more Nautilus feed back

>
> On Mar 8, 2012, at 8:25 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm using Nautilus for my current projects since... well... couple of days,
> and I have some  feedback:
>
> (yeah... maybe they are dumb reports, but that's because you did a great
> work with nautilus, I just have some really small observations :)
>
> 1) OB had double-click action: show hierarchy. I miss it a lot :(
>
>
> If you activate the "open a class on hierarchy" setting, it does the same :)
>
> Also, hierarchy button is too far away when I want to see the
> hierarchy... ok, if you don't want to add double click functionality... can
> it be a menu option? (show hierarchy (h))
>
>
> Maybe I should switch the group button and the hierarchy button. It will
> make more sense :)
>
> Even worst: it swaps panels which is very confusing... but that leads to
> point 2 :)
>
>
> There are some good arguments to do that :) But I am quite fed up to tell
> them again and again ^^
>
> 2) swap panel configuration is not working for me in latest pharo 1.4
>
>
> Ie ?
>
> 3) I find "Class", "Instance" buttons very confusing. I liked more the older
> solution but well, I understand you want to improve visibility of comments,
> but then, I think class button would be better as a "toggle" button (those
> buttons who stays pressed)
>
>
> Do you have an example of such a button ?
>
> 4) bold for class side method and categories is too strong, I don't see any
> reason for that, we have panel titles and future ;) toggle button to know
> which side is.
>
>
> Some people (Laurent not toell who) complain about the lack of visibility.
> And indeed, I found than when you have multiples browsers, it helps a lot to
> find where you are in a second.
>
> 5) OB had a #browserIcon method on classes who changed class icon on
> browser. This is really useful for knowing different types/hierarchies like
> errors, announcements, morphs, etc. Again, this collides with "uncommented"
> icon, but I would like to have them back...
>
>
> There are icons for
> Morph/Erros/Announcements/Magnitude/String/Collection/etc... But maybe I
> could also add a mechanism to let each class defines it's own icon.
>
> 6) I'm sorry for saying this, but I don't like the icons, nor the colored
> options (source, bytecode, decompiled, etc.) at the side. I would prefer a
> combo on button panel... and better looking icons (yes Stef, FamFam icons is
> ok :)
>
>
> I will be really glad to use yours :) You know, I am kind of a programmer.
> It means that making icons is not my work. And due to that, it takes me ages
> to do them.
> I have no problem to change them at all, but I really don't have time to do
> them.
>

> 7) Why we have a button panel (which is in fact a toolbar) in the middle of
> the browser and not where it belongs: on top? this is a remain of OB, who
> took this from old Browser... but conceptually (as in usability terms), this
> is a not-good solution. We could think on change this and place the button
> bar where it belongs (and add some cool keybindings too)
>
>
> You can't say that the hierarchy button is to far, and ask for putting the
> toolbar on top ^^
> It's here because it's close to the lists (where you spend 20% of your time)
> and also close to the source code (where you spend 80% of your time).
>
> 8) different sized buttons are a really bad concept. Yes... in Smalltalk
> this is very common: to create buttons with the size of text... but this is
> bad design because disrupts harmony, and that hurts to the eyes... and when
> something hurts, you try not to use it :)
>
>
> I can't agree more. But buttons are kind of a pain in the ass (because they
> are embedded into a group morph with its own layout etc). As soon as I can
> set
> vResizing: #rigid; hResizing: #rigid, I'll do it for sure ^^
>
>
> yeah.. most of my observations are also for any other tool we have, and most
> are about usability... I humbly recommend (for all people doing GUIs), the
> lecture of this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_Make_Me_Think. It
> is for web design, but is also a great guide when you want to make things
> people like.
>
> (Also, reading apple design guide is a good way to notice some interesting
> things... those guys had invest an insanely amount of time and money in
> development them)
>
>
> I will try to find time to read them, but as I said, my exams are in 11 days
> so ;)
>

> On 8 March 2012 23:24, Benjamin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Mar 8, 2012, at 8:25 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm using Nautilus for my current projects since... well... couple of days,
>> and I have some  feedback:
>>
>> (yeah... maybe they are dumb reports, but that's because you did a great
>> work with nautilus, I just have some really small observations :)
>>
>> 1) OB had double-click action: show hierarchy. I miss it a lot :(
>>
>>
>> If you activate the "open a class on hierarchy" setting, it does the same :)
>>
>> Also, hierarchy button is too far away when I want to see the
>> hierarchy... ok, if you don't want to add double click functionality... can
>> it be a menu option? (show hierarchy (h))
>>
>>
>> Maybe I should switch the group button and the hierarchy button. It will
>> make more sense :)
>>
>> Even worst: it swaps panels which is very confusing... but that leads to
>> point 2 :)
>>
>>
>> There are some good arguments to do that :) But I am quite fed up to tell
>> them again and again ^^
>>
>> 2) swap panel configuration is not working for me in latest pharo 1.4
>>
>>
>> Ie ?
>>
>> 3) I find "Class", "Instance" buttons very confusing. I liked more the older
>> solution but well, I understand you want to improve visibility of comments,
>> but then, I think class button would be better as a "toggle" button (those
>> buttons who stays pressed)
>>
>>
>> Do you have an example of such a button ?
>>
>> 4) bold for class side method and categories is too strong, I don't see any
>> reason for that, we have panel titles and future ;) toggle button to know
>> which side is.
>>
>>
>> Some people (Laurent not toell who) complain about the lack of visibility.
>> And indeed, I found than when you have multiples browsers, it helps a lot to
>> find where you are in a second.
>>
>> 5) OB had a #browserIcon method on classes who changed class icon on
>> browser. This is really useful for knowing different types/hierarchies like
>> errors, announcements, morphs, etc. Again, this collides with "uncommented"
>> icon, but I would like to have them back...
>>
>>
>> There are icons for
>> Morph/Erros/Announcements/Magnitude/String/Collection/etc... But maybe I
>> could also add a mechanism to let each class defines it's own icon.
>>
>> 6) I'm sorry for saying this, but I don't like the icons, nor the colored
>> options (source, bytecode, decompiled, etc.) at the side. I would prefer a
>> combo on button panel... and better looking icons (yes Stef, FamFam icons is
>> ok :)
>>
>>
>> I will be really glad to use yours :) You know, I am kind of a programmer.
>> It means that making icons is not my work. And due to that, it takes me ages
>> to do them.
>> I have no problem to change them at all, but I really don't have time to do
>> them.
>>
> so then go finish arts and design schools (min 5 years each). and only
> then you may get back and continue working on nautilus! Hurry up. :)

>> 7) Why we have a button panel (which is in fact a toolbar) in the middle of
>> the browser and not where it belongs: on top? this is a remain of OB, who
>> took this from old Browser... but conceptually (as in usability terms), this
>> is a not-good solution. We could think on change this and place the button
>> bar where it belongs (and add some cool keybindings too)
>>
>>
>> You can't say that the hierarchy button is to far, and ask for putting the
>> toolbar on top ^^
>> It's here because it's close to the lists (where you spend 20% of your time)
>> and also close to the source code (where you spend 80% of your time).
>>
>> 8) different sized buttons are a really bad concept. Yes... in Smalltalk
>> this is very common: to create buttons with the size of text... but this is
>> bad design because disrupts harmony, and that hurts to the eyes... and when
>> something hurts, you try not to use it :)
>>
>>
>> I can't agree more. But buttons are kind of a pain in the ass (because they
>> are embedded into a group morph with its own layout etc). As soon as I can
>> set
>> vResizing: #rigid; hResizing: #rigid, I'll do it for sure ^^
>>
>>
>> yeah.. most of my observations are also for any other tool we have, and most
>> are about usability... I humbly recommend (for all people doing GUIs), the
>> lecture of this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_Make_Me_Think. It
>> is for web design, but is also a great guide when you want to make things
>> people like.
>>
>> (Also, reading apple design guide is a good way to notice some interesting
>> things... those guys had invest an insanely amount of time and money in
>> development them)
>>
>>
>> I will try to find time to read them, but as I said, my exams are in 11 days
>> so ;)
>>
> no. arts school first.

>
> ohh.. nothing is perfect. changes are not always better to what we had.
> but staying is worst of everything.
> just keep pushing.
>
> I can also easily tell what i don't like in Nautilus. Much harder is
> to propose alternative.
> I think that feedback about UI should always come with alternative,
> explaining why you think its better. Or if one feels that old ways is
> better he should argument that (an argument 'because i get used to it'
> is WRONG argument ;).
>
> Today i had full day hacking using Nautilus. And found some bugs. Hope
> next iteration they will be fixed. :)
> There are some rough corners here and there, but overall impression -
> it is quite good.
> I will be starting giving more feedback once i will get used to it.
> Because 1 day is too little to say anything definitive.. i need more
> immersion to make my feedback more problem-oriented, not tainted by "i
> don't like it because it different" attitude.

>
>>
>> Thanks for the feedback :)
>>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>

>
> On Mar 9, 2012, at 12:17 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>
>> On 8 March 2012 23:24, Benjamin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mar 8, 2012, at 8:25 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm using Nautilus for my current projects since... well... couple of days,
>>> and I have some  feedback:
>>>
>>> (yeah... maybe they are dumb reports, but that's because you did a great
>>> work with nautilus, I just have some really small observations :)
>>>
>>> 1) OB had double-click action: show hierarchy. I miss it a lot :(
>>>
>>>
>>> If you activate the "open a class on hierarchy" setting, it does the same :)
>>>
>>> Also, hierarchy button is too far away when I want to see the
>>> hierarchy... ok, if you don't want to add double click functionality... can
>>> it be a menu option? (show hierarchy (h))
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe I should switch the group button and the hierarchy button. It will
>>> make more sense :)
>>>
>>> Even worst: it swaps panels which is very confusing... but that leads to
>>> point 2 :)
>>>
>>>
>>> There are some good arguments to do that :) But I am quite fed up to tell
>>> them again and again ^^
>>>
>>> 2) swap panel configuration is not working for me in latest pharo 1.4
>>>
>>>
>>> Ie ?
>>>
>>> 3) I find "Class", "Instance" buttons very confusing. I liked more the older
>>> solution but well, I understand you want to improve visibility of comments,
>>> but then, I think class button would be better as a "toggle" button (those
>>> buttons who stays pressed)
>>>
>>>
>>> Do you have an example of such a button ?
>>>
>>> 4) bold for class side method and categories is too strong, I don't see any
>>> reason for that, we have panel titles and future ;) toggle button to know
>>> which side is.
>>>
>>>
>>> Some people (Laurent not toell who) complain about the lack of visibility.
>>> And indeed, I found than when you have multiples browsers, it helps a lot to
>>> find where you are in a second.
>>>
>>> 5) OB had a #browserIcon method on classes who changed class icon on
>>> browser. This is really useful for knowing different types/hierarchies like
>>> errors, announcements, morphs, etc. Again, this collides with "uncommented"
>>> icon, but I would like to have them back...
>>>
>>>
>>> There are icons for
>>> Morph/Erros/Announcements/Magnitude/String/Collection/etc... But maybe I
>>> could also add a mechanism to let each class defines it's own icon.
>>>
>>> 6) I'm sorry for saying this, but I don't like the icons, nor the colored
>>> options (source, bytecode, decompiled, etc.) at the side. I would prefer a
>>> combo on button panel... and better looking icons (yes Stef, FamFam icons is
>>> ok :)
>>>
>>>
>>> I will be really glad to use yours :) You know, I am kind of a programmer.
>>> It means that making icons is not my work. And due to that, it takes me ages
>>> to do them.
>>> I have no problem to change them at all, but I really don't have time to do
>>> them.
>>>
>> so then go finish arts and design schools (min 5 years each). and only
>> then you may get back and continue working on nautilus! Hurry up. :)
>
> I will think about that :)
>
>>> 7) Why we have a button panel (which is in fact a toolbar) in the middle of
>>> the browser and not where it belongs: on top? this is a remain of OB, who
>>> took this from old Browser... but conceptually (as in usability terms), this
>>> is a not-good solution. We could think on change this and place the button
>>> bar where it belongs (and add some cool keybindings too)
>>>
>>>
>>> You can't say that the hierarchy button is to far, and ask for putting the
>>> toolbar on top ^^
>>> It's here because it's close to the lists (where you spend 20% of your time)
>>> and also close to the source code (where you spend 80% of your time).
>>>
>>> 8) different sized buttons are a really bad concept. Yes... in Smalltalk
>>> this is very common: to create buttons with the size of text... but this is
>>> bad design because disrupts harmony, and that hurts to the eyes... and when
>>> something hurts, you try not to use it :)
>>>
>>>
>>> I can't agree more. But buttons are kind of a pain in the ass (because they
>>> are embedded into a group morph with its own layout etc). As soon as I can
>>> set
>>> vResizing: #rigid; hResizing: #rigid, I'll do it for sure ^^
>>>
>>>
>>> yeah.. most of my observations are also for any other tool we have, and most
>>> are about usability... I humbly recommend (for all people doing GUIs), the
>>> lecture of this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_Make_Me_Think. It
>>> is for web design, but is also a great guide when you want to make things
>>> people like.
>>>
>>> (Also, reading apple design guide is a good way to notice some interesting
>>> things... those guys had invest an insanely amount of time and money in
>>> development them)
>>>
>>>
>>> I will try to find time to read them, but as I said, my exams are in 11 days
>>> so ;)
>>>
>> no. arts school first.
>
> I just finished my registration ;)
>
>>
>> ohh.. nothing is perfect. changes are not always better to what we had.
>> but staying is worst of everything.
>> just keep pushing.
>>
>> I can also easily tell what i don't like in Nautilus. Much harder is
>> to propose alternative.
>> I think that feedback about UI should always come with alternative,
>> explaining why you think its better. Or if one feels that old ways is
>> better he should argument that (an argument 'because i get used to it'
>> is WRONG argument ;).
>>
>> Today i had full day hacking using Nautilus. And found some bugs. Hope
>> next iteration they will be fixed. :)
>> There are some rough corners here and there, but overall impression -
>> it is quite good.
>> I will be starting giving more feedback once i will get used to it.
>> Because 1 day is too little to say anything definitive.. i need more
>> immersion to make my feedback more problem-oriented, not tainted by "i
>> don't like it because it different" attitude.
>
> I am waiting for your feedback so :)
>
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the feedback :)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko.
>>
>
>

>
> On Mar 8, 2012, at 8:25 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm using Nautilus for my current projects since... well... couple of days, and I have some  feedback:
>>
>> (yeah... maybe they are dumb reports, but that's because you did a great work with nautilus, I just have some really small observations :)
>>
>> 1) OB had double-click action: show hierarchy. I miss it a lot :(
>
> If you activate the "open a class on hierarchy" setting, it does the same :)
>
>> Also, hierarchy button is too far away when I want to see the hierarchy... ok, if you don't want to add double click functionality... can it be a menu option? (show hierarchy (h))
>
> Maybe I should switch the group button and the hierarchy button. It will make more sense :)
>
>> Even worst: it swaps panels which is very confusing... but that leads to point 2 :)
>
> There are some good arguments to do that :) But I am quite fed up to tell them again and again ^^
>
>> 2) swap panel configuration is not working for me in latest pharo 1.4
>
> Ie ?
>
>> 3) I find "Class", "Instance" buttons very confusing. I liked more the older solution but well, I understand you want to improve visibility of comments, but then, I think class button would be better as a "toggle" button (those buttons who stays pressed)
>
> Do you have an example of such a button ?
>
>> 4) bold for class side method and categories is too strong, I don't see any reason for that, we have panel titles and future ;) toggle button to know which side is.
>
> Some people (Laurent not toell who) complain about the lack of visibility. And indeed, I found than when you have multiples browsers, it helps a lot to find where you are in a second.
>
>> 5) OB had a #browserIcon method on classes who changed class icon on browser. This is really useful for knowing different types/hierarchies like errors, announcements, morphs, etc. Again, this collides with "uncommented" icon, but I would like to have them back...
>
> There are icons for Morph/Erros/Announcements/Magnitude/String/Collection/etc... But maybe I could also add a mechanism to let each class defines it's own icon.
>
>> 6) I'm sorry for saying this, but I don't like the icons, nor the colored options (source, bytecode, decompiled, etc.) at the side. I would prefer a combo on button panel... and better looking icons (yes Stef, FamFam icons is ok :)
>
> I will be really glad to use yours :) You know, I am kind of a programmer. It means that making icons is not my work. And due to that, it takes me ages to do them.
> I have no problem to change them at all, but I really don't have time to do them.
>
>> 7) Why we have a button panel (which is in fact a toolbar) in the middle of the browser and not where it belongs: on top? this is a remain of OB, who took this from old Browser... but conceptually (as in usability terms), this is a not-good solution. We could think on change this and place the button bar where it belongs (and add some cool keybindings too)
>
> You can't say that the hierarchy button is to far, and ask for putting the toolbar on top ^^
> It's here because it's close to the lists (where you spend 20% of your time) and also close to the source code (where you spend 80% of your time).
>
>> 8) different sized buttons are a really bad concept. Yes... in Smalltalk this is very common: to create buttons with the size of text... but this is bad design because disrupts harmony, and that hurts to the eyes... and when something hurts, you try not to use it :)
>
> I can't agree more. But buttons are kind of a pain in the ass (because they are embedded into a group morph with its own layout etc). As soon as I can set
> vResizing: #rigid; hResizing: #rigid, I'll do it for sure ^^
>
>>
>> yeah.. most of my observations are also for any other tool we have, and most are about usability... I humbly recommend (for all people doing GUIs), the lecture of this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_Make_Me_Think. It is for web design, but is also a great guide when you want to make things people like.
>>
>> (Also, reading apple design guide is a good way to notice some interesting things... those guys had invest an insanely amount of time and money in development them)
>>
>
> I will try to find time to read them, but as I said, my exams are in 11 days so ;)
>
>
> Thanks for the feedback :)
>
> Ben
>
>> best,
>> Esteban
>>
>

>
> Igor Stasenko wrote
>>
>> so then go finish arts and design schools (min 5 years each). and only
>> then you may get back and continue working on nautilus! Hurry up. :)
>>
>> I can also easily tell what i don't like in Nautilus. Much harder is
>> to propose alternative.
>>
> So after finishing art school i propose a better UI in the attached drawing.
> It gets rid of all Toggle-Buttons except one for the comments:
>
> http://forum.world.st/file/n4459175/nautilusui.jpg 
>
> Good Luck with the exams, Helene.
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/more-Nautilus-feed-back-tp4457416p4459175.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

>
> Igor Stasenko wrote
>>
>> so then go finish arts and design schools (min 5 years each). and only
>> then you may get back and continue working on nautilus! Hurry up. :)
>>
>> I can also easily tell what i don't like in Nautilus. Much harder is
>> to propose alternative.
>>
> So after finishing art school i propose a better UI in the attached drawing.
> It gets rid of all Toggle-Buttons except one for the comments:
>
> http://forum.world.st/file/n4459175/nautilusui.jpg
>

> On 9 March 2012 13:27, Helene Bilbo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Igor Stasenko wrote
>>>
>>> so then go finish arts and design schools (min 5 years each). and only
>>> then you may get back and continue working on nautilus! Hurry up. :)
>>>
>>> I can also easily tell what i don't like in Nautilus. Much harder is
>>> to propose alternative.
>>>
>> So after finishing art school i propose a better UI in the attached drawing.
>> It gets rid of all Toggle-Buttons except one for the comments:
>>
>> http://forum.world.st/file/n4459175/nautilusui.jpg
>>
>
> Breadcrumbs!, I want breadcrumbsss!!

> And search bar. And back/forward buttons.
> And other custom stuff which others can put at toolbar via plugin mechanism.
>
>> Good Luck with the exams, Helene.
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/more-Nautilus-feed-back-tp4457416p4459175.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>