code reformatting angst

The main reason why I dont bother to use the reformatter is because of the
manner in which it  MOVES my comments !!

As a programmer of the old school I believe that comments IN CODE are
important and I place them where they are for a REASON !

I dont believe the code reformatter is so smart that it understand what my
comments are for :-)

So please don't shift them.

--
Cheers,
Brett

Hi Brett,

brett s hallett a écrit :
> The main reason why I dont bother to use the reformatter is because of the
> manner in which it  MOVES my comments !!

I agree that the way comments are moved when formatting is quite
strange. I still not have understood how the pattern work ...



-- Valentin Guerlesquin
-- [hidden email]
--
-- www.ventury-networks.com

Hi Valentin,
I dont think that there is a 'pattern' !,  more like "how can I confuse the
programmer the most" !!

And stuff up his/her nicely layed out comments at the same time :-)

Of course many "expert' STers believe that Smalltalk code is self documenting,
well that myth was destroyed many years ago in the dark ages of COBOL,
but "they" still cling to the concept. Bless 'em.




On Monday 18 February 2008 10:42:38 am Valentin Guerlesquin wrote:


--
Cheers,
Brett

brett s hallett wrote:
The parsers in VW treat comments as lesser citizens than program text,
this is something that could be fixed, probably at the expense of
parsing speed.



To all those making snide comments in this thread:  I challenge you to
create an algorithm that works in the general case, I think that is
fundamentally impossible.

As an exercise take some snippet of your code with comments and remove
all the line-breaks. Now reformat it with your algorithm and tell me if
you can make it work. Perhaps try it that the following code snippet:


"this is a method:" foo "with a lot of comments in specific places"

    "foo blasts a gargle and returns the result wrapped in a SEP field"
    "last change: 20070218 - RH"

    "some temps:" | a b "here is c, do we need it?" c | "thats the
ivars" "XXX CHECK ivar 'c'"

    a := self gargle blasted.
    b := SomeoneElsesProblem new "make this abstract please".
    c "XXX loose me" := b around: a.
    ^c



I agree that comment handling by the formatter can be improved, but
don't expect too much, the possibilities are fundamentally limited.

R
-

Reinout,
Please don't get offended by my comments on comments ! I intended it as  a
light hearted observation on Smalltalk generally.

On Monday 18 February 2008 8:22:12 pm Reinout Heeck wrote:
 I think your challange is a very interesting one especially since I dont have
a algorithm !.  Its all done by sight using layout techniques I have
developed for myself -- but hardly anything special and I keep it simple. The
general case is of course the most difficult. Apart from having my comments
stuffed up, I dont have any major problems with what happens now.
Although 'stacked "]]]]'s" on one line does !
 I just stopped using the reformatter to avoid getting annoyed. :-)
>
> As an exercise take some snippet of your code with comments and remove
> all the line-breaks.

Why ? I think line-breaks ( and blank lines) are a part of my commenting
technique to make code more readable. I know white space is often derided
as a waste of space (sic) ! -- which is interesting because code separation is
often the clearest way to highlight something of interest.

=============================================
                 tidied up by hand
=============================================
>  foo "this is a method: foo
>    with a lot of comments in specific places"
>
>     "foo blasts a gargle and returns the result wrapped in a SEP field"
>     "last change: 20070218 - RH"
>
> "some temps:"
>     | a b c |   "here is c, do we need it?"

> "thats the ivars" "XXX CHECK ivar 'c' "
>
>     a := self gargle blasted.
>     b := SomeoneElsesProblem new. "make this abstract please"
>     c := b around: a.   "XXX loose me"
>     ^c.
>
============================
Maybe Smalltalk needs a (new ?) definition of how comments can be placed,
rather than just 'free form" placement ??
>
> I agree that comment handling by the formatter can be improved, but
> don't expect too much, the possibilities are fundamentally limited.

>
> R
> -



--
Cheers,
Brett

brett s hallett wrote:
> Why ? I think line-breaks ( and blank lines) are a part of my commenting
> technique to make code more readable. I know white space is often derided
> as a waste of space (sic) ! -- which is interesting because code separation is
> often the clearest way to highlight something of interest.

Some parsers classify comments as just another kind of whitespace.

regardless the /only/ thing that formatters alter is whitespace which is
at odds with your desire to have whitespace not altered. This nicely
shows the fundamental 'impossibility' of doing reformatting while
preserving your layout.

> Maybe Smalltalk needs a (new ?) definition of how comments can be placed,
> rather than just 'free form" placement ??

Wise words, I don't know if we'll like it but it does create an
opportunity to get around the fundamental problem.


R
-

Inline comments are challenge for an efficient code scanner; they can be
identified by exception rather than syntax rule. Another approach is to
(conditionally) parse in two passes where one pass is used to extract
comments for node notations. If parse nodes can be annotated with inline
comments then the print strategy needs to know to explicitly look for
these comments. Or, print strategy modification could be reduced by
wrapping/decorating nodes with pre or post inline comments.

Comments are often used for a temporary change. I've found automatic
save reformatting most irritating when commenting out one cascaded
message send to insert another. The reformat sticks the comment at the
bottom; the message sequence is lost.

The solution I found was to unload the AsYouLikeIt package. I don't have
the time to make it right so I just make it go away. As implemented, the
feature should not be on by default.

Paul Baumann

-----Original Message-----
From: Reinout Heeck [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 7:02 AM
To: vwnc List
Subject: Re: code reformatting angst

brett s hallett wrote:
> Why ? I think line-breaks ( and blank lines) are a part of my
> commenting technique to make code more readable. I know white space is

> often derided as a waste of space (sic) ! -- which is interesting
> because code separation is often the clearest way to highlight
something of interest.

Some parsers classify comments as just another kind of whitespace.

regardless the /only/ thing that formatters alter is whitespace which is
at odds with your desire to have whitespace not altered. This nicely
shows the fundamental 'impossibility' of doing reformatting while
preserving your layout.

> Maybe Smalltalk needs a (new ?) definition of how comments can be
> placed, rather than just 'free form" placement ??

Wise words, I don't know if we'll like it but it does create an
opportunity to get around the fundamental problem.


R
-
 
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