a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

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a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Randal L. Schwartz

You may notice squeak.org a bit sluggish over the next few hours.

In the past board meeting, we all echoed and reechoed our concern that
squeak.org wasn't being backed up anywhere off box.  At all. For a very
long time.  Yes, isn't that crazy?  All of squeak.org on a single
spindle.

Finally, after much coaxing and promising of purchases of
fine single-malt scotch (just kidding about that last part, but I
wouldn't refuse it if offered), I volunteered some spare disk space and
bandwidth on the company server (red.stonehenge.com) to begin a series
of steps to modernize our platform.

Step 1 is happening now.  I'm cloning the image and changes and
datafiles that drive squeak.org.  I'll then set up a cron job to make
sure that is refreshed daily, perhaps even hourly.

Step 2 will happen WITH THE HELP OF SOMEONE FROM THE VM TEAM (nudge
nudge).  I need to build a VM that runs on FreeBSD.  If I can do that, I
can fire up a "hot spare" site that works like squeak.org although
you'll have to get to it with a weird URL.  My last attempt to do that
failed, and I'm not sure why, except I blamed it on a linux-ism.  So if
someone FROM THE VM TEAM will please give me precise build instructions
for FreeBSD, I'll be happy to give it a try again.

Step 3 is very likely (but still in the proposal phase) that the Board
will approve me to rent a new VPS (very likely at arpnetworks.com/vps)
to build a new home for squeak.org that is on RAID disk and redundant
power supply and IPV6 ready and running ZFS for point-in-time snapshots
(needed with Squeak for backups).  At that point, we'll decommission the
old squeak.org, and I'll be the defacto head of the Box Team, if not its
only member (since Ken wants to move on, and I don't blame him).

So, if squeak.org is a big sluggish while I grab the first 11.2GB
snapshot, please be patient.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion

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Re: a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Igor Stasenko
On 18 March 2011 01:52, Randal L. Schwartz <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> You may notice squeak.org a bit sluggish over the next few hours.
>
> In the past board meeting, we all echoed and reechoed our concern that
> squeak.org wasn't being backed up anywhere off box.  At all. For a very
> long time.  Yes, isn't that crazy?  All of squeak.org on a single
> spindle.
>
> Finally, after much coaxing and promising of purchases of
> fine single-malt scotch (just kidding about that last part, but I
> wouldn't refuse it if offered), I volunteered some spare disk space and
> bandwidth on the company server (red.stonehenge.com) to begin a series
> of steps to modernize our platform.
>
> Step 1 is happening now.  I'm cloning the image and changes and
> datafiles that drive squeak.org.  I'll then set up a cron job to make
> sure that is refreshed daily, perhaps even hourly.
>
> Step 2 will happen WITH THE HELP OF SOMEONE FROM THE VM TEAM (nudge
> nudge).  I need to build a VM that runs on FreeBSD.  If I can do that, I
> can fire up a "hot spare" site that works like squeak.org although
> you'll have to get to it with a weird URL.  My last attempt to do that
> failed, and I'm not sure why, except I blamed it on a linux-ism.  So if
> someone FROM THE VM TEAM will please give me precise build instructions
> for FreeBSD, I'll be happy to give it a try again.
>

I'd be happy to help and make a build StackVM/Cog configs for FreeBSD.
I love this platform , it was my first unix platform i working with.

So, if you want to try it out, check the
https://pharo-ic.lille.inria.fr/hudson/view/Cog/job/Stack%20VM%20Unix/
there is:
https://pharo-ic.lille.inria.fr/hudson/view/Cog/job/Stack%20VM%20Unix/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/StackInterpreterUnixConfig-sources.tar.gz
which contains all sources ready to build.
unpack them, then go to build dir
fix paths in directories.cmake file

and then run:
cmake .
make

Option #2:

gimme shell access to your box, so i can test the config.

if we succeed with building stack vm, then we can proceed and try
building JIT as well..
But stack VM is simpler for getting started.

> Step 3 is very likely (but still in the proposal phase) that the Board
> will approve me to rent a new VPS (very likely at arpnetworks.com/vps)
> to build a new home for squeak.org that is on RAID disk and redundant
> power supply and IPV6 ready and running ZFS for point-in-time snapshots
> (needed with Squeak for backups).  At that point, we'll decommission the
> old squeak.org, and I'll be the defacto head of the Box Team, if not its
> only member (since Ken wants to move on, and I don't blame him).
>
> So, if squeak.org is a big sluggish while I grab the first 11.2GB
> snapshot, please be patient.
>
> --
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
> <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
>
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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Re: a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

David T. Lewis
In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 05:52:46PM -0700, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

>
> You may notice squeak.org a bit sluggish over the next few hours.
>
> In the past board meeting, we all echoed and reechoed our concern that
> squeak.org wasn't being backed up anywhere off box.  At all. For a very
> long time.  Yes, isn't that crazy?  All of squeak.org on a single
> spindle.
>
> Finally, after much coaxing and promising of purchases of
> fine single-malt scotch (just kidding about that last part, but I
> wouldn't refuse it if offered), I volunteered some spare disk space and
> bandwidth on the company server (red.stonehenge.com) to begin a series
> of steps to modernize our platform.

Bravo! Thank you.

>
> Step 1 is happening now.  I'm cloning the image and changes and
> datafiles that drive squeak.org.  I'll then set up a cron job to make
> sure that is refreshed daily, perhaps even hourly.
>
> Step 2 will happen WITH THE HELP OF SOMEONE FROM THE VM TEAM (nudge
> nudge).  I need to build a VM that runs on FreeBSD.  If I can do that, I
> can fire up a "hot spare" site that works like squeak.org although
> you'll have to get to it with a weird URL.  My last attempt to do that
> failed, and I'm not sure why, except I blamed it on a linux-ism.  So if
> someone FROM THE VM TEAM will please give me precise build instructions
> for FreeBSD, I'll be happy to give it a try again.

Well, I don't happen to have a FreeBSD box, and my time is going to
be really limited over the next week, but what the heck, how hard
can it possibly be? ;) So yes I will be *more* than happy to help
you with this. Can you give me a pointer to where you left off in
the previous attempt (I think I recall it being on one of the mailing
lists)?

Dave

>
> Step 3 is very likely (but still in the proposal phase) that the Board
> will approve me to rent a new VPS (very likely at arpnetworks.com/vps)
> to build a new home for squeak.org that is on RAID disk and redundant
> power supply and IPV6 ready and running ZFS for point-in-time snapshots
> (needed with Squeak for backups).  At that point, we'll decommission the
> old squeak.org, and I'll be the defacto head of the Box Team, if not its
> only member (since Ken wants to move on, and I don't blame him).
>
> So, if squeak.org is a big sluggish while I grab the first 11.2GB
> snapshot, please be patient.
>
> --
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
> <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion

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Re: a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Chris Muller-3
In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
We can all sleep a little better, huge thanks Randal!  I don't know
anything about single-malt scotch, but I'll at least buy you a beer if
we ever meet.

  - Chris

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 7:52 PM, Randal L. Schwartz
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> You may notice squeak.org a bit sluggish over the next few hours.
>
> In the past board meeting, we all echoed and reechoed our concern that
> squeak.org wasn't being backed up anywhere off box.  At all. For a very
> long time.  Yes, isn't that crazy?  All of squeak.org on a single
> spindle.
>
> Finally, after much coaxing and promising of purchases of
> fine single-malt scotch (just kidding about that last part, but I
> wouldn't refuse it if offered), I volunteered some spare disk space and
> bandwidth on the company server (red.stonehenge.com) to begin a series
> of steps to modernize our platform.
>
> Step 1 is happening now.  I'm cloning the image and changes and
> datafiles that drive squeak.org.  I'll then set up a cron job to make
> sure that is refreshed daily, perhaps even hourly.
>
> Step 2 will happen WITH THE HELP OF SOMEONE FROM THE VM TEAM (nudge
> nudge).  I need to build a VM that runs on FreeBSD.  If I can do that, I
> can fire up a "hot spare" site that works like squeak.org although
> you'll have to get to it with a weird URL.  My last attempt to do that
> failed, and I'm not sure why, except I blamed it on a linux-ism.  So if
> someone FROM THE VM TEAM will please give me precise build instructions
> for FreeBSD, I'll be happy to give it a try again.
>
> Step 3 is very likely (but still in the proposal phase) that the Board
> will approve me to rent a new VPS (very likely at arpnetworks.com/vps)
> to build a new home for squeak.org that is on RAID disk and redundant
> power supply and IPV6 ready and running ZFS for point-in-time snapshots
> (needed with Squeak for backups).  At that point, we'll decommission the
> old squeak.org, and I'll be the defacto head of the Box Team, if not its
> only member (since Ken wants to move on, and I don't blame him).
>
> So, if squeak.org is a big sluggish while I grab the first 11.2GB
> snapshot, please be patient.
>
> --
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
> <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
>
>

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Re: [Vm-dev] Re: [squeak-dev] a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

David T. Lewis
In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 02:01:15AM +0100, Igor Stasenko wrote:

>
> On 18 March 2011 01:52, Randal L. Schwartz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > You may notice squeak.org a bit sluggish over the next few hours.
> >
> > In the past board meeting, we all echoed and reechoed our concern that
> > squeak.org wasn't being backed up anywhere off box. ??At all. For a very
> > long time. ??Yes, isn't that crazy? ??All of squeak.org on a single
> > spindle.
> >
> > Finally, after much coaxing and promising of purchases of
> > fine single-malt scotch (just kidding about that last part, but I
> > wouldn't refuse it if offered), I volunteered some spare disk space and
> > bandwidth on the company server (red.stonehenge.com) to begin a series
> > of steps to modernize our platform.
> >
> > Step 1 is happening now. ??I'm cloning the image and changes and
> > datafiles that drive squeak.org. ??I'll then set up a cron job to make
> > sure that is refreshed daily, perhaps even hourly.
> >
> > Step 2 will happen WITH THE HELP OF SOMEONE FROM THE VM TEAM (nudge
> > nudge). ??I need to build a VM that runs on FreeBSD. ??If I can do that, I
> > can fire up a "hot spare" site that works like squeak.org although
> > you'll have to get to it with a weird URL. ??My last attempt to do that
> > failed, and I'm not sure why, except I blamed it on a linux-ism. ??So if
> > someone FROM THE VM TEAM will please give me precise build instructions
> > for FreeBSD, I'll be happy to give it a try again.
> >
>
> I'd be happy to help and make a build StackVM/Cog configs for FreeBSD.
> I love this platform , it was my first unix platform i working with.

Outstanding, thanks Igor!

Randal, my offer to help stands also, but Igor has FreeBSD experience
and also can provide a much faster Cog VM, so I would encourage you to
take advantage of his offer. You also can accept help from both of us,
in which case you will probably end up with more VMs than you know what
to do with :)

Dave

>
> So, if you want to try it out, check the
> https://pharo-ic.lille.inria.fr/hudson/view/Cog/job/Stack%20VM%20Unix/
> there is:
> https://pharo-ic.lille.inria.fr/hudson/view/Cog/job/Stack%20VM%20Unix/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/StackInterpreterUnixConfig-sources.tar.gz
> which contains all sources ready to build.
> unpack them, then go to build dir
> fix paths in directories.cmake file
>
> and then run:
> cmake .
> make
>
> Option #2:
>
> gimme shell access to your box, so i can test the config.
>
> if we succeed with building stack vm, then we can proceed and try
> building JIT as well..
> But stack VM is simpler for getting started.
>
> > Step 3 is very likely (but still in the proposal phase) that the Board
> > will approve me to rent a new VPS (very likely at arpnetworks.com/vps)
> > to build a new home for squeak.org that is on RAID disk and redundant
> > power supply and IPV6 ready and running ZFS for point-in-time snapshots
> > (needed with Squeak for backups). ??At that point, we'll decommission the
> > old squeak.org, and I'll be the defacto head of the Box Team, if not its
> > only member (since Ken wants to move on, and I don't blame him).
> >
> > So, if squeak.org is a big sluggish while I grab the first 11.2GB
> > snapshot, please be patient.
> >
> > --
> > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
> > <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> > Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> > See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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Re: [Vm-dev] Re: [squeak-dev] a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Randal L. Schwartz
>>>>> "David" == David T Lewis <[hidden email]> writes:

David> Randal, my offer to help stands also, but Igor has FreeBSD experience
David> and also can provide a much faster Cog VM, so I would encourage you to
David> take advantage of his offer. You also can accept help from both of us,
David> in which case you will probably end up with more VMs than you know what
David> to do with :)

Thank you!

Yes, I'll start on this next week, when the elbow grease refreshes.
I've used up my supply tonight. :)

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion

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Re: [Vm-dev] Re: [squeak-dev] a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

radoslav hodnicak
Did I miss something? I've been running squeak on freebsd/amd64 for
few years now and I certainly didn't do anything special to build the
VM. The stock unix sources compile and run. Didn't try it with Cog
yet, but is that needed for squeak.org?

Also, doesn't the current machine have disks in raid0? That's the
standard config with hetzner. Hetzner also offers some backup space
(around 100gigs IIRC, which again, should be enough).

Finally, if the Squeak services infrastructure moves to Freebsd I'm
willing to donate time to help out with the setup and running it. I
have a bunch of servers at Hetzner and very positive experience with
them and freebsd - how can linux admins live without jails?

I'd argue for renting another machine from them instead of a VPS - why
pay more for less? The current Hetzner servers (EQ line) start at
quadcore cpu/8gigs of RAM for 49 euro/month. How much would you pay to
get that virtualized? Especially the memory tends to be a problem with
smalltalks and VPSs.

rado

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 2:43 AM, Randal L. Schwartz
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>>>>>> "David" == David T Lewis <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> David> Randal, my offer to help stands also, but Igor has FreeBSD experience
> David> and also can provide a much faster Cog VM, so I would encourage you to
> David> take advantage of his offer. You also can accept help from both of us,
> David> in which case you will probably end up with more VMs than you know what
> David> to do with :)
>
> Thank you!
>
> Yes, I'll start on this next week, when the elbow grease refreshes.
> I've used up my supply tonight. :)
>
> --
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
> <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
>
>

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Re: [Vm-dev] Re: [squeak-dev] a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Randal L. Schwartz
>>>>> "radoslav" == radoslav hodnicak <[hidden email]> writes:

radoslav> Finally, if the Squeak services infrastructure moves to Freebsd I'm
radoslav> willing to donate time to help out with the setup and running it. I
radoslav> have a bunch of servers at Hetzner and very positive experience with
radoslav> them and freebsd - how can linux admins live without jails?

Thank you!

radoslav> I'd argue for renting another machine from them instead of a
radoslav> VPS - why pay more for less? The current Hetzner servers (EQ
radoslav> line) start at quadcore cpu/8gigs of RAM for 49
radoslav> euro/month. How much would you pay to get that virtualized?
radoslav> Especially the memory tends to be a problem with smalltalks
radoslav> and VPSs.

Take a look at the prices at arpnetworks.com/vps.  I'm also able to
negotiate some discount over that in exchange for publicity.  And I'd
rather have a VPS than a hard machine... if one machine goes down, it's
up to me to migrate, and immediately.  If a VPS host goes down, the
hoster has an obligation to launch my VPS on another box.  Just one more
way to keep a good SLA.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion

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Re: a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Bert Freudenberg

On 18.03.2011, at 10:07, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

>>>>>> "radoslav" == radoslav hodnicak <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> radoslav> Finally, if the Squeak services infrastructure moves to Freebsd I'm
> radoslav> willing to donate time to help out with the setup and running it. I
> radoslav> have a bunch of servers at Hetzner and very positive experience with
> radoslav> them and freebsd - how can linux admins live without jails?
>
> Thank you!
>
> radoslav> I'd argue for renting another machine from them instead of a
> radoslav> VPS - why pay more for less? The current Hetzner servers (EQ
> radoslav> line) start at quadcore cpu/8gigs of RAM for 49
> radoslav> euro/month. How much would you pay to get that virtualized?
> radoslav> Especially the memory tends to be a problem with smalltalks
> radoslav> and VPSs.
>
> Take a look at the prices at arpnetworks.com/vps.  I'm also able to
> negotiate some discount over that in exchange for publicity.  And I'd
> rather have a VPS than a hard machine... if one machine goes down, it's
> up to me to migrate, and immediately.  If a VPS host goes down, the
> hoster has an obligation to launch my VPS on another box.  Just one more
> way to keep a good SLA.

Do we know how well that virtual host performs compared to a dedicated machine? The services running on squeak.org sometimes are quite busy.

One concern with our current Hetzner setup was that the box admins did not have direct contact, but with Marcus as a German-speaking intermediary. Maybe one could switch to direct service in English.

In the long run it seems to me we should try to reduce the services we host ourselves. There are always too few people doing sysadmin stuff.

In any case, THANKS to Randal for at least doing the backup, and possibly becoming our box admin :)

- Bert -


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Re: [Vm-dev] Re: [squeak-dev] a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Levente Uzonyi-2
In reply to this post by radoslav hodnicak
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011, radoslav hodnicak wrote:

> Did I miss something? I've been running squeak on freebsd/amd64 for
> few years now and I certainly didn't do anything special to build the
> VM. The stock unix sources compile and run. Didn't try it with Cog
> yet, but is that needed for squeak.org?

Cog would definitely be useful for source.squeak.org. Though I think
upgrading to Squeak 4.2 would also improve the performance.

>
> Also, doesn't the current machine have disks in raid0? That's the

Raid0 only gives faster read and write performance. It decreases the
reliability of the system.


Levente

> standard config with hetzner. Hetzner also offers some backup space
> (around 100gigs IIRC, which again, should be enough).
>
> Finally, if the Squeak services infrastructure moves to Freebsd I'm
> willing to donate time to help out with the setup and running it. I
> have a bunch of servers at Hetzner and very positive experience with
> them and freebsd - how can linux admins live without jails?
>
> I'd argue for renting another machine from them instead of a VPS - why
> pay more for less? The current Hetzner servers (EQ line) start at
> quadcore cpu/8gigs of RAM for 49 euro/month. How much would you pay to
> get that virtualized? Especially the memory tends to be a problem with
> smalltalks and VPSs.
>
> rado
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 2:43 AM, Randal L. Schwartz
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> "David" == David T Lewis <[hidden email]> writes:
>>
>> David> Randal, my offer to help stands also, but Igor has FreeBSD experience
>> David> and also can provide a much faster Cog VM, so I would encourage you to
>> David> take advantage of his offer. You also can accept help from both of us,
>> David> in which case you will probably end up with more VMs than you know what
>> David> to do with :)
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>> Yes, I'll start on this next week, when the elbow grease refreshes.
>> I've used up my supply tonight. :)
>>
>> --
>> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
>> <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
>> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
>> See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
>>
>>
>
>

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Re: a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Levente Uzonyi-2
In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

>
> You may notice squeak.org a bit sluggish over the next few hours.
>
> In the past board meeting, we all echoed and reechoed our concern that
> squeak.org wasn't being backed up anywhere off box.  At all. For a very
> long time.  Yes, isn't that crazy?  All of squeak.org on a single
> spindle.
>
> Finally, after much coaxing and promising of purchases of
> fine single-malt scotch (just kidding about that last part, but I
> wouldn't refuse it if offered), I volunteered some spare disk space and
> bandwidth on the company server (red.stonehenge.com) to begin a series
> of steps to modernize our platform.
>
> Step 1 is happening now.  I'm cloning the image and changes and
> datafiles that drive squeak.org.  I'll then set up a cron job to make
> sure that is refreshed daily, perhaps even hourly.

Great.

>
> Step 2 will happen WITH THE HELP OF SOMEONE FROM THE VM TEAM (nudge
> nudge).  I need to build a VM that runs on FreeBSD.  If I can do that, I
> can fire up a "hot spare" site that works like squeak.org although
> you'll have to get to it with a weird URL.  My last attempt to do that
> failed, and I'm not sure why, except I blamed it on a linux-ism.  So if
> someone FROM THE VM TEAM will please give me precise build instructions
> for FreeBSD, I'll be happy to give it a try again.

Great.

>
> Step 3 is very likely (but still in the proposal phase) that the Board
> will approve me to rent a new VPS (very likely at arpnetworks.com/vps)
> to build a new home for squeak.org that is on RAID disk and redundant
> power supply and IPV6 ready and running ZFS for point-in-time snapshots
> (needed with Squeak for backups).  At that point, we'll decommission the
> old squeak.org, and I'll be the defacto head of the Box Team, if not its
> only member (since Ken wants to move on, and I don't blame him).

How much bandwidth and disk does the current server use?


Levente

>
> So, if squeak.org is a big sluggish while I grab the first 11.2GB
> snapshot, please be patient.
>
> --
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
> <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
>
>

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Re: a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Randal L. Schwartz
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
>>>>> "Bert" == Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> writes:

Bert> Do we know how well that virtual host performs compared to a
Bert> dedicated machine? The services running on squeak.org sometimes
Bert> are quite busy.

The VPSs at ARP are quite close to the metal.  I'm confident that we
could get the performance we need, with the added reduction of risk by
having the ability to migrate the entire setup to new hardware at a
moment's notice, automatically by the ISP.

Bert> One concern with our current Hetzner setup was that the box admins
Bert> did not have direct contact, but with Marcus as a German-speaking
Bert> intermediary. Maybe one could switch to direct service in English.

That would certainly be solved by moving to ARP.  Not to mention it
being primarily in LA instead of somewhere further away.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion

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Re: a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Randal L. Schwartz
In reply to this post by Levente Uzonyi-2
>>>>> "Levente" == Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> writes:

Levente> How much bandwidth and disk does the current server use?

That will be part of my research for step 3. :)

By the way, Step 1 is complete!

The active part of the disk is now cloned, safely squirreled away in a
box in Los Angeles, and backups are being made three times an hour.
And, because of ZFS snapshots I'm taking on my machine, we actually have
snapshots of *that* at every 10 minutes for two days, every hour for two
(four?)  weeks, and every day *forever* (or whenever I run out of disk
and start stabbing some of the old ones away).  ZFS rules.

I won't be able to get to step 2 until I get some free time next week.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion

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Re: [Vm-dev] Re: [squeak-dev] a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

radoslav hodnicak
In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Randal L. Schwartz
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> radoslav> I'd argue for renting another machine from them instead of a
> radoslav> VPS - why pay more for less? The current Hetzner servers (EQ
> radoslav> line) start at quadcore cpu/8gigs of RAM for 49
> radoslav> euro/month. How much would you pay to get that virtualized?
> radoslav> Especially the memory tends to be a problem with smalltalks
> radoslav> and VPSs.
>
> Take a look at the prices at arpnetworks.com/vps.  I'm also able to
> negotiate some discount over that in exchange for publicity.  And I'd
> rather have a VPS than a hard machine... if one machine goes down, it's
> up to me to migrate, and immediately.  If a VPS host goes down, the
> hoster has an obligation to launch my VPS on another box.  Just one more
> way to keep a good SLA.

I'm looking at the prices. I'd imagine squeak.org needs a machine that
has at least 2gigs of ram to run the various squeak images, which is
60 bucks at ARP.

60 bucks at ARP gets you
2gigs RAM
60gigs disk space
600gigs traffic

~65 bucks at Hetzner gets you
8gigs RAM
750gigs disk space
5000gigs traffic

I'm not against a virtual machine per se, but those ARP prices don't
look appealing to me. And let me repeat that services written in
squeak tend to be memory hungry.

>> Also, doesn't the current machine have disks in raid0? That's the
>
> Raid0 only gives faster read and write performance. It decreases the
> reliability of the system.

Er yeah, I meant mirror. I always get the numbers mixed up

rado

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Re: [Vm-dev] Re: [squeak-dev] a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Hannes Hirzel
On 3/18/11, radoslav hodnicak <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Randal L. Schwartz
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> radoslav> I'd argue for renting another machine from them instead of a
>> radoslav> VPS - why pay more for less? The current Hetzner servers (EQ
>> radoslav> line) start at quadcore cpu/8gigs of RAM for 49
>> radoslav> euro/month. How much would you pay to get that virtualized?
>> radoslav> Especially the memory tends to be a problem with smalltalks
>> radoslav> and VPSs.
>>
>> Take a look at the prices at arpnetworks.com/vps.  I'm also able to
>> negotiate some discount over that in exchange for publicity.  And I'd
>> rather have a VPS than a hard machine... if one machine goes down, it's
>> up to me to migrate, and immediately.  If a VPS host goes down, the
>> hoster has an obligation to launch my VPS on another box.  Just one more
>> way to keep a good SLA.
>
> I'm looking at the prices. I'd imagine squeak.org needs a machine that
> has at least 2gigs of ram to run the various squeak images, which is
> 60 bucks at ARP.
>
> 60 bucks at ARP gets you
> 2gigs RAM
> 60gigs disk space
> 600gigs traffic
>
> ~65 bucks at Hetzner gets you
> 8gigs RAM
> 750gigs disk space
> 5000gigs traffic
>
> I'm not against a virtual machine per se, but those ARP prices don't
> look appealing to me. And let me repeat that services written in
> squeak tend to be memory hungry.
>
>>> Also, doesn't the current machine have disks in raid0? That's the
>>
>> Raid0 only gives faster read and write performance. It decreases the
>> reliability of the system.
>
> Er yeah, I meant mirror. I always get the numbers mixed up
>
> rado


So you meant Raid 1 --- a server is supposed to have redundancy in the
harddisk otherwise it would not be a server.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID#Standard_levels
RAID 0 (block-level striping without parity  or mirroring) has no (or
zero) redundancy.

"0"   NO redundancy

In RAID 1 (mirroring without parity or striping), data is written
identically to multiple disks (a "mirrored set").

And MOST IMPORTANT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID#Data_backup

"A RAID system used as a main system disk is not intended as a
replacement for backing up data. In parity configurations it will
provide a backup-like feature to protect from catastrophic data loss
caused by physical damage or errors on a single drive. Many other
features of backup systems cannot be provided by RAID arrays alone.
The most notable is the ability to restore an earlier version of data,
which is needed to protect against software errors causing unwanted
data to be written to the disk, and to recover from user error or
malicious deletion."

Conclusion:
So actually a backup should not be too frequent if it only has one
version; e.g. a daily or weekly backup would be fine.


--Hannes

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Re: a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Frank Shearar
In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
On 2011/03/18 15:09, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

>>>>>> "Levente" == Levente Uzonyi<[hidden email]>  writes:
>
> Levente>  How much bandwidth and disk does the current server use?
>
> That will be part of my research for step 3. :)
>
> By the way, Step 1 is complete!
>
> The active part of the disk is now cloned, safely squirreled away in a
> box in Los Angeles, and backups are being made three times an hour.
> And, because of ZFS snapshots I'm taking on my machine, we actually have
> snapshots of *that* at every 10 minutes for two days, every hour for two
> (four?)  weeks, and every day *forever* (or whenever I run out of disk
> and start stabbing some of the old ones away).  ZFS rules.

It may just be FreeBSD 7 + amd64, but I've a server running in a jail on
a machine that USED TO run ZFS. "Used to" because it mostly Just Worked
except when it really, really didn't. Apparently the issues have been
resolved in FreeBSD 8 though.

frank

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Re: a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Stephan Eggermont-3
In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
Randal wrote:
> If a VPS host goes down, the
>hoster has an obligation to launch my VPS on another box.  Just one more
>way to keep a good SLA.

Well, ARP provides unmanaged VPS's for that price.
I guess that means you are entitled to a new fresh VPS,
which you can then reinstall. As backups are not included,
I don't see how they could offer that SLA.

That is to say, if I read
http://support.arpnetworks.com/kb/vps/what-is-supported
correctly.

Stephan Eggermont


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Re: a tiny bit of lag on squeak.org for good reason

Colin Putney-3
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Randal wrote:
>> If a VPS host goes down, the
>>hoster has an obligation to launch my VPS on another box.  Just one more
>>way to keep a good SLA.
>
> Well, ARP provides unmanaged VPS's for that price.
> I guess that means you are entitled to a new fresh VPS,
> which you can then reinstall. As backups are not included,
> I don't see how they could offer that SLA.

You have to make a distinction between the real physical hardware and
the virtual machines they host. The physical hardware is the
responsibility of ARP. If a power supply blows up, it's their problem
and they have to get your virtual machine up and running on another
physical machine. OTOH, if you don't pay attention to security and
somebody does 'rm -rf /' on your virtual machine, well that's your
problem. Randal was talking about the first case, you're talking about
the second.

> That is to say, if I read
> http://support.arpnetworks.com/kb/vps/what-is-supported
> correctly.

You'll notice that "hardware, and VM hosts" is included in "our
responsibility" while "Managing a UNIX-based operating system" is part
of "your responsibility".

Colin