call for help: answer on HN :)

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call for help: answer on HN :)

EstebanLM
Hi,

yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has been some negative posts there. 
I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know who they are… sames as always) are spreading. 


(this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point of view)

cheers!
Esteban
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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Stephane Ducasse-3
I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is
too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has
> been some negative posts there.
> I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help
> to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know
> who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>
> here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>
> (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this
> kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point of view)
>
> cheers!
> Esteban

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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

SergeStinckwich
I guess the more Pharo will be known, the more we will have FUD.
I think we should ignore them most of the time.

What is problematic here is personal attack with anonymous alias ...

Regards

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 4:26 PM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is
too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has
> been some negative posts there.
> I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help
> to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know
> who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>
> here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>
> (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this
> kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point of view)
>
> cheers!
> Esteban




--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (SU/IRD/UY1)
"Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute."
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Aliaksei Syrel
In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3
Hi

Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo:

There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when tiny “minor” issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.

Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language. Some people even give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats...

All the best
Alex

On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is
too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there has
> been some negative posts there.
> I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and help
> to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we know
> who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>
> here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>
> (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see this
> kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point of view)
>
> cheers!
> Esteban

--
Cheers,
Alex
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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

SergeStinckwich


On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 4:48 PM, Aliaksei Syrel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo:

There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when tiny “minor” issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.


​Yes minor details kill most of the time the experience of new learners.
For more experienced people like us, we know how to avoid them :-)

Maybe specific sprints should be done to take care of some of them ?

​Regards,​
--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (SU/IRD/UY1)
"Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute."
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Stephane Ducasse-3
In reply to this post by Aliaksei Syrel
You see
I told them NOT to use github.
I told them that Bloc was alpha. They got a large list of topics and
could have picked another one.
Now of course we should improve and they too.

So personally I do not care.

Stef


On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 5:48 PM, Aliaksei Syrel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo:
> https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
>
> There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when
> tiny “minor” issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
>
> Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language. Some people even give
> dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats...
>
> All the best
> Alex
>
> On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is
>> too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
>> Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC and there
>> > has
>> > been some negative posts there.
>> > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there and
>> > help
>> > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD someones (we
>> > know
>> > who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>> >
>> > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>> >
>> > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely see
>> > this
>> > kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point of view)
>> >
>> > cheers!
>> > Esteban
>>
> --
> Cheers,
> Alex

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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Thierry Goubier
In reply to this post by Aliaksei Syrel
Hi Alex,

Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
> Hi
>
> Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo:
> https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
>
> There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when
> tiny “minor” issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.

Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.

I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e. a Cmd-.
that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help development so
significantly and allow more experiments.

I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as possible
from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too fast to
be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking forward to
building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.

One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code releases
and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable
releases may change core APIs.

> Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.

That I can agree with :)

> Some people even
> give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats...
>
> All the best
> Alex

Regards,

Thierry

(*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly limiting.

> On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is
>     too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
>     Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
>
>     On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>      > Hi,
>      >
>      > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC
>     and there has
>      > been some negative posts there.
>      > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there
>     and help
>      > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD
>     someones (we know
>      > who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>      >
>      > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>      >
>      > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely
>     see this
>      > kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point of view)
>      >
>      > cheers!
>      > Esteban
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Alex


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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

philippeback
interruptible.. yes!

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Alex,

Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
> Hi
>
> Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo:
> https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
>
> There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when
> tiny “minor” issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.

Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.

I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e. a Cmd-.
that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help development so
significantly and allow more experiments.

I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as possible
from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too fast to
be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking forward to
building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.

One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code releases
and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable
releases may change core APIs.

> Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.

That I can agree with :)

> Some people even
> give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats...
>
> All the best
> Alex

Regards,

Thierry

(*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly limiting.

> On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is
>     too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
>     Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
>
>     On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>      > Hi,
>      >
>      > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC
>     and there has
>      > been some negative posts there.
>      > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there
>     and help
>      > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD
>     someones (we know
>      > who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>      >
>      > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>      >
>      > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely
>     see this
>      > kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point of view)
>      >
>      > cheers!
>      > Esteban
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Alex


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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

kilon.alios
yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people started abandoning the community and the community essentially died. 

I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people dont even listen. 

Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is more powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality. 

Don't feed the troll. 

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
interruptible.. yes!

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Alex,

Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
> Hi
>
> Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo:
> https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
>
> There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a pity when
> tiny “minor” issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.

Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.

I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e. a Cmd-.
that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help development so
significantly and allow more experiments.

I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as possible
from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too fast to
be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking forward to
building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.

One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code releases
and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable
releases may change core APIs.

> Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.

That I can agree with :)

> Some people even
> give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians heal cats...
>
> All the best
> Alex

Regards,

Thierry

(*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly limiting.

> On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a pseudo. This is
>     too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
>     Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
>
>     On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>      > Hi,
>      >
>      > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the Pharo MOOC
>     and there has
>      > been some negative posts there.
>      > I would like to call people who can have the time to answer there
>     and help
>      > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD
>     someones (we know
>      > who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>      >
>      > here the link : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>      >
>      > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo will likely
>     see this
>      > kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point of view)
>      >
>      > cheers!
>      > Esteban
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Alex


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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Esteban A. Maringolo
Even if he is a troll, he pointed out many things that aren't given
priority because we're building "next great stuff" and with the limited
resource you either stop to world to fix what's already made or you move
forward.

And IMO it is true that the next great stuff is being built, a better
paradigm, moldability, and whatnot, but that means that, for a while,
tools, and the image itself won't be "rock solid", and since most things
are not backportable or maintained (there are no resources to have LTS
versions), it is hard to define what's the minimum rock-solid core on
which to build upon.

E.g. The infinite walkback error pointed in this screenshot
https://i.imgur.com/7jiKIhd.png still chases me from time to time, and I
remember having reported it a long time ago, and it was considered fixed.

So I wouldn't feed the troll, but I woudln't kill the messenger either.

Regards,


On 07/04/2018 14:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:

> yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its
> the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been
> attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off
> steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only
> way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience
> where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the
> mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have
> a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people
> started abandoning the community and the community essentially died. 
>
> I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people
> dont even listen. 
>
> Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its
> pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is more
> powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality. 
>
> Don't feed the troll. 
>
> On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]> <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     interruptible.. yes!
>
>     On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Hi Alex,
>
>         Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
>         > Hi
>         >
>         > Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo:
>         > https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
>         >
>         > There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a
>         pity when
>         > tiny “minor” issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
>
>         Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
>
>         I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e.
>         a Cmd-.
>         that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help
>         development so
>         significantly and allow more experiments.
>
>         I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as
>         possible
>         from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too
>         fast to
>         be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking
>         forward to
>         building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.
>
>         One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code
>         releases
>         and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable
>         releases may change core APIs.
>
>         > Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
>
>         That I can agree with :)
>
>         > Some people even
>         > give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians
>         heal cats...
>         >
>         > All the best
>         > Alex
>
>         Regards,
>
>         Thierry
>
>         (*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly
>         limiting.
>
>         > On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse
>         <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         > <mailto:[hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>         >
>         >     I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a
>         pseudo. This is
>         >     too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
>         >     Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
>         >
>         >     On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano
>         >     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>         >      > Hi,
>         >      >
>         >      > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the
>         Pharo MOOC
>         >     and there has
>         >      > been some negative posts there.
>         >      > I would like to call people who can have the time to
>         answer there
>         >     and help
>         >      > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD
>         >     someones (we know
>         >      > who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>         >      >
>         >      > here the link :
>         https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>         >      >
>         >      > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo
>         will likely
>         >     see this
>         >      > kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point
>         of view)
>         >      >
>         >      > cheers!
>         >      > Esteban
>         >
>         > --
>         > Cheers,
>         > Alex
>
>

--
Esteban A. Maringolo

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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Stephane Ducasse-3
Yes me too and this is on our todo. Because I hate it.
Now as usual the more we get help the faster we are. For example Pablo
rewrote the FT logic to use FFI instead of the unstable plugin.
And when he is doing this he is not doing something else.
Same of streams and many other.

Stef

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 2:18 AM, Esteban A. Maringolo
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Even if he is a troll, he pointed out many things that aren't given
> priority because we're building "next great stuff" and with the limited
> resource you either stop to world to fix what's already made or you move
> forward.
>
> And IMO it is true that the next great stuff is being built, a better
> paradigm, moldability, and whatnot, but that means that, for a while,
> tools, and the image itself won't be "rock solid", and since most things
> are not backportable or maintained (there are no resources to have LTS
> versions), it is hard to define what's the minimum rock-solid core on
> which to build upon.
>
> E.g. The infinite walkback error pointed in this screenshot
> https://i.imgur.com/7jiKIhd.png still chases me from time to time, and I
> remember having reported it a long time ago, and it was considered fixed.
>
> So I wouldn't feed the troll, but I woudln't kill the messenger either.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> On 07/04/2018 14:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>> yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its
>> the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been
>> attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off
>> steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only
>> way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience
>> where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the
>> mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have
>> a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people
>> started abandoning the community and the community essentially died.
>>
>> I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people
>> dont even listen.
>>
>> Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its
>> pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is more
>> powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality.
>>
>> Don't feed the troll.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]> <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>     interruptible.. yes!
>>
>>     On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier
>>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>         Hi Alex,
>>
>>         Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
>>         > Hi
>>         >
>>         > Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo:
>>         > https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
>>         >
>>         > There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a
>>         pity when
>>         > tiny “minor” issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
>>
>>         Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
>>
>>         I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e.
>>         a Cmd-.
>>         that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help
>>         development so
>>         significantly and allow more experiments.
>>
>>         I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as
>>         possible
>>         from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too
>>         fast to
>>         be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking
>>         forward to
>>         building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.
>>
>>         One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code
>>         releases
>>         and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable
>>         releases may change core APIs.
>>
>>         > Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
>>
>>         That I can agree with :)
>>
>>         > Some people even
>>         > give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians
>>         heal cats...
>>         >
>>         > All the best
>>         > Alex
>>
>>         Regards,
>>
>>         Thierry
>>
>>         (*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly
>>         limiting.
>>
>>         > On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse
>>         <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>         > <mailto:[hidden email]
>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>>         >
>>         >     I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a
>>         pseudo. This is
>>         >     too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
>>         >     Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
>>         >
>>         >     On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano
>>         >     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>         <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>>         >      > Hi,
>>         >      >
>>         >      > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the
>>         Pharo MOOC
>>         >     and there has
>>         >      > been some negative posts there.
>>         >      > I would like to call people who can have the time to
>>         answer there
>>         >     and help
>>         >      > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD
>>         >     someones (we know
>>         >      > who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>>         >      >
>>         >      > here the link :
>>         https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>>         >      >
>>         >      > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo
>>         will likely
>>         >     see this
>>         >      > kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point
>>         of view)
>>         >      >
>>         >      > cheers!
>>         >      > Esteban
>>         >
>>         > --
>>         > Cheers,
>>         > Alex
>>
>>
>
> --
> Esteban A. Maringolo
>

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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Thierry Goubier
In reply to this post by Esteban A. Maringolo
2018-04-09 2:18 GMT+02:00 Esteban A. Maringolo <[hidden email]>:

> Even if he is a troll, he pointed out many things that aren't given
> priority because we're building "next great stuff" and with the limited
> resource you either stop to world to fix what's already made or you move
> forward.
>
> And IMO it is true that the next great stuff is being built, a better
> paradigm, moldability, and whatnot, but that means that, for a while,
> tools, and the image itself won't be "rock solid", and since most things
> are not backportable or maintained (there are no resources to have LTS
> versions), it is hard to define what's the minimum rock-solid core on
> which to build upon.

I wonder if some things could be solved by taking a slightly different path...

- Non rock solid base could be cared for by debugging that allways work

- Not threaded image could be solved by "image sharing between processes"

- Multiple host windows would mean forking the image

Imagine a world where:
- The smalltalk debugger can remote debug via gdb(*) a locked image
(or one where you have crashed the world because you played with core
graphics stuff)...
- The smalltalk debugger can inject new code into a remote image via
gdb again (**).
- Two images can easily share objects with almost zero overhead(***)
- One image can easily keeps its code in sync with another one (object
duplication between images)

I know of TelePharo, and, after looking at the underlying
implementation, it's not good enough. The core undebuggability of the
platform is not solved (at all).

The undebuggability of the platform is a significant barrier. I worked
on the SmaCC GT debugger because my students were regularly locking
their images with it (usually something as simple as stepping over the
end of the computation) so I've added many, many guards, to try to
protect from that; I know think a strong limitation of exploring new
debug modes is mainly linked to the ease of locking your image with
it.

Regards,

Thierry

(*) gdb over serial talking to a boot eeprom equivalent, mapped with a
remapping of step to smalltalk instructions (like in a true debugger)
(**) So that, from that smalltalk over gdb debugger, you can fix,
compile and proceed
(***) And so, no story of running a "determine the right object graph
with more smalltalk code... ", that is too slow

> E.g. The infinite walkback error pointed in this screenshot
> https://i.imgur.com/7jiKIhd.png still chases me from time to time, and I
> remember having reported it a long time ago, and it was considered fixed.
>
> So I wouldn't feed the troll, but I woudln't kill the messenger either.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> On 07/04/2018 14:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>> yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its
>> the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been
>> attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off
>> steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only
>> way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience
>> where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the
>> mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have
>> a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people
>> started abandoning the community and the community essentially died.
>>
>> I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people
>> dont even listen.
>>
>> Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its
>> pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is more
>> powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality.
>>
>> Don't feed the troll.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]> <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>     interruptible.. yes!
>>
>>     On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier
>>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>         Hi Alex,
>>
>>         Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
>>         > Hi
>>         >
>>         > Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo:
>>         > https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
>>         >
>>         > There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a
>>         pity when
>>         > tiny “minor” issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
>>
>>         Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
>>
>>         I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e.
>>         a Cmd-.
>>         that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help
>>         development so
>>         significantly and allow more experiments.
>>
>>         I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as
>>         possible
>>         from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too
>>         fast to
>>         be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking
>>         forward to
>>         building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.
>>
>>         One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code
>>         releases
>>         and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable
>>         releases may change core APIs.
>>
>>         > Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
>>
>>         That I can agree with :)
>>
>>         > Some people even
>>         > give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians
>>         heal cats...
>>         >
>>         > All the best
>>         > Alex
>>
>>         Regards,
>>
>>         Thierry
>>
>>         (*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly
>>         limiting.
>>
>>         > On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse
>>         <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>         > <mailto:[hidden email]
>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>>         >
>>         >     I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a
>>         pseudo. This is
>>         >     too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
>>         >     Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
>>         >
>>         >     On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano
>>         >     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>         <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>>         >      > Hi,
>>         >      >
>>         >      > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the
>>         Pharo MOOC
>>         >     and there has
>>         >      > been some negative posts there.
>>         >      > I would like to call people who can have the time to
>>         answer there
>>         >     and help
>>         >      > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD
>>         >     someones (we know
>>         >      > who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>>         >      >
>>         >      > here the link :
>>         https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>>         >      >
>>         >      > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo
>>         will likely
>>         >     see this
>>         >      > kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point
>>         of view)
>>         >      >
>>         >      > cheers!
>>         >      > Esteban
>>         >
>>         > --
>>         > Cheers,
>>         > Alex
>>
>>
>
> --
> Esteban A. Maringolo
>

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|

Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Ben Coman


On 9 April 2018 at 14:50, Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]> wrote:
2018-04-09 2:18 GMT+02:00 Esteban A. Maringolo <[hidden email]>:
> Even if he is a troll, he pointed out many things that aren't given
> priority because we're building "next great stuff" and with the limited
> resource you either stop to world to fix what's already made or you move
> forward.
>
> And IMO it is true that the next great stuff is being built, a better
> paradigm, moldability, and whatnot, but that means that, for a while,
> tools, and the image itself won't be "rock solid", and since most things
> are not backportable or maintained (there are no resources to have LTS
> versions), it is hard to define what's the minimum rock-solid core on
> which to build upon.

I wonder if some things could be solved by taking a slightly different path...

- Non rock solid base could be cared for by debugging that allways work

- Not threaded image could be solved by "image sharing between processes"

Can you expand on this. I can't follow.
 

- Multiple host windows would mean forking the image

I presume your mean native fork(), rather than Smalltalk #fork.

cheers -ben 
 

Imagine a world where:
- The smalltalk debugger can remote debug via gdb(*) a locked image
(or one where you have crashed the world because you played with core
graphics stuff)...
- The smalltalk debugger can inject new code into a remote image via
gdb again (**).
- Two images can easily share objects with almost zero overhead(***)
- One image can easily keeps its code in sync with another one (object
duplication between images)

I know of TelePharo, and, after looking at the underlying
implementation, it's not good enough. The core undebuggability of the
platform is not solved (at all).

The undebuggability of the platform is a significant barrier. I worked
on the SmaCC GT debugger because my students were regularly locking
their images with it (usually something as simple as stepping over the
end of the computation) so I've added many, many guards, to try to
protect from that; I know think a strong limitation of exploring new
debug modes is mainly linked to the ease of locking your image with
it.

Regards,

Thierry

(*) gdb over serial talking to a boot eeprom equivalent, mapped with a
remapping of step to smalltalk instructions (like in a true debugger)
(**) So that, from that smalltalk over gdb debugger, you can fix,
compile and proceed
(***) And so, no story of running a "determine the right object graph
with more smalltalk code... ", that is too slow

> E.g. The infinite walkback error pointed in this screenshot
> https://i.imgur.com/7jiKIhd.png still chases me from time to time, and I
> remember having reported it a long time ago, and it was considered fixed.
>
> So I wouldn't feed the troll, but I woudln't kill the messenger either.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> On 07/04/2018 14:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>> yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its
>> the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been
>> attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off
>> steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only
>> way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience
>> where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the
>> mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have
>> a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people
>> started abandoning the community and the community essentially died.
>>
>> I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people
>> dont even listen.
>>
>> Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its
>> pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is more
>> powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality.
>>
>> Don't feed the troll.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]> <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>     interruptible.. yes!
>>
>>     On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier
>>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>         Hi Alex,
>>
>>         Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
>>         > Hi
>>         >
>>         > Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo:
>>         > https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
>>         >
>>         > There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is a
>>         pity when
>>         > tiny “minor” issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
>>
>>         Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
>>
>>         I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e.
>>         a Cmd-.
>>         that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help
>>         development so
>>         significantly and allow more experiments.
>>
>>         I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as
>>         possible
>>         from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far too
>>         fast to
>>         be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking
>>         forward to
>>         building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I rely on.
>>
>>         One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code
>>         releases
>>         and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even stable
>>         releases may change core APIs.
>>
>>         > Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
>>
>>         That I can agree with :)
>>
>>         > Some people even
>>         > give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how veterinarians
>>         heal cats...
>>         >
>>         > All the best
>>         > Alex
>>
>>         Regards,
>>
>>         Thierry
>>
>>         (*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly
>>         limiting.
>>
>>         > On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse
>>         <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>         > <mailto:[hidden email]
>>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>>         >
>>         >     I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a
>>         pseudo. This is
>>         >     too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
>>         >     Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real names.
>>         >
>>         >     On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano
>>         >     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>         <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>>         >      > Hi,
>>         >      >
>>         >      > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the
>>         Pharo MOOC
>>         >     and there has
>>         >      > been some negative posts there.
>>         >      > I would like to call people who can have the time to
>>         answer there
>>         >     and help
>>         >      > to explain better and also contribute to contest that FUD
>>         >     someones (we know
>>         >      > who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>>         >      >
>>         >      > here the link :
>>         https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>>         >      >
>>         >      > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo
>>         will likely
>>         >     see this
>>         >      > kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point
>>         of view)
>>         >      >
>>         >      > cheers!
>>         >      > Esteban
>>         >
>>         > --
>>         > Cheers,
>>         > Alex
>>
>>
>
> --
> Esteban A. Maringolo
>


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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Thierry Goubier
2018-04-09 15:28 GMT+02:00 Ben Coman <[hidden email]>:

>
>
> On 9 April 2018 at 14:50, Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> 2018-04-09 2:18 GMT+02:00 Esteban A. Maringolo <[hidden email]>:
>> > Even if he is a troll, he pointed out many things that aren't given
>> > priority because we're building "next great stuff" and with the limited
>> > resource you either stop to world to fix what's already made or you move
>> > forward.
>> >
>> > And IMO it is true that the next great stuff is being built, a better
>> > paradigm, moldability, and whatnot, but that means that, for a while,
>> > tools, and the image itself won't be "rock solid", and since most things
>> > are not backportable or maintained (there are no resources to have LTS
>> > versions), it is hard to define what's the minimum rock-solid core on
>> > which to build upon.
>>
>> I wonder if some things could be solved by taking a slightly different
>> path...
>>
>> - Non rock solid base could be cared for by debugging that allways work
>>
>> - Not threaded image could be solved by "image sharing between processes"
>
>
> Can you expand on this. I can't follow.

Have objects freely moving between images (or being duplicated between
images). Nothing really outlandish, just your standard either
distributed object stuff, or software distributed shared memory (image
segments could be the right abstraction).

A use case: main image with full tools (one window), linked image with
application-only code (one window), each time you compile a method in
the main image, linked image gets it because it track system announcer
changes.

>> - Multiple host windows would mean forking the image
>
>
> I presume your mean native fork(), rather than Smalltalk #fork.

Exactly.

Thierry

> cheers -ben
>
>>
>>
>> Imagine a world where:
>> - The smalltalk debugger can remote debug via gdb(*) a locked image
>> (or one where you have crashed the world because you played with core
>> graphics stuff)...
>> - The smalltalk debugger can inject new code into a remote image via
>> gdb again (**).
>> - Two images can easily share objects with almost zero overhead(***)
>> - One image can easily keeps its code in sync with another one (object
>> duplication between images)
>>
>> I know of TelePharo, and, after looking at the underlying
>> implementation, it's not good enough. The core undebuggability of the
>> platform is not solved (at all).
>>
>> The undebuggability of the platform is a significant barrier. I worked
>> on the SmaCC GT debugger because my students were regularly locking
>> their images with it (usually something as simple as stepping over the
>> end of the computation) so I've added many, many guards, to try to
>> protect from that; I know think a strong limitation of exploring new
>> debug modes is mainly linked to the ease of locking your image with
>> it.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Thierry
>>
>> (*) gdb over serial talking to a boot eeprom equivalent, mapped with a
>> remapping of step to smalltalk instructions (like in a true debugger)
>> (**) So that, from that smalltalk over gdb debugger, you can fix,
>> compile and proceed
>> (***) And so, no story of running a "determine the right object graph
>> with more smalltalk code... ", that is too slow
>>
>> > E.g. The infinite walkback error pointed in this screenshot
>> > https://i.imgur.com/7jiKIhd.png still chases me from time to time, and I
>> > remember having reported it a long time ago, and it was considered
>> > fixed.
>> >
>> > So I wouldn't feed the troll, but I woudln't kill the messenger either.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> >
>> > On 07/04/2018 14:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>> >> yeah the guy (martin whatever) is a troll, if I remember correctly its
>> >> the same dude we had on the reddit forum for Smalltalk that has been
>> >> attacking Pharo with pure lies. He is a typical troll that blows off
>> >> steam by annoying other people. I am with Stef with this one, the only
>> >> way to win against a troll is silence. I had a very recent experience
>> >> where the person in charge underestimated a troll, he overflown the
>> >> mailing list with negative, many people took the bait and tried to have
>> >> a civilized discussions with him, he drag it one for month until people
>> >> started abandoning the community and the community essentially died.
>> >>
>> >> I adviced them not to feed the troll but as in many other cases, people
>> >> dont even listen.
>> >>
>> >> Pharo is far from perfect, but this is not a logical discussion , its
>> >> pure troll tactic. Do not underestimate the power of a troll, it is
>> >> more
>> >> powerful than you can imagine and feed on politeness and rationality.
>> >>
>> >> Don't feed the troll.
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 8:13 PM [hidden email]
>> >> <mailto:[hidden email]> <[hidden email]
>> >> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>     interruptible.. yes!
>> >>
>> >>     On Sat, Apr 7, 2018, 19:10 Thierry Goubier
>> >>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>         Hi Alex,
>> >>
>> >>         Le 07/04/2018 à 17:48, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
>> >>         > Hi
>> >>         >
>> >>         > Here is a link to a report about their experience with Pharo:
>> >>         > https://gitlab.fit.cvut.cz/taibrmar/sokoban-using-bloc
>> >>         >
>> >>         > There definitely exist things that should be improved. It is
>> >> a
>> >>         pity when
>> >>         > tiny “minor” issues leave such an unpleasant aftertaste.
>> >>
>> >>         Some of them are, sadly, quite unacceptable, IMHO.
>> >>
>> >>         I would really dream of a stable, correctly interruptible (i.e.
>> >>         a Cmd-.
>> >>         that really works), limited Pharo core. That would help
>> >>         development so
>> >>         significantly and allow more experiments.
>> >>
>> >>         I solve that by making stuff that distance itself as much as
>> >>         possible
>> >>         from a lot of the Pharo stuff that evolves far too much, far
>> >> too
>> >>         fast to
>> >>         be relied upon (widgets, graphics, editors), and I'm looking
>> >>         forward to
>> >>         building a limited(*) image with just and only the things I
>> >> rely on.
>> >>
>> >>         One of the thing I need is a CI that triggers both on my code
>> >>         releases
>> >>         and any Pharo update (including the stable ones) since even
>> >> stable
>> >>         releases may change core APIs.
>> >>
>> >>         > Anyway, there are lovers and haters of every language.
>> >>
>> >>         That I can agree with :)
>> >>
>> >>         > Some people even
>> >>         > give dislikes to videos on YouTube that show how
>> >> veterinarians
>> >>         heal cats...
>> >>         >
>> >>         > All the best
>> >>         > Alex
>> >>
>> >>         Regards,
>> >>
>> >>         Thierry
>> >>
>> >>         (*) I did try with the minimal image, and the tools are clearly
>> >>         limiting.
>> >>
>> >>         > On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 at 17:27, Stephane Ducasse
>> >>         <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >>         > <mailto:[hidden email]
>> >>         <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>> >>         >
>> >>         >     I tend to not care about people pissing on me via a
>> >>         pseudo. This is
>> >>         >     too easy and too microscopic to have any value.
>> >>         >     Thanks Philippe, Luke and Ben because you use your real
>> >> names.
>> >>         >
>> >>         >     On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Esteban Lorenzano
>> >>         >     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>> >>         <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>         >      > Hi,
>> >>         >      >
>> >>         >      > yesterday someone posted an article on HN about the
>> >>         Pharo MOOC
>> >>         >     and there has
>> >>         >      > been some negative posts there.
>> >>         >      > I would like to call people who can have the time to
>> >>         answer there
>> >>         >     and help
>> >>         >      > to explain better and also contribute to contest that
>> >> FUD
>> >>         >     someones (we know
>> >>         >      > who they are… sames as always) are spreading.
>> >>         >      >
>> >>         >      > here the link :
>> >>         https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16754872
>> >>         >      >
>> >>         >      > (this is not loosing time, people searching for Pharo
>> >>         will likely
>> >>         >     see this
>> >>         >      > kind of messages… at least we need to offer our point
>> >>         of view)
>> >>         >      >
>> >>         >      > cheers!
>> >>         >      > Esteban
>> >>         >
>> >>         > --
>> >>         > Cheers,
>> >>         > Alex
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Esteban A. Maringolo
>> >
>>
>

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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Sean P. DeNigris
Administrator
In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3
Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
> I told them NOT to use github.
> I told them that Bloc was alpha.

I wonder if we could make those points more explicit. Maybe a welcome window
disclaimer for Iceberg, since it's preinstalled?



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

Cheers,
Sean
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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Stephane Ducasse-3
It was a year ago and now Iceberg will become iceberg20.
And a year ago we could/should have used Pharo 50 but we used Pharo
6.1 and the 64bits bit us.
Let us focus on the future and yes we should improve.

Stef

On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 3:32 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
>> I told them NOT to use github.
>> I told them that Bloc was alpha.
>
> I wonder if we could make those points more explicit. Maybe a welcome window
> disclaimer for Iceberg, since it's preinstalled?
>
>
>
> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>

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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

philippeback


On Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 08:17 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
It was a year ago and now Iceberg will become iceberg20.
And a year ago we could/should have used Pharo 50 but we used Pharo
6.1 and the 64bits bit us.
Let us focus on the future and yes we should improve.

If there is something I learned from the Pharo community, this is this persistent will to make it movd forward and become better.

There have been failed experiments along the way but mostly a lot of positive things.

Who would have envisioned the Pharo of today in the beginning?

Despite criticism, people are trucking forward. That's great and definitely inspiring.

I am thankful for Pharo, trolls be damned.

Phil

Stef

On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 3:32 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
>> I told them NOT to use github.
>> I told them that Bloc was alpha.
>
> I wonder if we could make those points more explicit. Maybe a welcome window
> disclaimer for Iceberg, since it's preinstalled?
>
>
>
> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>

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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Sean P. DeNigris
Administrator
philippeback wrote
> Who would have envisioned the Pharo of today in the beginning?
> I am thankful for Pharo, trolls be damned.

Absolutely agree!!



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

Cheers,
Sean
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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Damien Pollet
There's a talk on the state of Clojure which I think resonates a lot with what we're experiencing in Pharo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YCkOo5Y4Oo
Spoiler: he concludes it's better to contribute and discuss issues than to be all sad and bitter :-)

On 10 April 2018 at 17:37, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
philippeback wrote
> Who would have envisioned the Pharo of today in the beginning?
> I am thankful for Pharo, trolls be damned.

Absolutely agree!!



--
Damien Pollet
type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet
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Re: call for help: answer on HN :)

Stephane Ducasse-3
Thanks Damien for the spoil :) I like when I can view that fast a video :)
I prefer coding.

On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 11:21 PM, Damien Pollet <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There's a talk on the state of Clojure which I think resonates a lot with
> what we're experiencing in Pharo:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YCkOo5Y4Oo
> Spoiler: he concludes it's better to contribute and discuss issues than to
> be all sad and bitter :-)
>
> On 10 April 2018 at 17:37, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> philippeback wrote
>> > Who would have envisioned the Pharo of today in the beginning?
>> > I am thankful for Pharo, trolls be damned.
>>
>> Absolutely agree!!
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Cheers,
>> Sean
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Damien Pollet
> type less, do more [ | ] http://people.untyped.org/damien.pollet