big ui decisions
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Thanks for your help so far.
Now that I've had a chance to get my feet wet, start an eval of VW, watch Peter Fisk's progress, etc. I've hit a scary point. To go the distance, my app needs the maturity and capacity of Squeak/Pharo/VW(?). And, near- and long-term, it needs an elegant, cogent, captivating, intelligent, engaging, interactive front end. I've considered doing it in Flash or Silverlight or AIR (fat client) or straight JavaScript - though splitting the tiers and forgetting the backend seems like a lot of deferred pain. I know I have to worry about deployment. I am. I'd rather do it through the browser. And, even though DabbleDB and others are some of the coolest apps ever, I don't see Seaside cutting the front-end mustard (at least the way I understand things at this point). I sure wish there was a lightening-fast, browser-based, morphic-3-supporting VM so I could run ST on both tiers. A sexy, Smalltalk Lively-Kernel. I'm still trying to get Clamato to work. So, in your professional, experienced opinions, can I get a front end on Pharo (either in-image via Rome/Athens or some cooler-than-I've-seen, through-the-browser front end)? With all due respect to the Founding Fathers, I can't do eToys. Should I just do the whole client tier in in JS for the prototype and then hook to Seaside later? Any thoughts would be deeply appreciated. Thanks, Chip |
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On Dec 22, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Chip Nowacek wrote: > > Thanks for your help so far. > > Now that I've had a chance to get my feet wet, start an eval of VW, watch > Peter Fisk's progress, etc. I've hit a scary point. To go the distance, my > app needs the maturity and capacity of Squeak/Pharo/VW(?). And, near- and > long-term, it needs an elegant, cogent, captivating, intelligent, engaging, > interactive front end. I've considered doing it in Flash or Silverlight or > AIR (fat client) or straight JavaScript - though splitting the tiers and > forgetting the backend seems like a lot of deferred pain. I know I have to > worry about deployment. I am. I'd rather do it through the browser. And, > even though DabbleDB and others are some of the coolest apps ever, I don't > see Seaside cutting the front-end mustard (at least the way I understand > things at this point). what is specific about your app? > I sure wish there was a lightening-fast, > browser-based, morphic-3-supporting VM so I could run ST on both tiers. A > sexy, Smalltalk Lively-Kernel. I'm still trying to get Clamato to work. > > So, in your professional, experienced opinions, can I get a front end on > Pharo (either in-image via Rome/Athens or some cooler-than-I've-seen, > through-the-browser front end)? it depends what you need. Our plans with igor are to produce a nice API to access Cairo and openVG but this will not happen before 3-4 months. > With all due respect to the Founding > Fathers, I can't do eToys. Should I just do the whole client tier in in JS > for the prototype and then hook to Seaside later? did you see nextPlan? Because they generate svg too? > > Any thoughts would be deeply appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Chip > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/big-ui-decisions-tp3160359p3160359.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > |
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In reply to this post by Chip Nowacek
Hi Chip,
For really cool web browser based apps watch also Iliad [1] and Aida/Web [2], we both have a big plans on richer client-side web apps, also standalone and offline, that is, they can work without a connection to the web server. And there are tools which package such an app actually completely standalone, for installation on mobile devices, for now. See for instance a PhoneGap [3] which wrap web applications inside a native application, as described in O'Reilly book [4]. This approach could be extended to any desktop too. To conclude, with our web technology we can actually "generate" standalone desktop apps, by using just HTML5, CSS and JavaScript, all generated from Smalltalk only! Best regards Janko [1] Iliad http://www.iliadproject.org [2] Aida/Web http://www.aidaweb.si [3] PhoneGap http://www.nitobi.com/products/phonegap [4] Building Android Apps HTML, CSS and JavaScript, O'Reilly 2010 On 22. 12. 2010 10:46, Chip Nowacek wrote: > > Thanks for your help so far. > > Now that I've had a chance to get my feet wet, start an eval of VW, watch > Peter Fisk's progress, etc. I've hit a scary point. To go the distance, my > app needs the maturity and capacity of Squeak/Pharo/VW(?). And, near- and > long-term, it needs an elegant, cogent, captivating, intelligent, engaging, > interactive front end. I've considered doing it in Flash or Silverlight or > AIR (fat client) or straight JavaScript - though splitting the tiers and > forgetting the backend seems like a lot of deferred pain. I know I have to > worry about deployment. I am. I'd rather do it through the browser. And, > even though DabbleDB and others are some of the coolest apps ever, I don't > see Seaside cutting the front-end mustard (at least the way I understand > things at this point). I sure wish there was a lightening-fast, > browser-based, morphic-3-supporting VM so I could run ST on both tiers. A > sexy, Smalltalk Lively-Kernel. I'm still trying to get Clamato to work. > > So, in your professional, experienced opinions, can I get a front end on > Pharo (either in-image via Rome/Athens or some cooler-than-I've-seen, > through-the-browser front end)? With all due respect to the Founding > Fathers, I can't do eToys. Should I just do the whole client tier in in JS > for the prototype and then hook to Seaside later? > > Any thoughts would be deeply appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Chip -- Janko Mivšek Svetovalec za informatiko Eranova d.o.o. Ljubljana, Slovenija www.eranova.si tel: 01 514 22 55 faks: 01 514 22 56 gsm: 031 674 565 |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
On 22 December 2010 11:01, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Dec 22, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Chip Nowacek wrote: > >> >> Thanks for your help so far. >> >> Now that I've had a chance to get my feet wet, start an eval of VW, watch >> Peter Fisk's progress, etc. I've hit a scary point. To go the distance, my >> app needs the maturity and capacity of Squeak/Pharo/VW(?). And, near- and >> long-term, it needs an elegant, cogent, captivating, intelligent, engaging, >> interactive front end. I've considered doing it in Flash or Silverlight or >> AIR (fat client) or straight JavaScript - though splitting the tiers and >> forgetting the backend seems like a lot of deferred pain. I know I have to >> worry about deployment. I am. I'd rather do it through the browser. And, >> even though DabbleDB and others are some of the coolest apps ever, I don't >> see Seaside cutting the front-end mustard (at least the way I understand >> things at this point). > > what is specific about your app? > >> I sure wish there was a lightening-fast, >> browser-based, morphic-3-supporting VM so I could run ST on both tiers. A >> sexy, Smalltalk Lively-Kernel. I'm still trying to get Clamato to work. >> >> So, in your professional, experienced opinions, can I get a front end on >> Pharo (either in-image via Rome/Athens or some cooler-than-I've-seen, >> through-the-browser front end)? > > it depends what you need. > Our plans with igor are to produce a nice API to access Cairo and openVG but this will not happen before 3-4 months. > yes, don't leave from the radar, because eventually i want to make modern, nice & sexy UI, using vector-graphics engine backend. Sure thing, if you wanna help in this regard - you're welcome, because this field is VAST and there is enough work for 10 people, not just me alone. :) >> With all due respect to the Founding >> Fathers, I can't do eToys. Should I just do the whole client tier in in JS >> for the prototype and then hook to Seaside later? > > did you see nextPlan? > Because they generate svg too? > >> >> Any thoughts would be deeply appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Chip >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/big-ui-decisions-tp3160359p3160359.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
>what is specific about your app? My app will be asking people to divulge very personal information and engage in an unusual level of introspection. The environment must engender trust and confidence in ineffable ways. They have to feel safe - "feel" being the central word. I have to create such an environment. >it depends what you need. >Our plans with igor are to produce a nice API to access Cairo and openVG but this will not happen before >3-4 months. That may do it. Maybe, out of pure necessity, I'll be playing a role in moving that effort forward. >did you see nextPlan? >Because they generate svg too? I haven't seen it yet. I will search it/them out. Thanks. |
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In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
>yes, don't leave from the radar, because eventually i want to make >modern, nice & sexy UI, using vector-graphics engine backend. >Sure thing, if you wanna help in this regard - you're welcome, because >this field is VAST and there is enough work for 10 people, >not just me alone. :) I am grateful you are willing to tackle the work. It will make all the difference. I have a few more questions to ask and, hopefully, responses to contemplate before I know whether or not I can fall in beside you and set to the work. Thanks for the invitation. |
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by Chip Nowacek
It was very impressive. The video of the ESUG presentation is at http://esug2010.objectfusion.fr/ Sean
Cheers,
Sean |
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by Chip Nowacek
I was just wishing for this yesterday! Awesome to know there's interest and work being done here. Sean
Cheers,
Sean |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
I've done more poking around in Seaside. For now, I think being able to push out raw JavaScript will do what I need short-term. Maybe I can lend Igor a hand. I'm not very experienced. I'll do what I can. Igor?
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In reply to this post by Chip Nowacek
On 22.12.2010 10:46, Chip Nowacek wrote:
> > Thanks for your help so far. > > Now that I've had a chance to get my feet wet, start an eval of VW, watch > Peter Fisk's progress, etc. I've hit a scary point. To go the distance, my > app needs the maturity and capacity of Squeak/Pharo/VW(?). And, near- and > long-term, it needs an elegant, cogent, captivating, intelligent, engaging, > interactive front end. I've considered doing it in Flash or Silverlight or > AIR (fat client) or straight JavaScript - though splitting the tiers and > forgetting the backend seems like a lot of deferred pain. I know I have to > worry about deployment. I am. I'd rather do it through the browser. And, > even though DabbleDB and others are some of the coolest apps ever, I don't > see Seaside cutting the front-end mustard (at least the way I understand > things at this point). How so? Seaside generates HTML like every other web framework. You can make your app look like every website / web application you want. Cheers Philippe |
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Yeah - I'm learning more about Seaside's capabilities as I continue to play with it. It is a very powerful tool. It's the interactive animation of non-standard components that has me puzzled at this point. I have to learn more. Maybe the drag-n-drop facilities? I've got to get this thing working something like a graphical introduction to the model (like a wizard) and Thinkmap (eg. http://www.visualthesaurus.com/ - look up "run") - and more compelling graphically, hopefully Java-less, and less than $30,000.
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There is support for drag and drop since years.
Have a look at seaside hosting projects with Javascript support (I do not remember the web page) Stef On Dec 27, 2010, at 11:32 PM, Chip Nowacek wrote: > > Yeah - I'm learning more about Seaside's capabilities as I continue to play > with it. It is a very powerful tool. It's the interactive animation of > non-standard components that has me puzzled at this point. I have to learn > more. Maybe the drag-n-drop facilities? I've got to get this thing working > something like Thinkmap (eg. http://www.visualthesaurus.com/) - and more > compelling graphically, hopefully Java-less, and less than $30,000. > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/big-ui-decisions-tp3160359p3165552.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > |
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i would have another look at the seaside integration with jquery and
scriptaculous.. those are very easy to code, and very powerful.. -- ---- peace, sergio photographer, journalist, visionary http://www.ThoseOptimizeGuys.com http://www.CodingForHire.com http://www.coffee-black.com http://www.painlessfrugality.com http://www.twitter.com/sergio_101 http://www.facebook.com/sergio101 |
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