(no subject)

Lucas,

I do not expect magic, but I do expect it to work, and failing that, candor re limitations.  IMHO, the real problem has been a sort of XP snobbery: it appears that those building or integrating what would otherwise be a wonderful tool, have zero interest in preserving comments, and even some contempt for those of who write them.  It is far easier to impugn those suggesting improvements than to make it work or to inetegrate fixes.  I will spare you second-hand comments about what has been done in other languages and editors, as I have never encountered an RB anywhere but Smalltalk.

I am perfectly happy using the RB only for things where it does not reformat.  If it turns out that #promptOnRefactoring meets my needs and/or if format-preservation works, I will extend my use accordingly.

Thanks for working on it.

Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lukas Renggli
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:55 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] (no subject)

> Interesting news about #promptOnRefactoring. However, you are the first person involved with the RB to ever mention it to me.  Previously, I was simply told that commenting methods is a waste of time and I would be happier and healthier if I would change my misguided ways.

Don Roberts and John Brant improved the refactoring engine a lot in 2002. I assume that there was some pressure from the VisualWorks and Dolphin folks. Unfortunately Squeak and Pharo people were stuck with the refactoring code from the last century.

> Obviously, I take a different view of it, and all the more so having recently ported a lot of aging code to Pharo; comments saved my skin yet again.  If the RB can be made to respect them, I will eagerly use it.

I think the situation is much better now, but you cannot expect magic.

Lukas

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> IMHO, the real problem has been a sort of XP snobbery: it appears that those building or integrating what would otherwise be a wonderful tool, have zero interest in preserving comments, and even some contempt for those of who write them.

This has nothing to do with snobbery, it is a technical issue.

> I will spare you second-hand comments about what has been done in other languages and editors, as I have never encountered an RB anywhere but Smalltalk.

I know the refactoring engine of Eclipse. It must be 20 years ahead of
Smalltalk.

When saying that one must keep in mind that printing Java code so that
it preserves the formatting is easier than to do the same with
Smalltalk. Even if they have to handle 100+ AST node types
individually, they all have a very strict structure and are rarely
nested in unpredictable ways. Furthermore since the editor expands,
completes, indents and formats a lot of code automatically anyway,
people don't even notice when their code gets reformatted.

Lukas

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Lukas,

I'm not accusing you of snobbery, but it has been _obvious_ elsewhere, and it certainly has not helped advance the cause.

Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lukas Renggli
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] (no subject)

> IMHO, the real problem has been a sort of XP snobbery: it appears that those building or integrating what would otherwise be a wonderful tool, have zero interest in preserving comments, and even some contempt for those of who write them.

This has nothing to do with snobbery, it is a technical issue.

> I will spare you second-hand comments about what has been done in other languages and editors, as I have never encountered an RB anywhere but Smalltalk.

I know the refactoring engine of Eclipse. It must be 20 years ahead of Smalltalk.

When saying that one must keep in mind that printing Java code so that it preserves the formatting is easier than to do the same with Smalltalk. Even if they have to handle 100+ AST node types individually, they all have a very strict structure and are rarely nested in unpredictable ways. Furthermore since the editor expands, completes, indents and formats a lot of code automatically anyway, people don't even notice when their code gets reformatted.

Lukas

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On Nov 22, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote:

>> IMHO, the real problem has been a sort of XP snobbery: it appears that those building or integrating what would otherwise be a wonderful tool, have zero interest in preserving comments, and even some contempt for those of who write them.
>
> This has nothing to do with snobbery, it is a technical issue.
>
>> I will spare you second-hand comments about what has been done in other languages and editors, as I have never encountered an RB anywhere but Smalltalk.
>
> I know the refactoring engine of Eclipse. It must be 20 years ahead of
> Smalltalk.

Not sure because it is full of bugs because Java is complex.
Now if you give me one engineering for 6 months I guess we can catch up and what you are doing is cool.
At Smalltalk diego "gneffer" show a realy extension to RB (and really simple to implement)
where you could select a couple of methods and it would check duplicated code and extract the methods
automatically.

> When saying that one must keep in mind that printing Java code so that
> it preserves the formatting is easier than to do the same with
> Smalltalk. Even if they have to handle 100+ AST node types
> individually, they all have a very strict structure and are rarely
> nested in unpredictable ways. Furthermore since the editor expands,
> completes, indents and formats a lot of code automatically anyway,
> people don't even notice when their code gets reformatted.

I know that we discuss the placement of comment with gwenael too.
I think that some heuristics may help.
And probably with the simple pretty printer of damien.

Stef

> Lukas Renggli
> http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
>
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On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Stéphane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I know the refactoring engine of Eclipse. It must be 20 years ahead of Smalltalk.
>
> Not sure because it is full of bugs because Java is complex.

I use Eclipse and its refactorings everyday. They work quite well.

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Is there a kind of comparison table of the features available in Eclipse versus the Smalltalks' RBs?

I wonder where are they 20 years ahead?!

Em 24/11/2009 15:08, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> escreveu:

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Stéphane Ducasse
 wrote:
>> I know the refactoring engine of Eclipse. It must be 20 years ahead of Smalltalk.
>
> Not sure because it is full of bugs because Java is complex.

I use Eclipse and its refactorings everyday. They work quite well.


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>>>>> "Lukas" == Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]> writes:

Lukas> I know the refactoring engine of Eclipse. It must be 20 years ahead of
Lukas> Smalltalk.

Ironic, since Eclipse was originally written in Smalltalk. :)

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> Is there a kind of comparison table of the features available in Eclipse versus the Smalltalks' RBs?

I was not talking about feature completeness, I was more talking about
the usability of the editor and how the different tools integrate. It
is impressive that you see the renaming happening live in Eclipse
while you type a new class/variable/method name.

I don't know of a single refactoring in Eclipse that is not available
in Smalltalk, of course excluding some of the refactorings that mangle
with types, packages or inner-class  and that do not make sense in the
context of Smalltalk. Furthermore the Smalltalk refactoring engine
provides an universal code transformation engine that allows one to
script new transformations (refactorings) within seconds. This is
something that I have not yet seen in any other language with that
sophistication.

Lukas

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OK, So it is the 'ergonomics' of the tool that makes you feel it is years ahead...

Usability is a very difficult thing to measure and/or evaluate.  

Regards,

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Em 24/11/2009 15:55, Lukas Renggli <[hidden email]> escreveu:


> Is there a kind of comparison table of the features available in Eclipse versus the Smalltalks' RBs?

I was not talking about feature completeness, I was more talking about
the usability of the editor and how the different tools integrate. It
is impressive that you see the renaming happening live in Eclipse
while you type a new class/variable/method name.

I don't know of a single refactoring in Eclipse that is not available
in Smalltalk, of course excluding some of the refactorings that mangle
with types, packages or inner-class  and that do not make sense in the
context of Smalltalk. Furthermore the Smalltalk refactoring engine
provides an universal code transformation engine that allows one to
script new transformations (refactorings) within seconds. This is
something that I have not yet seen in any other language with that
sophistication.

Lukas

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There are least two papers from ECOOP that points to some problems.
But probably they are not frequent.

Stef

On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:08 PM, Damien Cassou wrote:


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On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote:

>> Is there a kind of comparison table of the features available in Eclipse versus the Smalltalks' RBs?
>
> I was not talking about feature completeness, I was more talking about
> the usability of the editor and how the different tools integrate. It
> is impressive that you see the renaming happening live in Eclipse
> while you type a new class/variable/method name.

yes the usability is clearly not the best aspect of smalltalk right now.


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