by now
I'm not seduced by out of the box widgets smalltalk-doubtely-scalable built with
technologies that for sure will introduce a lot of impedance to assimilate in
Smalltalk. MVP is so much better than any mapping to any non smalltalk
framework.
cheers,
Sebastian
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Sebastian Sastre wrote:
> Yes. Plus one here. I'm being able to build my own widgets with a mix > of pure Seaside, Model View Presenter hierarchy of seaside components > and the Scriptaculous Prototype (can't be without them). So by now I'm > not seduced by out of the box widgets smalltalk-doubtely-scalable > built with technologies that for sure will introduce a lot of > impedance to assimilate in Smalltalk. MVP is so much better than any > mapping to any non smalltalk framework. > > cheers, > > Sebastian quality of the out-of-the-box UI produced by ExtJS far exceeds anything I have available in Smalltalk and anything I could produce in a reasonable amount of time with Smalltalk+Scriptaculous. Adopting something like ExtJS is a difficult choice to make but it certainly makes sense for some applications. David _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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> > Sebastian
I see your point. As I see you bring a trade off in spend that (reasonable)
> I don't doubt that this is true for many applications. > However the quality of the out-of-the-box UI produced by > ExtJS far exceeds anything I have available in Smalltalk and > anything I could produce in a reasonable amount of time with > Smalltalk+Scriptaculous. Adopting something like ExtJS is a > difficult choice to make but it certainly makes sense for > some applications. > > David > time in smalltalk or in using smalltalk to map something made by another community. Nothing wrong with that, could be good as the Prototye experience we are having now, I don't know. So maybe it's time to evaluate the option. I think before convincing myself of that having sense I would: 1. one should quantify that impedance 2. see if one finds a mapping design that is useful for the long run 3. see if the the life of ExtJS will be long enough to make this worth 4. evaluate ExtJS community support 5. see if the design will pollute or not the seaside-smalltalk way to do things (easiness to virtualize conceptual models) 6. compare that with pure smalltalk seaside results Why we can't have our own (community) hierarchy of gorgeous widgets on top of smalltalk-seaside-prototype-scriptaculous? cheers, Sebastian _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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> Why we can't have our own (community) hierarchy of gorgeous widgets on top > of smalltalk-seaside-prototype-scriptaculous? > > cheers, > > Sebastian > > There is no reason why we cannot. I must admit that I am happier with stuff that I can manage in my Smalltalk IDE. Currently we have ShoreComponents, but up until now these components have always needed some integration work (no matter how small) in order to add them to your application. Thats where the ShoreHelper comes in... Keith p.s. We could hijack the OMeta code that allows you to write Javascript in a Smalltalk Browser and enable Squeak to become and IDE for serverside smalltalk AND client side javascript. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by cdavidshaffer
Eh - seems like they're trying a little too hard to look like
Windows. I'd have to see how easy it is to style things for different looks. I've seen the themes posted - they just address color scheme. On Oct 31, 2007, at 6:29 AM, C. David Shaffer wrote: > Sebastian Sastre wrote: >> Yes. Plus one here. I'm being able to build my own widgets with a >> mix of pure Seaside, Model View Presenter hierarchy of seaside >> components and the Scriptaculous Prototype (can't be without >> them). So by now I'm not seduced by out of the box widgets >> smalltalk-doubtely-scalable built with technologies that for sure >> will introduce a lot of impedance to assimilate in Smalltalk. MVP >> is so much better than any mapping to any non smalltalk framework. >> cheers, >> Sebastian > I don't doubt that this is true for many applications. However the > quality of the out-of-the-box UI produced by ExtJS far exceeds > anything I have available in Smalltalk and anything I could produce > in a reasonable amount of time with Smalltalk+Scriptaculous. > Adopting something like ExtJS is a difficult choice to make but it > certainly makes sense for some applications. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by keith1y
I'm also hapier when I can custom and scale with my own code Keith. That's why I've asked. If we *have* to spend time and effort to achieve interfaces like those why don't spend it where we know has simplicity and compexity-scalability: Smalltalk. I know and use ShoreComponents for some basic stuff. It's OK but is not great. So with all due respect for who made it is not comparable to a half of the experience that ExtJS interfaces can give. So my point is that we can make interfaces comparable to ExtJS but from Smalltalk. Take any of those gorgeous lists and try to make something different on how they show things. Like putting different presenters depending on the model of the item in the list so showing completely heterogeneous things. End of ExtJS party. But if that was made in Smalltalk.. it's another story because the show continues. cheers, Sebastian > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre > de Keith Hodges > Enviado el: Miércoles, 31 de Octubre de 2007 13:06 > Para: Seaside - general discussion > Asunto: Re: [Seaside] YUI > > > > Why we can't have our own (community) hierarchy of gorgeous > widgets on > > top of smalltalk-seaside-prototype-scriptaculous? > > > > cheers, > > > > Sebastian > > > > > There is no reason why we cannot. I must admit that I am > happier with stuff that I can manage in my Smalltalk IDE. > > Currently we have ShoreComponents, but up until now these > components have always needed some integration work (no > matter how small) in order to add them to your application. > > Thats where the ShoreHelper comes in... > > Keith > > p.s. > > We could hijack the OMeta code that allows you to write > Javascript in a Smalltalk Browser and enable Squeak to become > and IDE for serverside smalltalk AND client side javascript. > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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