getting rid of these boring questions and popup

Hi guys

I would like what you think of these wonderful popups that try to help  
to
write cool code but just get in my way:
        "this variable is not used....
        you did not store into it....

Could we agree that we are adults?
and this is more a pain than anything else?

Stef

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i would be quite happy if the "this variable is not used" was picked
up by a lint rule.  the "your using this variable and you haven't yet
assigned a value" is sometimes nice. however, if lint/slint/slime (?)
had a nice permanent UI mechanism in the browser (i haven't checked)
then I would get rid the former in preference of such a framework that
can point out all sorts of useful things with the code when you accept
methods. could then be package / context aware etc.

Mike

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Stéphane Ducasse
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Stef,

Yes, the popups should go away - far away :)  A code mentor pane with lint rule violations would be greatly appreciated, but the modal messages are too much.  Sometimes I want to save code that I know will generate errors, with reasons ranging from "I'll let it blow up and choose to implement it from the debugger" to "don't want to lose this, so let's get it accepted before I do something stupid."

Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Roberts
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 4:21 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup

i would be quite happy if the "this variable is not used" was picked up by a lint rule.  the "your using this variable and you haven't yet assigned a value" is sometimes nice. however, if lint/slint/slime (?) had a nice permanent UI mechanism in the browser (i haven't checked) then I would get rid the former in preference of such a framework that can point out all sorts of useful things with the code when you accept methods. could then be package / context aware etc.

Mike

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
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+1

On 2009-09-11 18:32:18 -0300, "Schwab,Wilhelm K"
<[hidden email]> said:




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is it possible to show with flag "Do not hastiate anymore?" and save
state in current instance of editor (or some)?

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 01:32, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> wrote:
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The answer to "is it possible to..." is almost always yes.  I think it would be easier to suppress the popups add some type of analyzer/mentor pane, but I'm no expert on how the browsers work.

Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andrey Larionov
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 4:54 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup

is it possible to show with flag "Do not hastiate anymore?" and save state in current instance of editor (or some)?

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 01:32, Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Yes this is what I think.
The interface of SmallLint should really be improved.

Stef
On Sep 11, 2009, at 11:21 PM, Michael Roberts wrote:


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On Sep 11, 2009, at 11:32 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Stef,
>
> Yes, the popups should go away - far away :)  A code mentor pane  
> with lint rule violations would be greatly appreciated, but the  
> modal messages are too much.  Sometimes I want to save code that I  
> know will generate errors, with reasons ranging from "I'll let it  
> blow up and choose to implement it from the debugger" to "don't want  
> to lose this, so let's get it accepted before I do something stupid."

same here!
At least we have a common vision and we can go slowly there.

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I agree 100%.  less is more sometimes.
Il giorno Sep 11, 2009, alle ore 7:12 PM, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto:


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Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
> Hi guys
>
> I would like what you think of these wonderful popups that try to help  
> to

Just do what Eclipse does. Highlight it as a problem and offer a quick
fix (Ctrl + 1).

Cheers
Philippe


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well for this we will have to rewrite paragraphEditor :)
So in making pharo moves forward we will have to accept losing some  
feedback.
But yes your idea is cool.

Stef

On Sep 12, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote:


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Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
> well for this we will have to rewrite paragraphEditor :)
> So in making pharo moves forward we will have to accept losing some  
> feedback.

The feedback is still there. The piece of code is still marked as a
problem. It just doesn't get in your way.

> But yes your idea is cool.

You'll have to do more than that. I think this whole 80ies style browser
that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore
and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it.

Example, why is the browser the size it currently is? Because that was
more or less full screen in the 80ies. Consequence you'll always have to
resize and scroll when you open a browser because the category and class
panes are too small. I see how this was cool, exciting and new in the
80ies but today it gets in my way.

Example, I want to go to a method in a class. Either I click '--all--'
and scroll, scroll, look, scroll, scroll back or I click through the
protocols until I found on it. When I'm in Eclipse and want to open a
variable or method declaration I hit Ctrl + O, Eclipse shows me a short
outline of the class. Like in Firefox Awesome Bar it filters the list as
I type part of the name. Once I select something it closes and goes
there. Zero mouse activity. Zero additional window. When I'm in a method
and want to go to a method invoked there either I Ctrl + click it or I
hit F3. When I want to see the hierarchy of a class or the inheritance
of a method I just do Ctrl + T and an inline window opens. It closes
when I select something or hit Esc. Pharo stacks so many windows on top
of each other that you're never going to find your way back. So at the
end of the day you just close dozens of windows.

Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for
confirmation, ever. If he decides to delete Migros, we do it without
asking. The previous version of the product did but users just developed
a reflex to click popups away without even reading them.

And don't get me started on breakpoints. Or blocking the UI.

Cheers
Philippe


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I agree. :)
I would love to have that.
this is why we should really have a system to experiment these ideas.

Stef

On Sep 12, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote:


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Philippe,

I am not an eclipse user, so I could be missing something, just as I think people who have not worked with Dolphin's IDE cannot fully appreciate its robustness.  However, I find it hard to believe the scrollbars and time-tested methods of text editing can be rendered obsolete with a few keyboard shortcuts.  You would no doubt find some of my methods too long; I respond that the alternative has too many entry points.  The extra entry points are all the more offensive to me without Dolphin's ability to apply multile categories to methods - again, something one has to experience to fully appreciate.

The idea of non-modally flagging offending code is well taken, but I find two flaws: (1) the highlighting itself could easily "get in my way" by adding visual clutter; (2) you seem to assume there is at most one rule violation.  You say that adding panes will not fix things, but it seems that a pane showing the broken rules is exactly what is needed.  An alternative might be a drop-down of broken rules, whith the selection (defaulting to nothing) highlighting the code breaking that rule.

I agree that the current browser's panes are not optimally sized.  However, I doubt that there is a univeral preference that will satisfy all users.  Further, I have never like "system browsers" in Smalltalk systems; a filtered class hierarchy browser is vastly superior IMHO.  Again going back to Dolphin, it's use of tabs for the various browser panes is subtly but vastly superior to Squeak and Pharo's use of buttons to change the pane contents.  The difference is that multiple views on a selection (class, class+method, class+method+instance variable, etc.) can be "open" at the same time.  It becomes much easy to use one browser to edit a method, go to the class definition to view/copy variable names, go back to the code to keep typing, and not have to accept the method along the way.

Any promise to provide summaries or alternate representation of code always makes me nervous; it is fine as an option, but not as a replacement for text editing.  I format my code in particular ways, including (especially!!!) comments, and that formatting is analogous to phrasing in music.  In porting a lot of my Dolphin code in recent months, I have been reminded of how important my month-year tagged comments can be - they helped me find three long-standing bugs in just the past week.  For two of those bugs, the seeds of the solution were suggested by the comments themselves.  I like my code and my scrollbars.  Version history can provide some of the same assistance, but it gets clobbered by compressing changes and requires one to compare the versions and/or read through a machine's efforts to present the differences.  The comments I leave for myself are designed to be useful to me in the future, and have stood the test of time.

Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Philippe Marschall
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:16 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup

Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
> well for this we will have to rewrite paragraphEditor :) So in making
> pharo moves forward we will have to accept losing some feedback.

The feedback is still there. The piece of code is still marked as a problem. It just doesn't get in your way.

> But yes your idea is cool.

You'll have to do more than that. I think this whole 80ies style browser that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it.

Example, why is the browser the size it currently is? Because that was more or less full screen in the 80ies. Consequence you'll always have to resize and scroll when you open a browser because the category and class panes are too small. I see how this was cool, exciting and new in the 80ies but today it gets in my way.

Example, I want to go to a method in a class. Either I click '--all--'
and scroll, scroll, look, scroll, scroll back or I click through the protocols until I found on it. When I'm in Eclipse and want to open a variable or method declaration I hit Ctrl + O, Eclipse shows me a short outline of the class. Like in Firefox Awesome Bar it filters the list as I type part of the name. Once I select something it closes and goes there. Zero mouse activity. Zero additional window. When I'm in a method and want to go to a method invoked there either I Ctrl + click it or I hit F3. When I want to see the hierarchy of a class or the inheritance of a method I just do Ctrl + T and an inline window opens. It closes when I select something or hit Esc. Pharo stacks so many windows on top of each other that you're never going to find your way back. So at the end of the day you just close dozens of windows.

Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for confirmation, ever. If he decides to delete Migros, we do it without asking. The previous version of the product did but users just developed a reflex to click popups away without even reading them.

And don't get me started on breakpoints. Or blocking the UI.

Cheers
Philippe


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Stef,

I'm all for trying things like this, but have my reservation about replacing a good text editor; adding alternatives is fine, of course.

Are you going to be in Orlando for OOPSLA?  I do not have funding to register, but live close enough that it would be a shame not to meet up on a free evening for you.  Not only would I enjoy meeting you and others, but I would like to give you a brief tour of Dolphin's IDE (such as its definition/code/comment panes) and a few goodies that I have found helpful.  There are some simple changes we could make that would greatly enhance the usability of the browsers and other tools.  Events or announcements added to the tools would enable extensions like those that can be very effective in the Dolphin IDE.  I would welcome an opportunity to demonstrate some simple changes that would help us.

Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 12:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup

I agree. :)
I would love to have that.
this is why we should really have a system to experiment these ideas.

Stef

On Sep 12, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote:


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In past ESUG media (presentation slides) i saw and briliant example of
enchancing Shout (or paragraph editor) with interactive icons. Is this
work incomplete or it can be observed?  In presentation it was named
OBEnchancments, but i didnt saw any of this features in Squeak or
Pharo.

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 21:02, Stéphane Ducasse
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On Sep 12, 2009, at 7:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

> Stef,
>
> I'm all for trying things like this, but have my reservation about  
> replacing a good text editor; adding alternatives is fine, of course.

paragraphEditor is not inline with what we coudl expect from a  
paragraphEditor nowadays. Now building one is far from easy.
>
> Are you going to be in Orlando for OOPSLA?

No

what you could do is a video :)

Stef


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> In past ESUG media (presentation slides) i saw and briliant example of
> enchancing Shout (or paragraph editor) with interactive icons. Is this
> work incomplete or it can be observed?  In presentation it was named
> OBEnchancments, but i didnt saw any of this features in Squeak or
> Pharo.

I do not know.
Now what you have with OB (since lukas push the idea there), is that  
you can use the icons
to navigate the class hierarchy and laucnh tests and others.

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2009/9/12 Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
I having the same vision. Browser should not prevent you from
accepting the badly crafted code. It should allow it
unless there is syntax errors.
All warnings, like unused temps, use of unassigned temps etc, should
pop-up in a list pane below the code pane,
so user could see it and react, or just ignore and go & do something
else. Btw, this pane could be reused for more deeper/complex
code analyzing tools, like lint etc.

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--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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yeap good idea.
A kind of log console.
Stef

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