newbie questions
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I have been looking for a language and a web application framework to redo the db app that I manage. I am also looking or a language and platform to really grow into and call my home.
The app I maintain was constructed with ERW, by Sebastiano Vigna, which is a very early PHP framework the real value of which is in the Java database optimization tool ERTool. ERW is not viable because of the PHP, but ERTool is really neat, and Vigna is a genius. However, my predecessor, the creator of this app, had to do some big-time hacking to get Japanese working on it, and he left before everything was done. The result is that now the app itself is spaghetti PHP, and it is getting harder and harder to get through the day without wishing death on the db. I have narrowed down my choices to Seaside and Django. I know little Python and less Smalltalk, but I am itching to get away from PHP and Perl. I love the philosophies of both projects, so I am just trying to decide based on which meets the needs of my job. All of my work must be bilingual Japanese and English, and while I know that Oshima-san has created a multilingual Squeak, I am hesitant to invest time in a framework that relies on a programming language the i18n of which is tacked on. I had enough of that with PHP. Is anyone using Seaside with multibyte characters? I also wonder about document generation. Is there a PDF or OpenOffice.org document generator that can be used with Seaside apps? My app is a college administration and info management system, and I have to dynamically produce printable documents in both English and Japanese. In fact, everything in the system has to switch between J and E. Relational databases: I have a database with lots of data in it, and I need to accommodate that relational DB. Avi has said in several interviews that he doesn't like relational db's, so does that mean that Seaside doesn't work well with them? I can't imagine that would be the case, since he wrote DabbleDB. With Django, relational db's are the main thing, and you can either define everything in Python and generate the DB or work backward from an SQL data definition file and generate the Django webapp. Lastly, I wonder why I couldn't get Seaside to work this morning on my Tiger OS 10.4 machine. I downloaded the Mac dev package by Cassou and followed the directions, but when I try to open Seaside, I get a "a primitive has failed" error. I get the same when I try to open the regular Squeak 3.9 image and then try to install Seaside through SqueakMap or Universe when it tries "Installing DynamicBindings version 2.7" after I click "Install Selections". I can't even figure out how to copy and paste the error messages into this email. I was really interested in the way that Avi talked about how the VM allows the app to be more portable, but it seems that, from my experiences so far, that is not the case. Technically, from what I have read and heard on podcast interviews, I am inclined to choose Squeak/Seaside, but the lack of documentation and brainshare is daunting. Django is really taking off, and it is a get-things-done kinda framework, which also appeals to me. While Seaside sounds like geek heaven, my first impression is that, with the extensive Python libraries out there, Django might be a more practical and productive choice. But when I think about joining a community, I am pulled to Seaside. Lack of docs is a big drawback, but I am pretty good at documentation and writing, so I might be of more help to Seaside as a documentation-writing, evangelizing community member, if I can ever get over this learning curve. Miyazaki, Japan (GMT+9, no DST) _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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> Is anyone using Seaside with multibyte characters?
It is should work, but I don't know if anybody actually uses multibyte characters. For example an unprepared test on my blog: http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/blog/studenckifestwal > I also wonder about document generation. Is there a PDF or OpenOffice.org > document generator that can be used with Seaside apps? My app is a college > administration and info management system, and I have to dynamically produce > printable documents in both English and Japanese. In fact, everything in the > system has to switch between J and E. There are some packages that do that kind of things. > Relational databases: I have a database with lots of data in it, and I need > to accommodate that relational DB. Avi has said in several interviews that > he doesn't like relational db's, so does that mean that Seaside doesn't work > well with them? I can't imagine that would be the case, since he wrote > DabbleDB. With Django, relational db's are the main thing, and you can > either define everything in Python and generate the DB or work backward from > an SQL data definition file and generate the Django webapp. Seaside is a web application framework, and not a persistency mapper. It is up to you what kind of persistency mechanism you are going to use. Smalltalk programmers usually prefer object-databases of some kind, but I have also worked on projects where relational databases were used. There are frameworks like ROE and GLORP that can do some automatic object mapping for you. > Lastly, I wonder why I couldn't get Seaside to work this morning on my Tiger > OS 10.4 machine. I downloaded the Mac dev package by Cassou and followed the > directions, but when I try to open Seaside, I get a "a primitive has failed" > error. I get the same when I try to open the regular Squeak 3.9 image and > then try to install Seaside through SqueakMap or Universe when it tries > "Installing DynamicBindings version 2.7" after I click "Install Selections". > I can't even figure out how to copy and paste the error messages into this > email. Take the One-Click experience from www.seaside.st (the download link on the front-page) or another image available from that web-site. They all come with Seaside pre-installed and work out of the box. Cheers, Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Micheal Cooper
On 12/17/07, Micheal Cooper <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Michael, > All of my work must be bilingual Japanese and English, and while I know that > Oshima-san has created a multilingual Squeak, I am hesitant to invest time > in a framework that relies on a programming language the i18n of which is > tacked on. I had enough of that with PHP. > > Is anyone using Seaside with multibyte characters? As a data point, and not because I necessarily suggest doing the same: we do support multibyte data in Dabble DB, but not using the Squeak 3.8 multibyte support. We use UTF8 for requests and responses, but internally we use a normal String (with one byte characters), and for the most part treat text as opaque binary data. In cases where it cannot be opaque (for example, when truncating to a certain number of charaters), we use some minimal UTF8-aware operations like #nextUTF8 on ReadStream. All in all, this has worked surprisingly well, but I can imagine that for heavy text processing it would be woefully inadequate. > I also wonder about document generation. Is there a PDF or OpenOffice.org > document generator that can be used with Seaside apps? My app is a college > administration and info management system, and I have to dynamically produce > printable documents in both English and Japanese. In fact, everything in the > system has to switch between J and E. We have a PDF generation system that is external to Seaside/Squeak - it takes HTML input and produces very nice PDF output, with settings for paper size, page break policies, etc. We're toying with the idea of licensing this to other developers who need a similar capability, possibly as a hosted service. Alternatively, I know NetStyle got some good results out of the pure-Smalltalk SPDF library. One path I've been down and regretted is generating XSL/FO and processing that into PDF. > Relational databases: I have a database with lots of data in it, and I need > to accommodate that relational DB. Avi has said in several interviews that > he doesn't like relational db's, so does that mean that Seaside doesn't work > well with them? Not really. Unlike Django or Rails, Seaside is persistence-agnostic. Many people write Seaside apps backed by relational DBs; probably the most common framework used for this is GLORP. ROE another option - something I wrote a while ago but have never used in anger. And for the record, it's not that I don't like relational DBs. I do very much dislike O/R mapping. > Lastly, I wonder why I couldn't get Seaside to work this morning on my Tiger > OS 10.4 machine. I downloaded the Mac dev package by Cassou and followed the > directions, but when I try to open Seaside, I get a "a primitive has failed" > error. I get the same when I try to open the regular Squeak 3.9 image and > then try to install Seaside through SqueakMap or Universe when it tries > "Installing DynamicBindings version 2.7" after I click "Install Selections". > I can't even figure out how to copy and paste the error messages into this > email. That's a shame - I don't think that particularly has anything to do with portability, but it certainly sounds like we can improve our initial experience. I see that Lukas has pointed you to the one-click distribution, hopefully you'll have better luck with that. As for error messages: check for a SqueakDebug.log file in the same directory as your image file. This is a good thing to email. Avi _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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2007/12/17, Avi Bryant <[hidden email]>:
> On 12/17/07, Micheal Cooper <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > > All of my work must be bilingual Japanese and English, and while I know that > > Oshima-san has created a multilingual Squeak, I am hesitant to invest time > > in a framework that relies on a programming language the i18n of which is > > tacked on. I had enough of that with PHP. > > > > Is anyone using Seaside with multibyte characters? > > As a data point, and not because I necessarily suggest doing the same: > we do support multibyte data in Dabble DB, but not using the Squeak > 3.8 multibyte support. We use UTF8 for requests and responses, but > internally we use a normal String (with one byte characters), and for > the most part treat text as opaque binary data. In cases where it > cannot be opaque (for example, when truncating to a certain number of > charaters), we use some minimal UTF8-aware operations like #nextUTF8 > on ReadStream. > > All in all, this has worked surprisingly well, but I can imagine that > for heavy text processing it would be woefully inadequate. > > > I also wonder about document generation. Is there a PDF or OpenOffice.org > > document generator that can be used with Seaside apps? My app is a college > > administration and info management system, and I have to dynamically produce > > printable documents in both English and Japanese. In fact, everything in the > > system has to switch between J and E. > > We have a PDF generation system that is external to Seaside/Squeak - > it takes HTML input and produces very nice PDF output, with settings > for paper size, page break policies, etc. We're toying with the idea > of licensing this to other developers who need a similar capability, > possibly as a hosted service. > > Alternatively, I know NetStyle got some good results out of the > pure-Smalltalk SPDF library. only if you're masochistic. Think table layout with old Seaside renderer and absolute positioning and you get an idea. Cheers Philippe > One path I've been down and regretted is generating XSL/FO and > processing that into PDF. > > > Relational databases: I have a database with lots of data in it, and I need > > to accommodate that relational DB. Avi has said in several interviews that > > he doesn't like relational db's, so does that mean that Seaside doesn't work > > well with them? > > Not really. Unlike Django or Rails, Seaside is persistence-agnostic. > Many people write Seaside apps backed by relational DBs; probably the > most common framework used for this is GLORP. ROE another option - > something I wrote a while ago but have never used in anger. > > And for the record, it's not that I don't like relational DBs. I do > very much dislike O/R mapping. > > > Lastly, I wonder why I couldn't get Seaside to work this morning on my Tiger > > OS 10.4 machine. I downloaded the Mac dev package by Cassou and followed the > > directions, but when I try to open Seaside, I get a "a primitive has failed" > > error. I get the same when I try to open the regular Squeak 3.9 image and > > then try to install Seaside through SqueakMap or Universe when it tries > > "Installing DynamicBindings version 2.7" after I click "Install Selections". > > I can't even figure out how to copy and paste the error messages into this > > email. > > That's a shame - I don't think that particularly has anything to do > with portability, but it certainly sounds like we can improve our > initial experience. > > I see that Lukas has pointed you to the one-click distribution, > hopefully you'll have better luck with that. > > As for error messages: check for a SqueakDebug.log file in the same > directory as your image file. This is a good thing to email. > > Avi > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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Getting such quick responses from the people whose videos and interviews and papers I have been watching/ listening to/ reading is a thrill, like seeing a movie star at a restaurant. Thank you. I will start from scratch and try the one-click experience. Thank you so much.
-- Miyazaki, Japan (GMT+9, no DST) _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Avi Bryant-2
On Dec 17, 2007 5:56 AM, Avi Bryant <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 12/17/07, Micheal Cooper <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I also wonder about document generation. Is there a PDF or OpenOffice.org > > document generator that can be used with Seaside apps? My app is a college > > administration and info management system, and I have to dynamically produce > > printable documents in both English and Japanese. In fact, everything in the > > system has to switch between J and E. > > We have a PDF generation system that is external to Seaside/Squeak - > it takes HTML input and produces very nice PDF output, with settings > for paper size, page break policies, etc. We're toying with the idea > of licensing this to other developers who need a similar capability, > possibly as a hosted service. One of the best xml 2 pdf generators around is Prince XML <http://www.princexml.com/>, from one of the CSS creators and Opera development leader, Håkon Wium Lie, its ACID2 compliant, and very fast. Unfortunately it's price is high for super small startups, but if the volume and quality requires it, it's one, if not the best, solution around. Regards, -- Esteban A. Maringolo [hidden email] _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: newbie questions
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In reply to this post by Micheal Cooper
There's also pdfreactor, just google it. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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