not a smalltalk!

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not a smalltalk!

mayuresh
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Re: not a smalltalk!

Uko2
There is a long story about all that.

But to be short:
- if you call it Smalltalk then you have to make it compatible with other Smalltalks. And they are a lot in the 80s…
- we want to make something new and cool what may be not always compatible.

So yeah

On 05 Sep 2014, at 20:25, Mayuresh Kathe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> hey, i've just been reading up the pharo forums, and one of the posts/entries mentions something about pharo not being a smalltalk, but instead a dialect!
>
> is it true?
>
> that would mean, all or any code i write for pharo would not be portable to other smalltalk-80 systems!
>
> hmnn...
>
> ~mayuresh
>
>


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Re: not a smalltalk!

kilon.alios
AFAIK Pharo technically is not even compatible with Squeak which is where it forks form. 

You assume the code you write will automatically be incompatible to smalltalk-80 but since pretty much a huge percentage of the functionality of Pharo and Smalltalk is in libraries since the language itself is so minimal , I dont think it would be so hard to make your Pharo code smalltalk-80 friendly. 

I advice doing your own tests and seeing for yourself. Then ask questions how to solve problems you encounter. No reason to panic before facing the facts :)


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is a long story about all that.

But to be short:
- if you call it Smalltalk then you have to make it compatible with other Smalltalks. And they are a lot in the 80s…
- we want to make something new and cool what may be not always compatible.

So yeah

On 05 Sep 2014, at 20:25, Mayuresh Kathe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> hey, i've just been reading up the pharo forums, and one of the posts/entries mentions something about pharo not being a smalltalk, but instead a dialect!
>
> is it true?
>
> that would mean, all or any code i write for pharo would not be portable to other smalltalk-80 systems!
>
> hmnn...
>
> ~mayuresh
>
>



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Re: not a smalltalk!

EstebanLM
In reply to this post by mayuresh
no smalltalk around is “smalltalk”, technically they are all dialects and Pharo is just one dialect more.
smalltalk-80 itself does not exist since… well, smalltalk-80 :)

so no, your code would not be directly portable to other smalltalks (with the possible exception of gemstone).

Esteban

On 05 Sep 2014, at 20:25, Mayuresh Kathe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> hey, i've just been reading up the pharo forums, and one of the posts/entries mentions something about pharo not being a smalltalk, but instead a dialect!
>
> is it true?
>
> that would mean, all or any code i write for pharo would not be portable to other smalltalk-80 systems!
>
> hmnn...
>
> ~mayuresh
>
>


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Re: not a smalltalk!

Peter Kenny
In reply to this post by kilon.alios

I don’t know what technical incompatibilities may exist, but for many practicalities Pharo is compatible with Squeak and other dialects. I am using an application (Todd Blanchard’s HTMCSS parser and validator) which was originally written for Squeak. Some years ago I ported it to Dolphin Smalltalk, with no change other than replacing Squeak’s left-arrow assignment with :=, and just two weeks ago I downloaded it from the Squeak repository on smalltalkhub.com and installed it in Pharo 3.0; it is now working perfectly with no changes from the Squeak version. If someone were developing such a package now in Pharo, it might be tempting to use the Zinc library for the input of web pages, and that might cause portability problems. Similarly, if you develop something with an elaborate user interface in Pharo, you may find that the UI code does not port easily (or at all). But the core language of Pharo (and the language in which the libraries are written) is definitely Smalltalk.

 

In reply to Yuriy, there are languages around which do call themselves Smalltalk, but which do not implement essential parts of standard Smalltalk. So where does the ‘have to make it compatible’ come from?

 

Peter Kenny

 

From: Pharo-users [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of kilon alios
Sent: 05 September 2014 19:46
To: Any question about pharo is welcome
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] not a smalltalk!

 

AFAIK Pharo technically is not even compatible with Squeak which is where it forks form. 

 

You assume the code you write will automatically be incompatible to smalltalk-80 but since pretty much a huge percentage of the functionality of Pharo and Smalltalk is in libraries since the language itself is so minimal , I dont think it would be so hard to make your Pharo code smalltalk-80 friendly. 

 

I advice doing your own tests and seeing for yourself. Then ask questions how to solve problems you encounter. No reason to panic before facing the facts :)

 

On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is a long story about all that.

But to be short:
- if you call it Smalltalk then you have to make it compatible with other Smalltalks. And they are a lot in the 80s…
- we want to make something new and cool what may be not always compatible.

So yeah


On 05 Sep 2014, at 20:25, Mayuresh Kathe <[hidden email]> wrote:


> hey, i've just been reading up the pharo forums, and one of the posts/entries mentions something about pharo not being a smalltalk, but instead a dialect!
>
> is it true?
>
> that would mean, all or any code i write for pharo would not be portable to other smalltalk-80 systems!
>
> hmnn...
>
> ~mayuresh
>
>

 

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Re: not a smalltalk!

EstebanLM
yes… 99% of the time Pharo and Squeak will be compatible. 
we share the vm and a large part of the codebase. 
but libraries are slowly diverging so you might find that what works in the one does not works automatically in the other. 

but again… my point is that all smalltalks are dialects… there is no such thing as a reference implementation :)

Esteban

On 06 Sep 2014, at 10:54, PBKResearch <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don’t know what technical incompatibilities may exist, but for many practicalities Pharo is compatible with Squeak and other dialects. I am using an application (Todd Blanchard’s HTMCSS parser and validator) which was originally written for Squeak. Some years ago I ported it to Dolphin Smalltalk, with no change other than replacing Squeak’s left-arrow assignment with :=, and just two weeks ago I downloaded it from the Squeak repository on smalltalkhub.com and installed it in Pharo 3.0; it is now working perfectly with no changes from the Squeak version. If someone were developing such a package now in Pharo, it might be tempting to use the Zinc library for the input of web pages, and that might cause portability problems. Similarly, if you develop something with an elaborate user interface in Pharo, you may find that the UI code does not port easily (or at all). But the core language of Pharo (and the language in which the libraries are written) is definitely Smalltalk.
 
In reply to Yuriy, there are languages around which do call themselves Smalltalk, but which do not implement essential parts of standard Smalltalk. So where does the ‘have to make it compatible’ come from?
 
Peter Kenny
 
From: Pharo-users [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of kilon alios
Sent: 05 September 2014 19:46
To: Any question about pharo is welcome
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] not a smalltalk!
 
AFAIK Pharo technically is not even compatible with Squeak which is where it forks form. 
 
You assume the code you write will automatically be incompatible to smalltalk-80 but since pretty much a huge percentage of the functionality of Pharo and Smalltalk is in libraries since the language itself is so minimal , I dont think it would be so hard to make your Pharo code smalltalk-80 friendly. 
 
I advice doing your own tests and seeing for yourself. Then ask questions how to solve problems you encounter. No reason to panic before facing the facts :)

 

On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is a long story about all that.

But to be short:
- if you call it Smalltalk then you have to make it compatible with other Smalltalks. And they are a lot in the 80s…
- we want to make something new and cool what may be not always compatible.

So yeah


On 05 Sep 2014, at 20:25, Mayuresh Kathe <[hidden email]> wrote:


> hey, i've just been reading up the pharo forums, and one of the posts/entries mentions something about pharo not being a smalltalk, but instead a dialect!
>
> is it true?
>
> that would mean, all or any code i write for pharo would not be portable to other smalltalk-80 systems!
>
> hmnn...
>
> ~mayuresh
>
>

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Re: not a smalltalk!

Sergi Reyner
In my opinion, this dialect thing is getting increasingly silly. And confusing. And silly.


2014-09-06 10:01 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
yes… 99% of the time Pharo and Squeak will be compatible. 
we share the vm and a large part of the codebase. 
but libraries are slowly diverging so you might find that what works in the one does not works automatically in the other. 

but again… my point is that all smalltalks are dialects… there is no such thing as a reference implementation :)

Esteban

On 06 Sep 2014, at 10:54, PBKResearch <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don’t know what technical incompatibilities may exist, but for many practicalities Pharo is compatible with Squeak and other dialects. I am using an application (Todd Blanchard’s HTMCSS parser and validator) which was originally written for Squeak. Some years ago I ported it to Dolphin Smalltalk, with no change other than replacing Squeak’s left-arrow assignment with :=, and just two weeks ago I downloaded it from the Squeak repository on smalltalkhub.com and installed it in Pharo 3.0; it is now working perfectly with no changes from the Squeak version. If someone were developing such a package now in Pharo, it might be tempting to use the Zinc library for the input of web pages, and that might cause portability problems. Similarly, if you develop something with an elaborate user interface in Pharo, you may find that the UI code does not port easily (or at all). But the core language of Pharo (and the language in which the libraries are written) is definitely Smalltalk.
 
In reply to Yuriy, there are languages around which do call themselves Smalltalk, but which do not implement essential parts of standard Smalltalk. So where does the ‘have to make it compatible’ come from?
 
Peter Kenny
 
From: Pharo-users [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of kilon alios
Sent: 05 September 2014 19:46
To: Any question about pharo is welcome
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] not a smalltalk!
 
AFAIK Pharo technically is not even compatible with Squeak which is where it forks form. 
 
You assume the code you write will automatically be incompatible to smalltalk-80 but since pretty much a huge percentage of the functionality of Pharo and Smalltalk is in libraries since the language itself is so minimal , I dont think it would be so hard to make your Pharo code smalltalk-80 friendly. 
 
I advice doing your own tests and seeing for yourself. Then ask questions how to solve problems you encounter. No reason to panic before facing the facts :)

 

On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is a long story about all that.

But to be short:
- if you call it Smalltalk then you have to make it compatible with other Smalltalks. And they are a lot in the 80s…
- we want to make something new and cool what may be not always compatible.

So yeah


On 05 Sep 2014, at 20:25, Mayuresh Kathe <[hidden email]> wrote:


> hey, i've just been reading up the pharo forums, and one of the posts/entries mentions something about pharo not being a smalltalk, but instead a dialect!
>
> is it true?
>
> that would mean, all or any code i write for pharo would not be portable to other smalltalk-80 systems!
>
> hmnn...
>
> ~mayuresh
>
>


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Re: not a smalltalk!

Ben Coman
Sergi Reyner wrote:
In my opinion, this dialect thing is getting increasingly silly. And confusing. And silly.

Identity and vision are important parts of community building.  I wasn't around when Pharo forked from Squeak, but I can see it was useful to build a separate identity to distinguish between the projects.  It helps bring those with similar vision along for the ride.  Shredding the shackles of backward compatibility required for some projects dug deep into Squeak seems like it was a significant factor at the time.   Today I think its remains beneficial to indicate this vision up front, so that people considering Pharo are not later "surprised" as Pharo moves towards its vision, if "all" they wanted was Smalltalk-80. 

cheers -ben

2014-09-06 10:01 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
yes… 99% of the time Pharo and Squeak will be compatible. 
we share the vm and a large part of the codebase. 
but libraries are slowly diverging so you might find that what works in the one does not works automatically in the other. 

but again… my point is that all smalltalks are dialects… there is no such thing as a reference implementation :)

Esteban

On 06 Sep 2014, at 10:54, PBKResearch <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don’t know what technical incompatibilities may exist, but for many practicalities Pharo is compatible with Squeak and other dialects. I am using an application (Todd Blanchard’s HTMCSS parser and validator) which was originally written for Squeak. Some years ago I ported it to Dolphin Smalltalk, with no change other than replacing Squeak’s left-arrow assignment with :=, and just two weeks ago I downloaded it from the Squeak repository on smalltalkhub.com and installed it in Pharo 3.0; it is now working perfectly with no changes from the Squeak version. If someone were developing such a package now in Pharo, it might be tempting to use the Zinc library for the input of web pages, and that might cause portability problems. Similarly, if you develop something with an elaborate user interface in Pharo, you may find that the UI code does not port easily (or at all). But the core language of Pharo (and the language in which the libraries are written) is definitely Smalltalk.
 
In reply to Yuriy, there are languages around which do call themselves Smalltalk, but which do not implement essential parts of standard Smalltalk. So where does the ‘have to make it compatible’ come from?
 
Peter Kenny
 
From: Pharo-users [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of kilon alios
Sent: 05 September 2014 19:46
To: Any question about pharo is welcome
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] not a smalltalk!
 
AFAIK Pharo technically is not even compatible with Squeak which is where it forks form. 
 
You assume the code you write will automatically be incompatible to smalltalk-80 but since pretty much a huge percentage of the functionality of Pharo and Smalltalk is in libraries since the language itself is so minimal , I dont think it would be so hard to make your Pharo code smalltalk-80 friendly. 
 
I advice doing your own tests and seeing for yourself. Then ask questions how to solve problems you encounter. No reason to panic before facing the facts :)

 

On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is a long story about all that.

But to be short:
- if you call it Smalltalk then you have to make it compatible with other Smalltalks. And they are a lot in the 80s…
- we want to make something new and cool what may be not always compatible.

So yeah


On 05 Sep 2014, at 20:25, Mayuresh Kathe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> hey, i've just been reading up the pharo forums, and one of the posts/entries mentions something about pharo not being a smalltalk, but instead a dialect!
>
> is it true?
>
> that would mean, all or any code i write for pharo would not be portable to other smalltalk-80 systems!
>
> hmnn...
>
> ~mayuresh
>
>




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Re: not a smalltalk!

stepharo
In reply to this post by Sergi Reyner

> In my opinion, this dialect thing is getting increasingly silly. And
> confusing. And silly.
>
It is not getting. It was like that already back in 1998 and before too.
The syntax is one thing the libraries are another one!

BTW I opened last year a VW from 1994 and I do not want to live there :)

Stef

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Re: not a smalltalk!

philippeback
In reply to this post by Sergi Reyner

I find myself saying Pharo Smalltalk and Github marks our code as Smalltalk.

Which is fine.

"Pharo is Pharo" indeed.

But the contents of the Blue Book still holds true.

What I do know is that I enjoy programming in Pharo more than with anything else.
VisualWorks may have more power but I can't stand its UI.

And who can beat such an all MIT codebase that one can actually make sense of?

At the moment I am running Pharo every single day for all day long and it is a great recurring  experience.

Long live Pharo!

And to hell with that Smalltalk or not thing.

Phil

Le 6 sept. 2014 15:32, "Sergi Reyner" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> In my opinion, this dialect thing is getting increasingly silly. And confusing. And silly.
>
>
> 2014-09-06 10:01 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> yes… 99% of the time Pharo and Squeak will be compatible. 
>> we share the vm and a large part of the codebase. 
>> but libraries are slowly diverging so you might find that what works in the one does not works automatically in the other. 
>>
>> but again… my point is that all smalltalks are dialects… there is no such thing as a reference implementation :)
>>
>> Esteban
>>
>> On 06 Sep 2014, at 10:54, PBKResearch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I don’t know what technical incompatibilities may exist, but for many practicalities Pharo is compatible with Squeak and other dialects. I am using an application (Todd Blanchard’s HTMCSS parser and validator) which was originally written for Squeak. Some years ago I ported it to Dolphin Smalltalk, with no change other than replacing Squeak’s left-arrow assignment with :=, and just two weeks ago I downloaded it from the Squeak repository on smalltalkhub.com and installed it in Pharo 3.0; it is now working perfectly with no changes from the Squeak version. If someone were developing such a package now in Pharo, it might be tempting to use the Zinc library for the input of web pages, and that might cause portability problems. Similarly, if you develop something with an elaborate user interface in Pharo, you may find that the UI code does not port easily (or at all). But the core language of Pharo (and the language in which the libraries are written) is definitely Smalltalk.
>>>  
>>> In reply to Yuriy, there are languages around which do call themselves Smalltalk, but which do not implement essential parts of standard Smalltalk. So where does the ‘have to make it compatible’ come from?
>>>  
>>> Peter Kenny
>>>  
>>> From: Pharo-users [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of kilon alios
>>> Sent: 05 September 2014 19:46
>>> To: Any question about pharo is welcome
>>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] not a smalltalk!
>>>  
>>> AFAIK Pharo technically is not even compatible with Squeak which is where it forks form. 
>>>  
>>> You assume the code you write will automatically be incompatible to smalltalk-80 but since pretty much a huge percentage of the functionality of Pharo and Smalltalk is in libraries since the language itself is so minimal , I dont think it would be so hard to make your Pharo code smalltalk-80 friendly. 
>>>  
>>> I advice doing your own tests and seeing for yourself. Then ask questions how to solve problems you encounter. No reason to panic before facing the facts :)
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There is a long story about all that.
>>>>
>>>> But to be short:
>>>> - if you call it Smalltalk then you have to make it compatible with other Smalltalks. And they are a lot in the 80s…
>>>> - we want to make something new and cool what may be not always compatible.
>>>>
>>>> So yeah
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 05 Sep 2014, at 20:25, Mayuresh Kathe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > hey, i've just been reading up the pharo forums, and one of the posts/entries mentions something about pharo not being a smalltalk, but instead a dialect!
>>>> >
>>>> > is it true?
>>>> >
>>>> > that would mean, all or any code i write for pharo would not be portable to other smalltalk-80 systems!
>>>> >
>>>> > hmnn...
>>>> >
>>>> > ~mayuresh
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>
>>
>

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Re: not a smalltalk!

Thierry Goubier
In reply to this post by stepharo
Le 06/09/2014 16:36, stepharo a écrit :
>
>> In my opinion, this dialect thing is getting increasingly silly. And
>> confusing. And silly.
>>
> It is not getting. It was like that already back in 1998 and before too.
Yes. Who remember the differences between Envy / Parcplace / Digitalk /
Smalltalk-mt / Smalltalk/X / Dolphin Smalltalk ?
>
> The syntax is one thing the libraries are another one!

>
> BTW I opened last year a VW from 1994 and I do not want to live there :)
But in 1992 it was a great place to be :)

Thierry
>
> Stef
>
>
>


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Re: not a smalltalk!

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
In reply to this post by philippeback

On 06 Sep 2014, at 17:42, [hidden email] wrote:

> At the moment I am running Pharo every single day for all day long and it is a great recurring  experience.

Good for you !


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Re: not a smalltalk!

Pierce Ng-3
In reply to this post by Thierry Goubier
On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 06:09:15PM +0200, Thierry Goubier wrote:
> Yes. Who remember the differences between Envy / Parcplace /
> Digitalk / Smalltalk-mt / Smalltalk/X / Dolphin Smalltalk ?

I still play with Smalltalk/X. It is very different from Pharo, but it is an
implementation of Smalltalk nonetheless, just like Pharo is.

Is there any true/pure Smalltalk-80 implementation in use still?

Pierce

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Re: not a smalltalk!

Sean P. DeNigris
Administrator
In reply to this post by Uko2
Uko2 wrote
about pharo not being a smalltalk... is it true?
Oh goodie... it's been a few weeks and I've been craving one of these threads ;)
Cheers,
Sean
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Re: not a smalltalk!

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

On 15 Sep 2014, at 23:47, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Uko2 wrote
>> about pharo not being a smalltalk... is it true?
>
> Oh goodie... it's been a few weeks and I've been craving one of these
> threads ;)

Actually, we were not talking about this at all when you were gone, it always starts when you are around ;-)
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Re: not a smalltalk!

kilon.alios
nuke it from orbit only way to be sure , this and "smalltalk is dead"

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 12:54 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 15 Sep 2014, at 23:47, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Uko2 wrote
>> about pharo not being a smalltalk... is it true?
>
> Oh goodie... it's been a few weeks and I've been craving one of these
> threads ;)

Actually, we were not talking about this at all when you were gone, it always starts when you are around ;-)

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Re: not a smalltalk!

NorbertHartl
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2


> Am 15.09.2014 um 23:54 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]>:
>
>
>> On 15 Sep 2014, at 23:47, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Uko2 wrote
>>> about pharo not being a smalltalk... is it true?
>>
>> Oh goodie... it's been a few weeks and I've been craving one of these
>> threads ;)
>
> Actually, we were not talking about this at all when you were gone, it always starts when you are around ;-)

Where's the like button? :)