latest Pier and Seaside 2.8

I noticed that newer Pier and Magritte-Seaside commits in MC have a few
comments about being "for very latest Seaside." I assume that this means
Seaside 2.8. First, it would be nice if the exact version was stated in
the comments so we could tell what "very latest" means :-). Second: are
these _only_ for Seaside 2.8, or will they work in 2.7? If not, it would
be best if these could be labeled to reflect their exclusivity.

( I didn't see that this has been discussed before.)

brad

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I guess the latest Magritte should work for any recent version of  
Seaside (2.7). There is nothing specific for 2.8. The comments are  
basically wrong.

Cheers,
Lukas

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2007/4/13, Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]>:
Last magritte versions can be loaded on a Seaside 2.7 image. I don't
know about Pier.

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It is the same for Pier. Magritte and Pier should both work in  
Seaside 2.7.

If you want to use Seaside 2.8 (and benefit from the major speed  
improvements) go with the configuration I recently posted (latest  
Magritte, latest Pier, Seaside2.8a1-lr.218, RSRSS-pmm.26). Don't take  
the latest versions of Seaside, they are subtly broken (work in  
progress).

Lukas

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Hi,

> If you want to use Seaside 2.8 (and benefit from the major speed  
> improvements) go with the configuration I recently posted (latest  
> Magritte, latest Pier, Seaside2.8a1-lr.218, RSRSS-pmm.26). Don't take  
> the latest versions of Seaside, they are subtly broken (work in  
> progress).

I'm just curious that how much faster the seaside 2.8 is (than 2.7/2.6).
Yes, I know that this is wrong question because it will be different
from case by case, but for example,

1. page generation(?) speed
2. simple request processing speed - maybe counter example?
3. I/O (network or file) speed

>
> Lukas
>

Thanks in advance.
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> I'm just curious that how much faster the seaside 2.8 is (than  
> 2.7/2.6).
> Yes, I know that this is wrong question because it will be different
> from case by case, but for example,

It is a bit early to talk about exact figures.

> 1. page generation(?) speed

Generating a Pier page is at least twice as fast with Seaside 2.8.  
Other applications also show major page rendering improvement, but it  
heavily depends on the kind of application.

> 2. simple request processing speed - maybe counter example?

None as of now.

Major memory improvements (and managing less memory is presumably  
also much faster) are possible by using partial continuations. There  
are currently some experiments driven, however it is not that easy to  
do and it requires major rewrites of the whole query processing.

> 3. I/O (network or file) speed

None as of now.

For now Seaside development focuses on 1 and 2. 3 is equally  
important, but it is a bit out of the scope of most peoples interests.

Cheers,
Lukas

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http://www.lukas-renggli.ch


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Lukas Renggli wrote:
>>> 1. page generation(?) speed
>
> Generating a Pier page is at least twice as fast with Seaside 2.8.  
> Other applications also show major page rendering improvement, but it  
> heavily depends on the kind of application.
>

Good to hear this.

>>> 2. simple request processing speed - maybe counter example?
>
> None as of now.
>
> Major memory improvements (and managing less memory is presumably  
> also much faster) are possible by using partial continuations. There  
> are currently some experiments driven, however it is not that easy to  
> do and it requires major rewrites of the whole query processing.
>

I also hope some improvements here.

>>> 3. I/O (network or file) speed
>
> None as of now.
>
> For now Seaside development focuses on 1 and 2. 3 is equally  
> important, but it is a bit out of the scope of most peoples interests.

It seems that I/O speed is not good in Seaside (actually Squeak). Though
I have no experience on writing plugin, can I get some improvement if I
create plugin which reads data from other server through network and
shoot it out to currently connected socket(native?)? Is this possible?
I'm thinking something like passthrough function in PHP.

>
> Cheers,
> Lukas
>

Thank you as always.

> - --
> Lukas Renggli

Sungjin Chun
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2007/4/13, Sungjin Chun <[hidden email]>:
As bad as Squeak IO might be, it's not a bottleneck for Seaside. There
are some places where plugins might provide measurable speedup
(encoding, ...) but we are not that desperate yet.

Philippe

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If you're going to write a plug in I would look at lighttpd.  The creator of
it uses the fastest possible way to send files on all platforms it runs on.  
For example, on linux is uses a zero copy system call (sendfile) to send the
data.

For those of you not familiar with the "zero copy" concept, someone once
rewrote the standard C printf library to be zero copy and I don't remember
the numbers but I do remember the speed up was substantial (can't remember
the numbers, I think it was in one of the Stevenson's unix books).

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And I would like to know what has been lost (if anything).  Is there
anything Seaside could do before that is not possible anymore?

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>> I'm just curious that how much faster the seaside 2.8 is (than  
>> 2.7/2.6).
>> Yes, I know that this is wrong question because it will be different
>> from case by case, but for example,
>
> And I would like to know what has been lost (if anything).  Is there
> anything Seaside could do before that is not possible anymore?

No, nothing lost, I hope.

Lukas

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Hehe.  Ok.  :)  I mean like, you are switching the Continuation mechanism,
no?  Wont that mean some things wont be able to work as before?

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>
> If you want to use Seaside 2.8 (and benefit from the major speed
> improvements) go with the configuration I recently posted
> (latest Magritte, latest Pier, Seaside2.8a1-lr.218,
> RSRSS-pmm.26). Don't take the latest versions of Seaside,
> they are subtly broken (work in progress).
>
> Lukas

Which exact version of Scriptaculous would go with those, I'm going to
attempt an upgrade soon for the speed improvements and this is what I
needed.

Ramon Leon
http://onsmalltalk.com


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> Hehe.  Ok.  :)  I mean like, you are switching the Continuation  
> mechanism, no?  Wont that mean some things wont be able to work as  
> before?

Well, that should also happen under the hood. If we can make it happen.

Lukas

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> Which exact version of Scriptaculous would go with those, I'm going to
> attempt an upgrade soon for the speed improvements and this is what I
> needed.

Scriptaculous-lr.179
Seaside2.8a1-lr.220
RSRSS-pmm.26

and the latest of Magritte and Pier works well.

Lukas

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Philippe Marschall wrote:
>> As bad as Squeak IO might be, it's not a bottleneck for Seaside. There
>> are some places where plugins might provide measurable speedup
>> (encoding, ...) but we are not that desperate yet.
>

I'm considering this kind of improvement because my personal program
does have data transfer function which reads data from other storage
server and shoot the file data - which I cannot access directly - to
browser. From PHP version of this transfer program, the load of system
is very low and stable, but for squeak version which I integrated with
seaside, does task much load of CPU and sometimes browser said that
connection is closed during transaction. But like you, I'm not that
desperate on this respect :-)

>> Philippe
>

Sungjin Chun
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Fair enough.  The framework is in the best of hands.  I just wanted to see
if this was one of those "well, we don't actually need X, we can use
Javascript" type things.

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