[ann] pillar support in gtinspector

> Hi,
>
>
> On 29/08/16 21:47, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
>
> [...]
> >
> >
> > > It pains me that we are editing Pillar in outside tools, and now we
> > > should no longer have to do that. Of course, this is not the most
> > > ideal tool support for Pillar but I think it is a reasonable start.
> >
> > To make things sadder: when I need to write some short “richish" I’m
> > using markdown instead for pillar because in ATOM I can open the
> > rendered version of my document that will update while i type (and will
> > display images and so on). It could be nice to have the same
> > functionality in Pharo, but I’m really busy with improving other parts.
> > Additionally I’m not sure that it makes sense to reimplement rich text
> > editor in Pharo.
> >
> > Uko
> >
>
> For me it would be really nice to have this kind of support for markdown.
> That's the language I'm using for writing my PhD thesis in Pharo, and in
> fact now that I'm in hackademia Summer School[1] is nice to find some other
> PhD students that in fact are using markdown in their writing.
>
> [1] http://www.leuphana.de/en/research-centers/cdc/digital-cultures-research-lab/events/summer-school-2016.html
>
> Having syntax highlighting and graphics preview for markdown would be a way
> to introduce some new non-technical users and researchers to the Pharo
> world, reproducible research, interactive documentation and modable tools,
> but we need to start in a place they know, for example its markup language.

> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 07:50:10AM +0200, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> On 29/08/16 21:47, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>> >
>> >
>> > > It pains me that we are editing Pillar in outside tools, and now we
>> > > should no longer have to do that. Of course, this is not the most
>> > > ideal tool support for Pillar but I think it is a reasonable start.
>> >
>> > To make things sadder: when I need to write some short “richish" I’m
>> > using markdown instead for pillar because in ATOM I can open the
>> > rendered version of my document that will update while i type (and will
>> > display images and so on). It could be nice to have the same
>> > functionality in Pharo, but I’m really busy with improving other parts.
>> > Additionally I’m not sure that it makes sense to reimplement rich text
>> > editor in Pharo.
>> >
>> > Uko
>> >
>>
>> For me it would be really nice to have this kind of support for markdown.
>> That's the language I'm using for writing my PhD thesis in Pharo, and in
>> fact now that I'm in hackademia Summer School[1] is nice to find some other
>> PhD students that in fact are using markdown in their writing.
>>
>> [1] http://www.leuphana.de/en/research-centers/cdc/digital-cultures-research-lab/events/summer-school-2016.html
>>
>> Having syntax highlighting and graphics preview for markdown would be a way
>> to introduce some new non-technical users and researchers to the Pharo
>> world, reproducible research, interactive documentation and modable tools,
>> but we need to start in a place they know, for example its markup language.
>
> I don't really see the benefit of pushing Markdown into Pharo at _this moment_ (there is PetitParser for some flavor of md though).
> If you want to use Markdown, then there is already fifteen billion of other tools outside.
>
> If you want deep integration with Pharo, then that takes a lot of effort, which is being invested into Pillar, because Pillar is aiming to be a much more powerful format --- maybe one day comparable to reStructuredText and to what Python does with rst/sphinx.

> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Peter Uhnak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 07:50:10AM +0200, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 29/08/16 21:47, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>> It pains me that we are editing Pillar in outside tools, and now we
>>>>> should no longer have to do that. Of course, this is not the most
>>>>> ideal tool support for Pillar but I think it is a reasonable start.
>>>> To make things sadder: when I need to write some short “richish" I’m
>>>> using markdown instead for pillar because in ATOM I can open the
>>>> rendered version of my document that will update while i type (and will
>>>> display images and so on). It could be nice to have the same
>>>> functionality in Pharo, but I’m really busy with improving other parts.
>>>> Additionally I’m not sure that it makes sense to reimplement rich text
>>>> editor in Pharo.
>>>>
>>>> Uko
>>>>
>>> For me it would be really nice to have this kind of support for markdown.
>>> That's the language I'm using for writing my PhD thesis in Pharo, and in
>>> fact now that I'm in hackademia Summer School[1] is nice to find some other
>>> PhD students that in fact are using markdown in their writing.
>>>
>>> [1] http://www.leuphana.de/en/research-centers/cdc/digital-cultures-research-lab/events/summer-school-2016.html
>>>
>>> Having syntax highlighting and graphics preview for markdown would be a way
>>> to introduce some new non-technical users and researchers to the Pharo
>>> world, reproducible research, interactive documentation and modable tools,
>>> but we need to start in a place they know, for example its markup language.
>> I don't really see the benefit of pushing Markdown into Pharo at _this moment_ (there is PetitParser for some flavor of md though).
>> If you want to use Markdown, then there is already fifteen billion of other tools outside.
>>
>> If you want deep integration with Pharo, then that takes a lot of effort, which is being invested into Pillar, because Pillar is aiming to be a much more powerful format --- maybe one day comparable to reStructuredText and to what Python does with rst/sphinx.
>
> Yes a lot of effort has already been put on Pillar and should continue
> this effort.
> If you want to use Markdown, you can use existing tools outside the image.
>
>> Don't forget that markdown, although an excellent markup for what it knows, is also very simplistic.
>> So if you want to use Markdown for PhD, then you are actually not using markdown, but most likely pandoc (or some richer syntax, such as scholarly markdown)... and support for either is another order of magnitude more complex.
>>
>> Bottom line(s):
>>          * there's a continuous investment into improvement and deep integration of Pillar
>>          * not enough resources to go around and implement any notation
>>          * Markdown is too simplistic for any advanced writing (and yes, I used it to write papers and my thesis, but it also includes pandoc and many make/bash/ruby scripts to hack around)
> Markdown is not a good idea for thesis, but org-mode+org-babel is
> quite good for papers. You might have a look to
> Scimax that is based on these tools: http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu/scimax
>

>
> Thanks,
>
> Offray
>
>
> On 30/08/16 14:10, Serge Stinckwich wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Peter Uhnak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 07:50:10AM +0200, Offray Vladimir Luna
>>> Cárdenas wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 29/08/16 21:47, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>> It pains me that we are editing Pillar in outside tools, and now we
>>>>>> should no longer have to do that. Of course, this is not the most
>>>>>> ideal tool support for Pillar but I think it is a reasonable start.
>>>>> To make things sadder: when I need to write some short “richish" I’m
>>>>> using markdown instead for pillar because in ATOM I can open the
>>>>> rendered version of my document that will update while i type (and
>>>>> will
>>>>> display images and so on). It could be nice to have the same
>>>>> functionality in Pharo, but I’m really busy with improving other
>>>>> parts.
>>>>> Additionally I’m not sure that it makes sense to reimplement rich
>>>>> text
>>>>> editor in Pharo.
>>>>>
>>>>> Uko
>>>>>
>>>> For me it would be really nice to have this kind of support for
>>>> markdown.
>>>> That's the language I'm using for writing my PhD thesis in Pharo,
>>>> and in
>>>> fact now that I'm in hackademia Summer School[1] is nice to find
>>>> some other
>>>> PhD students that in fact are using markdown in their writing.
>>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>> http://www.leuphana.de/en/research-centers/cdc/digital-cultures-research-lab/events/summer-school-2016.html
>>>>
>>>> Having syntax highlighting and graphics preview for markdown would
>>>> be a way
>>>> to introduce some new non-technical users and researchers to the Pharo
>>>> world, reproducible research, interactive documentation and modable
>>>> tools,
>>>> but we need to start in a place they know, for example its markup
>>>> language.
>>> I don't really see the benefit of pushing Markdown into Pharo at
>>> _this moment_ (there is PetitParser for some flavor of md though).
>>> If you want to use Markdown, then there is already fifteen billion
>>> of other tools outside.
>>>
>>> If you want deep integration with Pharo, then that takes a lot of
>>> effort, which is being invested into Pillar, because Pillar is
>>> aiming to be a much more powerful format --- maybe one day
>>> comparable to reStructuredText and to what Python does with rst/sphinx.
>>
>> Yes a lot of effort has already been put on Pillar and should continue
>> this effort.
>> If you want to use Markdown, you can use existing tools outside the
>> image.
>>
>>> Don't forget that markdown, although an excellent markup for what it
>>> knows, is also very simplistic.
>>> So if you want to use Markdown for PhD, then you are actually not
>>> using markdown, but most likely pandoc (or some richer syntax, such
>>> as scholarly markdown)... and support for either is another order of
>>> magnitude more complex.
>>>
>>> Bottom line(s):
>>>          * there's a continuous investment into improvement and deep
>>> integration of Pillar
>>>          * not enough resources to go around and implement any notation
>>>          * Markdown is too simplistic for any advanced writing (and
>>> yes, I used it to write papers and my thesis, but it also includes
>>> pandoc and many make/bash/ruby scripts to hack around)
>> Markdown is not a good idea for thesis, but org-mode+org-babel is
>> quite good for papers. You might have a look to
>> Scimax that is based on these tools:
>> http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu/scimax
>>
>
>
>

> I do not get how you can write a PhD in a system that does not support
>
>     - footnote
>
>     - citation
>
>     - figure reference.
>
> Pillar supports all that.
>

>
>> I wouldn't image that giving syntax highlighting support for markdown
>> in Pharo could be that hard, but I can write the thesis without it,
>> using just black text anywhere. Anyway having syntax support for
>> another languages is something that is being done for software
>> analysis, so, maybe at some point I can just try to learn how is
>> being done with Petit Parser o Smacc and see if I can help to create
>> a more markdown friendly environment in Pharo.
> I do not see the point
> I do not get why after all the efforts we are doing around Pillar and
> the proof that we can use it for making so great
> output people want markdown. Sorry but do not expect us to do anything
> in that direction.
>

> On Sep 6, 2016, at 4:56 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2016-08-29 21:41 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:
> Hi,
>
> I updated the Pillar support in GTInspector. Some of the extensions already exist in the default Pillar #development version. If you want to play with the full support, you can load it like this:
>
> Gofer new
> smalltalkhubUser: 'Moose' project: 'PetitParser';
> package: 'PetitAnalyzer';
> package: 'PetitIndent';
> package: 'PetitIslands';
> smalltalkhubUser: 'Moose' project: 'GToolkit';
> package: 'GT-InspectorExtensions-Pillar';
> load
>
> Then you can just inspect a book folder and you get this:
>
> <inspector-pillar.png>
>
> I did not integrate this in the main Pillar yet because this is an older implementation based on a limited island parser. As now Pillar has a full parser based on PetitParser, the next step is to move the highlighting logic to use this parser instead of the island parser. From my measurements, the speed of the two parsers is about the same, so from a user perspective there will be not much changes.
>
> It pains me that we are editing Pillar in outside tools, and now we should no longer have to do that. Of course, this is not the most ideal tool support for Pillar but I think it is a reasonable start.
>
> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
> nice!
>
> I just played a bit with the code to apply larger different font sizes for the headings and
> use the code styler for inlined code ("==").
>
> Maybe we should use a different code styler or add a way to instruct the styler to ignore unknown classes or uknown selectors :)
>
>  
>
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
> www.feenk.com
>
> "Problem solving should be focused on describing
> the problem in a way that makes the solution obvious."
>
>
>
>
>
>
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