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Francisco Garau-2

direct object manipulation

Hi - what packages can be used in latest Pharo to manipulate objects directly?

I am thinking something like MorphicWrappers, NakedObjects or Gaucho.

Cheers,

Francisco

Igor Stasenko

Re: direct object manipulation

On 22 March 2012 02:06, Francisco Garau <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi - what packages can be used in latest Pharo to manipulate objects
> directly?
>
Inspector.

> I am thinking something like MorphicWrappers, NakedObjects or Gaucho.
>
> Cheers,
> Francisco

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Fernando olivero-2

Re: direct object manipulation

In reply to this post by Francisco Garau-2

Gaucho is under active development, so sadly i cant release it yet.

The good news is that i'm using Athens[1], with a Cairo backend. so
the visual appearance is greatly improved from the previous version,
amongst other goodies such as a zoomable user interface.

I'm almost ready for a release...

Up to my knowledge, there's no other work related to Self and Morphic
Wrappers for Pharo.

Fernando

[1]http://computeradventures.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/athens-a-first-babysteps/

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:06 AM, Francisco Garau
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi - what packages can be used in latest Pharo to manipulate objects directly?
>
> I am thinking something like MorphicWrappers, NakedObjects or Gaucho.
>
> Cheers,
> Francisco

abergel

Re: direct object manipulation

This is really cool. We have planned to make Roassal (code name for Mondrian2) work with Cairo.

Cheers,
Alexandre

Le 22 mars 2012 à 08:55, Fernando Olivero <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Gaucho is under active development, so sadly i cant release it yet.
>
> The good news is that i'm using Athens[1], with a Cairo backend. so
> the visual appearance is greatly improved from the previous version,
> amongst other goodies such as a zoomable user interface.
>
> I'm almost ready for a release...
>
> Up to my knowledge, there's no other work related to Self and Morphic
> Wrappers for Pharo.
>
> Fernando
>
> [1]http://computeradventures.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/athens-a-first-babysteps/
>
> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:06 AM, Francisco Garau
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi - what packages can be used in latest Pharo to manipulate objects directly?
>>
>> I am thinking something like MorphicWrappers, NakedObjects or Gaucho.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Francisco
>

Igor Stasenko

Re: direct object manipulation

On 23 March 2012 18:42, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is really cool. We have planned to make Roassal (code name for Mondrian2) work with Cairo.
>

yes.. we adding last bells and whistles to Athens, with Fernando.
There's some parts missing, but you already can try it out.

Gofer it 'SqS/Athens'
load: 'ConfigurationOfAthens'

ConfigurationOfAthens project version: '0.1.3' load

To run with cairo, you will need NB-enabled VM which is here:
https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/NativeBoost/job/NB-Cog-Mac-Cocoa/

> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
>
>
> Le 22 mars 2012 à 08:55, Fernando Olivero <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> Gaucho is under active development, so sadly i cant release it yet.
>>
>> The good news is that i'm using Athens[1], with a Cairo backend. so
>> the visual appearance is greatly improved from the previous version,
>> amongst other goodies such as a zoomable user interface.
>>
>> I'm almost ready for a release...
>>
>> Up to my knowledge, there's no other work related to Self and Morphic
>> Wrappers for Pharo.
>>
>> Fernando
>>
>> [1]http://computeradventures.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/athens-a-first-babysteps/
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:06 AM, Francisco Garau
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi - what packages can be used in latest Pharo to manipulate objects directly?
>>>
>>> I am thinking something like MorphicWrappers, NakedObjects or Gaucho.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Francisco
>>
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Stan Shepherd

Re: direct object manipulation

In reply to this post by Francisco Garau-2

Hi Francisco, another possibility is the Scaffolding port by Yanni Chui - see thread
http://forum.world.st/Magritte-import-an-existing-project-td1588263.html#a1599430

Video of Gerhard Obermann's port to Gemstone here:
http://vimeo.com/2231019

Cheers, ...Stan

abergel

Re: direct object manipulation

In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

Hi Igor,

I tried the version 0.1.3 on OSX, using the VM you suggested, in a 1.4 image (the one used by Moose).

AthensCairoSurfaceExamples example1. complains that the function is not available. The error has been raised by NBFFICallout.
Is there something obvious I am missing?

Cheers,
Alexandre

On 22 Mar 2012, at 14:01, Igor Stasenko wrote:

> On 23 March 2012 18:42, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This is really cool. We have planned to make Roassal (code name for Mondrian2) work with Cairo.
>>
>
> yes.. we adding last bells and whistles to Athens, with Fernando.
> There's some parts missing, but you already can try it out.
>
> Gofer it 'SqS/Athens'
> load: 'ConfigurationOfAthens'
>
> ConfigurationOfAthens project version: '0.1.3' load
>
> To run with cairo, you will need NB-enabled VM which is here:
> https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/NativeBoost/job/NB-Cog-Mac-Cocoa/
>
>
>> Cheers,
>> Alexandre
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 22 mars 2012 à 08:55, Fernando Olivero <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>
>>> Gaucho is under active development, so sadly i cant release it yet.
>>>
>>> The good news is that i'm using Athens[1], with a Cairo backend. so
>>> the visual appearance is greatly improved from the previous version,
>>> amongst other goodies such as a zoomable user interface.
>>>
>>> I'm almost ready for a release...
>>>
>>> Up to my knowledge, there's no other work related to Self and Morphic
>>> Wrappers for Pharo.
>>>
>>> Fernando
>>>
>>> [1]http://computeradventures.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/athens-a-first-babysteps/
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:06 AM, Francisco Garau
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Hi - what packages can be used in latest Pharo to manipulate objects directly?
>>>>
>>>> I am thinking something like MorphicWrappers, NakedObjects or Gaucho.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Francisco
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Igor Stasenko

Re: direct object manipulation

On 29 March 2012 14:53, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Igor,
>
> I tried the version 0.1.3 on OSX, using the VM you suggested, in a 1.4 image (the one used by Moose).
>
> AthensCairoSurfaceExamples example1. complains that the function is not available. The error has been raised by NBFFICallout.
> Is there something obvious I am missing?
>
did you installed cairo library (32bit)?
it is separate step.

sudo port install cairo +universal

> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
>
> On 22 Mar 2012, at 14:01, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>
>> On 23 March 2012 18:42, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> This is really cool. We have planned to make Roassal (code name for Mondrian2) work with Cairo.
>>>
>>
>> yes.. we adding last bells and whistles to Athens, with Fernando.
>> There's some parts missing, but you already can try it out.
>>
>> Gofer it 'SqS/Athens'
>> load: 'ConfigurationOfAthens'
>>
>> ConfigurationOfAthens project version: '0.1.3' load
>>
>> To run with cairo, you will need NB-enabled VM which is here:
>> https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/NativeBoost/job/NB-Cog-Mac-Cocoa/
>>
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Alexandre
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 22 mars 2012 à 08:55, Fernando Olivero <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Gaucho is under active development, so sadly i cant release it yet.
>>>>
>>>> The good news is that i'm using Athens[1], with a Cairo backend. so
>>>> the visual appearance is greatly improved from the previous version,
>>>> amongst other goodies such as a zoomable user interface.
>>>>
>>>> I'm almost ready for a release...
>>>>
>>>> Up to my knowledge, there's no other work related to Self and Morphic
>>>> Wrappers for Pharo.
>>>>
>>>> Fernando
>>>>
>>>> [1]http://computeradventures.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/athens-a-first-babysteps/
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:06 AM, Francisco Garau
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Hi - what packages can be used in latest Pharo to manipulate objects directly?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am thinking something like MorphicWrappers, NakedObjects or Gaucho.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Francisco
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko.
>>
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Fernando olivero-2

Re: direct object manipulation

In reply to this post by abergel

Here's an extract of an email i've sent to the list when i
successfully used Cairo on Mac.

How is Roassal being rendered now? Using FormCanvas? If you have some
screenshots would be nice.

Saludos,

Fernando

pd: Regarding the build, after a lonnnngg series of errors, i also managed
to build universal binaries of Cairo, using MacPorts (brew just
doesn't ease the task of creating 32 bit libraries).
sudo port cairo +universal, worked for me, taking at least 30 min to build.

ATTENTION: Before entering the port cairo install command, I've had to
manually install appleGcc4.2, found @ [1] (file name
gcc-42-5666.3-darwin11.pkg. Given that i have Lion, XCode4.2, and if
you just allow macports to build appleGcc4.2, it will run a process
that consumes resources and finally stalls your computer!

I've attached a screen shot that may help somebody else, for setting
up the examples. Using NativeBoost Cog VM for Mac, downloadable from
NativeBoost site or Jenkins.

Great work Javier, and Igor! I'm looking forward to implement a Text
editor using Cairo+Pango + "my new morphic".

Fernando
[1] http://r.research.att.com/tools/

sudo port install cairo +universal

file /opt/local/lib/libcairo.2.dylib
/opt/local/lib/libcairo.2.dylib: Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures
/opt/local/lib/libcairo.2.dylib (for architecture i386): Mach-O
dynamically linked shared library i386
/opt/local/lib/libcairo.2.dylib (for architecture x86_64): Mach-O
64-bit dynamically linked shared library x86_64

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 29 March 2012 14:53, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Igor,
>>
>> I tried the version 0.1.3 on OSX, using the VM you suggested, in a 1.4 image (the one used by Moose).
>>
>> AthensCairoSurfaceExamples example1. complains that the function is not available. The error has been raised by NBFFICallout.
>> Is there something obvious I am missing?
>>
> did you installed cairo library (32bit)?
> it is separate step.
>
> sudo port install cairo +universal
>
>> Cheers,
>> Alexandre
>>
>>
>> On 22 Mar 2012, at 14:01, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>
>>> On 23 March 2012 18:42, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> This is really cool. We have planned to make Roassal (code name for Mondrian2) work with Cairo.
>>>>
>>>
>>> yes.. we adding last bells and whistles to Athens, with Fernando.
>>> There's some parts missing, but you already can try it out.
>>>
>>> Gofer it 'SqS/Athens'
>>> load: 'ConfigurationOfAthens'
>>>
>>> ConfigurationOfAthens project version: '0.1.3' load
>>>
>>> To run with cairo, you will need NB-enabled VM which is here:
>>> https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/NativeBoost/job/NB-Cog-Mac-Cocoa/
>>>
>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Alexandre
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 22 mars 2012 à 08:55, Fernando Olivero <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Gaucho is under active development, so sadly i cant release it yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> The good news is that i'm using Athens[1], with a Cairo backend. so
>>>>> the visual appearance is greatly improved from the previous version,
>>>>> amongst other goodies such as a zoomable user interface.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm almost ready for a release...
>>>>>
>>>>> Up to my knowledge, there's no other work related to Self and Morphic
>>>>> Wrappers for Pharo.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fernando
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]http://computeradventures.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/athens-a-first-babysteps/
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:06 AM, Francisco Garau
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi - what packages can be used in latest Pharo to manipulate objects directly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am thinking something like MorphicWrappers, NakedObjects or Gaucho.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Francisco
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Igor Stasenko.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>

abergel

Re: direct object manipulation

In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

>> AthensCairoSurfaceExamples example1. complains that the function is not available. The error has been raised by NBFFICallout.
>> Is there something obvious I am missing?
>>
> did you installed cairo library (32bit)?
> it is separate step.
>
> sudo port install cairo +universal

I didn't, but wait. What does this intall? Why not to simply package the libraries with the VM?
I tried once to use port/fink and I broke the internal of OSX, after having downloaded 500 Mb.

Alexandre

>>
>> On 22 Mar 2012, at 14:01, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>
>>> On 23 March 2012 18:42, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> This is really cool. We have planned to make Roassal (code name for Mondrian2) work with Cairo.
>>>>
>>>
>>> yes.. we adding last bells and whistles to Athens, with Fernando.
>>> There's some parts missing, but you already can try it out.
>>>
>>> Gofer it 'SqS/Athens'
>>> load: 'ConfigurationOfAthens'
>>>
>>> ConfigurationOfAthens project version: '0.1.3' load
>>>
>>> To run with cairo, you will need NB-enabled VM which is here:
>>> https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/NativeBoost/job/NB-Cog-Mac-Cocoa/
>>>
>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Alexandre
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 22 mars 2012 à 08:55, Fernando Olivero <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Gaucho is under active development, so sadly i cant release it yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> The good news is that i'm using Athens[1], with a Cairo backend. so
>>>>> the visual appearance is greatly improved from the previous version,
>>>>> amongst other goodies such as a zoomable user interface.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm almost ready for a release...
>>>>>
>>>>> Up to my knowledge, there's no other work related to Self and Morphic
>>>>> Wrappers for Pharo.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fernando
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]http://computeradventures.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/athens-a-first-babysteps/
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:06 AM, Francisco Garau
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi - what packages can be used in latest Pharo to manipulate objects directly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am thinking something like MorphicWrappers, NakedObjects or Gaucho.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Francisco
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Igor Stasenko.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

philippeback

Re: direct object manipulation

Just remove /opt/local from your default $PATH (Macports location) and add them when you open a terminal for sudo port install X

Then you can't have port mess with OSX internals. That's the whole point of Macports: they have their own libraries to avoid such interference.

Fink's another matter but I've moved to Macports. (Fink is in /sw so you can do the same to an extent).

Phil

2012/3/29 Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]>

>> AthensCairoSurfaceExamples example1. complains that the function is not available. The error has been raised by NBFFICallout.
>> Is there something obvious I am missing?
>>
> did you installed cairo library (32bit)?
> it is separate step.
>
> sudo port install cairo +universal

I didn't, but wait. What does this intall? Why not to simply package the libraries with the VM?
I tried once to use port/fink and I broke the internal of OSX, after having downloaded 500 Mb.

Alexandre

>>
>> On 22 Mar 2012, at 14:01, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>
>>> On 23 March 2012 18:42, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> This is really cool. We have planned to make Roassal (code name for Mondrian2) work with Cairo.
>>>>
>>>
>>> yes.. we adding last bells and whistles to Athens, with Fernando.
>>> There's some parts missing, but you already can try it out.
>>>
>>> Gofer it 'SqS/Athens'
>>> load: 'ConfigurationOfAthens'
>>>
>>> ConfigurationOfAthens project version: '0.1.3' load
>>>
>>> To run with cairo, you will need NB-enabled VM which is here:
>>> https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/NativeBoost/job/NB-Cog-Mac-Cocoa/
>>>
>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Alexandre
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 22 mars 2012 à 08:55, Fernando Olivero <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Gaucho is under active development, so sadly i cant release it yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> The good news is that i'm using Athens[1], with a Cairo backend. so
>>>>> the visual appearance is greatly improved from the previous version,
>>>>> amongst other goodies such as a zoomable user interface.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm almost ready for a release...
>>>>>
>>>>> Up to my knowledge, there's no other work related to Self and Morphic
>>>>> Wrappers for Pharo.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fernando
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]http://computeradventures.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/athens-a-first-babysteps/
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 2:06 AM, Francisco Garau
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi - what packages can be used in latest Pharo to manipulate objects directly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am thinking something like MorphicWrappers, NakedObjects or Gaucho.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Francisco
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Igor Stasenko.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Philippe Back

"Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve"

Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: [hidden email] | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog:

http://philippeback.be

High Octane SPRL

rue cour Boisacq 101

1301 Bierges

abergel

Re: direct object manipulation

In reply to this post by Fernando olivero-2

Here's an extract of an email i've sent to the list when i
successfully used Cairo on Mac.

How is Roassal being rendered now? Using FormCanvas? If you have some
screenshots would be nice.

I am the first one to say that screenshots are always welcomed.

Here is a few of them.

Roassal supports a low level language, so this is plain smalltalk (no dsl):

It offers some interesting interaction, such as dragging with velocity. It is like using the finger on the iphone:

A layer translates the Mondrian DSL into the low level language.

There is no scrollbar anymore. Just drag and drop the background.

I will release Roassal at the end of April probably. On the Roadmap:

- Roassal will support a nice zooming in and out. when you zoom in, other nodes appears. And when you zoom out, those nodes disappear.

- be compatible with Cairo

- some node highlighting.

- produce HTML5

- be platform independent. It will work in other smalltalk as well.

Cheers,

Alexandre

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

LawsonEnglish

Re: direct object manipulation

Very cool. What is the responsiveness when you increase the number of on-screen objects? I found that a fully connected graph with 20 nodes become almost totally unusable using the Connectors package.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwwjOO84Sn8

L

On 3/29/12 1:08 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:

Here's an extract of an email i've sent to the list when i
successfully used Cairo on Mac.

How is Roassal being rendered now? Using FormCanvas? If you have some
screenshots would be nice.

I am the first one to say that screenshots are always welcomed.

Here is a few of them.

Roassal supports a low level language, so this is plain smalltalk (no dsl):

It offers some interesting interaction, such as dragging with velocity. It is like using the finger on the iphone:

A layer translates the Mondrian DSL into the low level language.

There is no scrollbar anymore. Just drag and drop the background.

I will release Roassal at the end of April probably. On the Roadmap:

- Roassal will support a nice zooming in and out. when you zoom in, other nodes appears. And when you zoom out, those nodes disappear.

- be compatible with Cairo

- some node highlighting.

- produce HTML5

- be platform independent. It will work in other smalltalk as well.

Cheers,

Alexandre

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

abergel

Re: direct object manipulation

I haven't done any benchmarking of Roassal. I expect it can handle a few thousands without any problem.

Actually, there is not only 20 nodes in the example you gave. There is also 21*20 edges. Edges are usually much slower to render than nodes. In Roassal (as well as in Mondrian), it performs well.

However, you cannot bend edges so far...

Alexandre

On 29 Mar 2012, at 16:04, Lawson English wrote:

Very cool. What is the responsiveness when you increase the number of on-screen objects? I found that a fully connected graph with 20 nodes become almost totally unusable using the Connectors package.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwwjOO84Sn8

L

On 3/29/12 1:08 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:

Here's an extract of an email i've sent to the list when i
successfully used Cairo on Mac.

How is Roassal being rendered now? Using FormCanvas? If you have some
screenshots would be nice.

I am the first one to say that screenshots are always welcomed.

Here is a few of them.

Roassal supports a low level language, so this is plain smalltalk (no dsl):

<Mail Attachment.png>

It offers some interesting interaction, such as dragging with velocity. It is like using the finger on the iphone:

<Mail Attachment.png>

A layer translates the Mondrian DSL into the low level language.

<Mail Attachment.png>

There is no scrollbar anymore. Just drag and drop the background.

<Mail Attachment.png>

I will release Roassal at the end of April probably. On the Roadmap:

- Roassal will support a nice zooming in and out. when you zoom in, other nodes appears. And when you zoom out, those nodes disappear.

- be compatible with Cairo

- some node highlighting.

- produce HTML5

- be platform independent. It will work in other smalltalk as well.

Cheers,

Alexandre

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:

Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu

^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: direct object manipulation

In reply to this post by abergel

alex

I do not understand what means compatible with cairo :).
With athens as soon as a morph use drawOnAsAthens: instead of drawOn:
then you are drawing with cairo.

Stef

On Mar 29, 2012, at 10:08 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:

>> Here's an extract of an email i've sent to the list when i
>> successfully used Cairo on Mac.
>>
>> How is Roassal being rendered now? Using FormCanvas? If you have some
>> screenshots would be nice.
>
> I am the first one to say that screenshots are always welcomed.
> Here is a few of them.
>
> Roassal supports a low level language, so this is plain smalltalk (no dsl):
>
> <Screen Shot 2012-03-29 at 15.52.10.png>
>
> It offers some interesting interaction, such as dragging with velocity. It is like using the finger on the iphone:
>
> <Screen Shot 2012-03-29 at 15.53.30.png>
>
> A layer translates the Mondrian DSL into the low level language.
>
> <Screen Shot 2012-03-29 at 15.54.41.png>
>
> There is no scrollbar anymore. Just drag and drop the background.
>
> <Screen Shot 2012-03-29 at 16.01.29.png>
>
>
>
> I will release Roassal at the end of April probably. On the Roadmap:
> - Roassal will support a nice zooming in and out. when you zoom in, other nodes appears. And when you zoom out, those nodes disappear.
> - be compatible with Cairo
> - some node highlighting.
> - produce HTML5
> - be platform independent. It will work in other smalltalk as well.
>
> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>

Igor Stasenko

Re: direct object manipulation

In reply to this post by abergel

On 29 March 2012 20:02, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> AthensCairoSurfaceExamples example1. complains that the function is not available. The error has been raised by NBFFICallout.
>>> Is there something obvious I am missing?
>>>
>> did you installed cairo library (32bit)?
>> it is separate step.
>>
>> sudo port install cairo +universal
>
> I didn't, but wait. What does this intall? Why not to simply package the libraries with the VM?

because it is a third-party library.
To me, your proposal sounds similar to "why not simply package
Operating System libraries with the VM".
Because in this case you need cairo. But in case of OpenGL, you will
need opengl libs.. so "package everything" goes nowhere.

> I tried once to use port/fink and I broke the internal of OSX, after having downloaded 500 Mb.
>
i know that using external libs sometimes is painful. But this is like
that. And we're not alone with these problems.
I think there's many other software which have to deal with it.

Another solution is to implement everything by own :)

> Alexandre
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

abergel

Re: direct object manipulation

>> I didn't, but wait. What does this intall? Why not to simply package the libraries with the VM?
>
> because it is a third-party library.
> To me, your proposal sounds similar to "why not simply package
> Operating System libraries with the VM".
> Because in this case you need cairo. But in case of OpenGL, you will
> need opengl libs.. so "package everything" goes nowhere.
>
>> I tried once to use port/fink and I broke the internal of OSX, after having downloaded 500 Mb.
>>
> i know that using external libs sometimes is painful. But this is like
> that. And we're not alone with these problems.
> I think there's many other software which have to deal with it.
>
> Another solution is to implement everything by own :)

Well... The Cairo libraries are shipped with VisualWorks. When I install VW, I've just say that I want Cairo, and everything works well. I have played a bit with Cairo on VW and I am quite happy so far.
I would not have played with it if I had to install the lib externally with port/fink.
I personally would not mind to have the virtual machine twice as big if cairo is shipped with it.

I think it depends on what do you want to do in the mid-long term: throwing away the squeak bitmap rendering and using Cairo for real? What should be the external library, the squeak bitmap rendering or Cairo?

Alexandre

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Igor Stasenko

Re: direct object manipulation

On 30 March 2012 16:30, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>> I didn't, but wait. What does this intall? Why not to simply package the libraries with the VM?
>>
>> because it is a third-party library.
>> To me, your proposal sounds similar to "why not simply package
>> Operating System libraries with the VM".
>> Because in this case you need cairo. But in case of OpenGL, you will
>> need opengl libs.. so "package everything" goes nowhere.
>>
>>> I tried once to use port/fink and I broke the internal of OSX, after having downloaded 500 Mb.
>>>
>> i know that using external libs sometimes is painful. But this is like
>> that. And we're not alone with these problems.
>> I think there's many other software which have to deal with it.
>>
>> Another solution is to implement everything by own :)
>
>
> Well... The Cairo libraries are shipped with VisualWorks. When I install VW, I've just say that I want Cairo, and everything works well. I have played a bit with Cairo on VW and I am quite happy so far.
> I would not have played with it if I had to install the lib externally with port/fink.
> I personally would not mind to have the virtual machine twice as big if cairo is shipped with it.
>

I know i know.. It is what 1-click images for.. where everything
stuffed together.
Now, did i mentioned already that i don't like it?
It is good for starters.. but bad for one big thing: you vaccinating
people from keeping an eye on updates
because they think they should use only 1-click package and nothing else exists.

And then when they reporting problems, usual answer is "it is already
fixed in recent version",
but they don't know how to download update, because all they know is 1-click.

Let's not turn developers into a housewives. You are developer, you
should know how software works,
and you should know how to download, install , upgrade and run it.
And if you don't, then learn, otherwise it is your fault or you just
picked wrong profession for your career. :)

> I think it depends on what do you want to do in the mid-long term: throwing away the squeak bitmap rendering and using Cairo for real? What should be the external library, the squeak bitmap rendering or Cairo?
>

I don't understand your question.
Cairo is one of the backends for Athens. And it quite possible happen,
won't be the best one.
If you don't want to install cairo library, you can try Athens without
cairo installed.
Then you should use AthensBalloonSurface instead of AthensCairoSurface.

> Alexandre
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

philippeback

Re: direct object manipulation

This is a chicken and egg problem.

And a popularity contest game as well.

Without one click, you'll piss people off fast and they'll go look elsewhere. Then you loose traction and that's bad.

If I didn't had one click, I wouldn't have been learning as fast as I've been.

Now I do have all pieces from different locations (even wanting to build the VM on my own).

For contrast, look at another community I am part of: Tiki Wiki CMS Groupware. The system is topping SourceForge number of downloads, committers, and is a general success for intranets in companies.

Of course, the paradigm isn't pure at all, but easy enough to have a lot of people contributing good stuff.

We are at version 9 and I don't know any other package that is as feature rich when it comes to the web.

We are talking more than a million lines of code here.

Now, we are moving further than one click: hosting providers provide a full VM with everything installed for the stack.

As of software developers, I do view 4 categories:

- constructivists using established abstractions and not requiring further exposure to inner workings of the system. They deliver business value for common problems.

- bridges understanding how the system works inside and are able to convey usage patterns to the constructivists. They also feed back real world usage problems to the next kind so that the system stays useful and not pie in the skyish.

- abstractionists: able to come up with a powerful set of abstractions to solve a given problem in a general manner. Framework makers are here

- technology makers: create core tech. Like a Cog-VM thing, CUDA, ..

Try to pair types by jumping one strata and you are asking for trouble.

Except for rare seasoned developers that are master of their craft and are able to display behavioral flexibility.

But these are a rare breed and you won't get them for a long time anyway as these are seekers.

</endofrant>

2012/3/30 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>

On 30 March 2012 16:30, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I didn't, but wait. What does this intall? Why not to simply package the libraries with the VM?
>>
>> because it is a third-party library.
>> To me, your proposal sounds similar to "why not simply package
>> Operating System libraries with the VM".
>> Because in this case you need cairo. But in case of OpenGL, you will
>> need opengl libs.. so "package everything" goes nowhere.
>>
>>> I tried once to use port/fink and I broke the internal of OSX, after having downloaded 500 Mb.
>>>
>> i know that using external libs sometimes is painful. But this is like
>> that. And we're not alone with these problems.
>> I think there's many other software which have to deal with it.
>>
>> Another solution is to implement everything by own :)
>
>
> Well... The Cairo libraries are shipped with VisualWorks. When I install VW, I've just say that I want Cairo, and everything works well. I have played a bit with Cairo on VW and I am quite happy so far.
> I would not have played with it if I had to install the lib externally with port/fink.
> I personally would not mind to have the virtual machine twice as big if cairo is shipped with it.
>

I know i know.. It is what 1-click images for.. where everything
stuffed together.
Now, did i mentioned already that i don't like it?
It is good for starters.. but bad for one big thing: you vaccinating
people from keeping an eye on updates
because they think they should use only 1-click package and nothing else exists.

And then when they reporting problems, usual answer is "it is already
fixed in recent version",
but they don't know how to download update, because all they know is 1-click.

Let's not turn developers into a housewives. You are developer, you
should know how software works,
and you should know how to download, install , upgrade and run it.
And if you don't, then learn, otherwise it is your fault or you just
picked wrong profession for your career. :)

> I think it depends on what do you want to do in the mid-long term: throwing away the squeak bitmap rendering and using Cairo for real? What should be the external library, the squeak bitmap rendering or Cairo?
>

I don't understand your question.
Cairo is one of the backends for Athens. And it quite possible happen,
won't be the best one.
If you don't want to install cairo library, you can try Athens without
cairo installed.
Then you should use AthensBalloonSurface instead of AthensCairoSurface.

> Alexandre
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Philippe Back

"Helping you hit the top 3 outcomes you really want to achieve"

Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: [hidden email] | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog:

http://philippeback.be

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rue cour Boisacq 101

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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: direct object manipulation

In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

>>
>
> Let's not turn developers into a housewives. You are developer, you
> should know how software works,
> and you should know how to download, install , upgrade and run it.
> And if you don't, then learn, otherwise it is your fault or you just
> picked wrong profession for your career. :)

Igor this is not really true because a good installer would be good.
And do not underestimate newcomers experience. I want it to be excellent.

Now alex squeak shipped old libraries that were banned on certain linux distribution
so binding everything is not the panacea.

>> I think it depends on what do you want to do in the mid-long term: throwing away the squeak bitmap rendering and using Cairo for real? What should be the external library, the squeak bitmap rendering or Cairo?
>>
>
> I don't understand your question.
> Cairo is one of the backends for Athens. And it quite possible happen,
> won't be the best one.
> If you don't want to install cairo library, you can try Athens without
> cairo installed.
> Then you should use AthensBalloonSurface instead of AthensCairoSurface.
>
>> Alexandre
>>
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>